831 réponses à ce sujet

[Slash1667]

lomifeh wrote...


I recall an interview where the Star Trek:TNG guys said that the borg as created was more than they realized.  They created something way too powerful and had to scramble to figure out ways to bring them back in line.

The ending, for me, is jarring for three reasons really.  The first being the lack of closure.  I've done all this stuff and I don't get to see what happened.  The second is the fact that it felt like all my decisions to that point were basically moot.  Nothing I did seemed to matter in the end, everything still ending crappy.  The third is that it just felt out of place for the way the story had gone until then.  It felt tacked on and rushed.  The logic used and the lack of explanation makes no sense considering the fact I had the Geth and Quarians fighting together and EDI/Joker were an item.  It showed the exact opposite of what the Starchild said. 

Now I accept the idea of Shep dying.  Of others dying too, but in this case all I see is Tali alive on some planet where she will probably die shortly due to the fact that she may have trouble maintaining her suit and her food will most likely run out.  Of course I have to wonder why is the Normandy in a relay stream at that point.  My crew would never leave like that, ever.  It was save earth or bust.  

Of course my perfect ending has me on some waterfront propery on Rannoch but hey ;)/

I remember that interview too and the weak and poorly developed is STRICTLY my opinion. The Reapers from ME and ME2 were, for lack of a better way of saying it, All-Powerful, yet not all-knowing or all-seeing, evil and irredemable monsters. Finding out they were just puppets, or drones using the Borg comparisons, just demenished them some how.

[Darkwulfjj]

I really hope they didn't do this ending for publicity and if they did one hell of a bad decision.

[Meruvian]

Just wanted to thank the OP. I hope someone at Bioware reads your post

[Baronesa]

Nice use of Silverman's meme face, OP

Made me lol

[Eternalsteelfan]

anexanhume wrote...

Genuine curiosity, OP how would you end it?

I don't really mess with fan fiction but give me a few days and a handle of vodka and I'll churn something out.

In all seriousness though, a lot would depend on how much free rein I have, something like removing the Crucible would have ramifications throughout the script. For simplicity's sake and the high quality of most of the game, I'd say the very earliest part I'd consider start making changes to would be the trench run on the Citadel beam. It's the climax and from there we have many ways we can branch out into the resolution.

Stream of consciousness (excuse the clutter and lack of organization):
I'd like to work with alternatives to the Catalyst as a character, cut the whole thing from the elevator raising the character above to the top of the Citadel, TIM should have been dealt with prior to the battle for Earth, more screen time for Harbinger, ,ore integration of war assets and specific war assets acquired. I think eveything about the Catalyst needs a rework and I'd tie it to an ultimate choice or choices the player has to make. Maybe the Catalyst needs to be fueled or triggered by something, some high cost has to be paid. Ultimate goal was always destruction of Reapers, I'd say that'd be my constant in the endings with the variables being things like: war assets - choice(s) made with the reworked Catalyst.

I'm in a game right now, but I have a few specific ideas. Will post later.

Simplest answer: Anderson and Shepherd sit on the control tower -> the Crucible fires, the Reapers are destroyed -> epilogue

Modifié par Eternalsteelfan, 16 mars 2012 - 09:27 .

[WarMachine919]

Intelligent and well thought post.Good job OP. That's all I wanted to say.

[Wildhide]

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

anexanhume wrote...

Genuine curiosity, OP how would you end it?

I don't really mess with fan fiction but give me a few days and a handle of vodka and I'll churn something out.

In all seriousness though, a lot would depend on how much free rein I have, something like removing the Crucible would have ramifications throughout the script. For simplicity's sake and the high quality of most of the game, I'd say the very earliest part I'd consider start making changes to would be the trench run on the Citadel beam. It's the climax and from there we have many ways we can branch out into the resolution.

Stream of consciousness (excuse the clutter and lack of organization):
I'd like to work with alternatives to the Catalyst as a character, cut the whole thing from the elevator raising the character above to the top of the Citadel, TIM should have been dealt with prior to the battle for Earth, more screen time for Harbinger, ,ore integration of war assets and specific war assets acquired. I think eveything about the Catalyst needs a rework and I'd tie it to an ultimate choice or choices the player has to make. Maybe the Catalyst needs to be fueled or triggered by something, some high cost has to be paid. Ultimate goal was always destruction of Reapers, I'd say that'd be my constant in the endings with the variables being things like: war assets - choice(s) made with the reworked Catalyst.

I'm in a game right now, but I have a few specific ideas. Will post later.

Simplest answer: Anderson and Shepherd sit on the control tower -> the Crucible fires, the Reapers are destroyed -> epilogue

Being as Harbringer was built up in 2 as the avatar of the reapers (replacing Sovereign in that role after 1), and his presence in the trench run I think the Catalyst should have revolved around him.  He's massive by reaper standards, he's likely one of a few primary reapers that organize the rest, perhaps even the original.  Why not have the Catalyst be something inside or part of him and turn the trench run into a massive organized effort to bring him down or get strike squads into him to take whatever it is.  Liara (or Javik if he wasn't DLC) could discover this for you.

The ease with which you succeed at it would be based on EMS.  Hell the people you recruit could change cut scenes during it.  It would be easy to make it flow the way the Suicide mission of 2 flowed, with having lower EMS causing squadmates or characters you know die.  (Didn't cure the Genophage, maybe Grunt dies.  Didn't unite the Geth and Quarians, the rep from whichever joins you dies since they're in a manner of speaking only halfway there).  Or a low enough score causes you and your current squadmates (Or maybe just your squadmates) to simply die.

You get into Harbringer, get what you need, maybe destroy him (There's your epic final stand-off with the beast for a boss) in some sort of multi-stage fight/assault, get back to the Crucible, insert catalyst... VICTORY.

Just off the top of my head.

Modifié par Wildhide, 16 mars 2012 - 09:35 .

[FilmDirector554]

Thank you for this post. If I ever end up in the director's chair for a film adaptation of Mass Effect 3...you're going to be the one writing the screenplay.

[GuilleCuba]

You're right, and I hope that Bioware takes all this into account next time they are writing an ending

[afflictionwisp]

Goodness, Eternalsteelfan, this pretty much sums up my thoughts in a much more elegant and learned way than I can manage. I'm glad you posted it, and I hope this thread catches the intention of someone important.

[komoshi]

pomrink wrote...

Bioware. Please read this

Yes... Please do!

[bwFex]

I sincerely apologize if you have already addressed the indoctrination theory. I ran through all of the comments, but it's very possible I may have missed it in my brief search. I would love to hear your opinion of it from a literary perspective.

I am a firm believer that there are clear signs throughout the entire game that Shepard is under mental attack - indoctrination by the Reapers. This is evidenced not only by the obvious evidence of indoctrination (the unusual behavior of the child on Earth, the dreams, the sequence with Anderson/TIM, and the fact that Shepard is seen alive after picking the red ending), but also by the more subtle transformation of Shepard from a confident hero into a broken, doubtful man who doesn't really even know if he's human any more. One of the primary signs of indoctrination, as witnessed in ME1/ME2 is the loss of higher mental capacity, which (according to the in-game Codex) "leaves the victim a gibbering animal."

While it's possible this was simply Bioware's attempt to show a man breaking under the stress of seemingly apocalyptic circumstances, I feel that the change is too dramatic and obvious to not be an indicator of something more significant. When paired with all of the other subtle hints and foreshadowing throughout the trilogy (such as Javik's comment that the Reapers used their own children against them, or Liara's comment in ME1 that Shepard has an unusually strong mind, or the events that took place in the Arrival DLC), it seems far too obvious to simply be coincidence. Thanks to the "Final Hours" app, we even know that Shepard's indoctrination played a role in the game's ending sequence as late as November.

As I'm sure you've already guessed, I subscribe to the theory that Harbinger, fearing that the allied forces of the galaxy may actually be strong enough to prove a significant threat to the Reapers, takes advantage of Shepard's adrenaline-fueled weakness in London and tries to attack his mind directly. As a result of that attack, everything seen after Shepard supposedly regains consciousness is, in fact, an internal vision - a hallucination or a dream. Within the first half of this hallucination, TIM represents the portion of Shepard's mind which Harbinger has successfully indoctrinated, and Anderson represents the portion of Shepard's mind which is still free. In the second half of the hallucination, the child represents Harbinger himself, speaking to Shepard from within his own mind. Picking the red option (which Harbinger tries to convince him will lead to the worst outcome) represents Shepard breaking free of indoctrination, while picking either of the other options (which Harbinger seems to encourage) represents falling for the same lies that Saren (green) or The Illusive Man (blue) feel into.

I personally feel that when interpreted as an indoctrination attempt, and with the assumption that we'll receive the true climax (and resolution) in an upcoming DLC (which serves to help EA circumvent secondhand game retailers), the "ending" we currently have is actually quite brilliant. In lieu of a traditional "final boss fight" using weapons of war, we fight against Harbinger's strongest weapon, indoctrination. Given that indoctrination was ultimately responsible for the behavior of the main antagonists introduced in ME1 (Saren, who chose the "green" path of synthesis) and ME2 (TIM, who chose the "blue" path of control), it seems very fitting that it is the Reaper's indoctrination, and not their military strength, which will serve as the final test for Shepard.

Modifié par bwFex, 16 mars 2012 - 10:40 .

[Joie de Combat]

Thank you very much for articulating all of this so clearly.

[Edje Edgar]

bwFex wrote...

I sincerely apologize if you have already addressed the indoctrination theory. I ran through all of the comments, but it's very possible I may have missed it in my brief search. I would love to hear your opinion of it from a literary perspective.

I am a firm believer that there are clear signs throughout the entire game that Shepard is under mental attack - indoctrination by the Reapers. This is evidenced not only by the obvious evidence of indoctrination (the unusual behavior of the child on Earth, the dreams, the sequence with Anderson/TIM, and the fact that Shepard is seen alive after picking the red ending), but also by the more subtle transformation of Shepard from a confident hero into a broken, doubtful man who doesn't really even know if he's human any more. One of the primary signs of indoctrination, as witnessed in ME1/ME2 is the loss of higher mental capacity, which (according to the in-game Codex) "leaves the victim a gibbering animal."

While it's possible this was simply Bioware's attempt to show a man breaking under the stress of seemingly apocalyptic circumstances, I feel that the change is too dramatic and obvious to not be an indicator of something more significant. When paired with all of the other subtle hints and foreshadowing throughout the trilogy (such as Javik's comment that the Reapers used their own children against them, or Liara's comment in ME1 that Shepard has an unusually strong mind, or the events that took place in the Arrival DLC), it seems far too obvious to simply be coincidence. Thanks to the "Final Hours" app, we even know that Shepard's indoctrination played a role in the game's ending sequence as late as November.

As I'm sure you've already guessed, I subscribe to the theory that Harbinger, fearing that the allied forces of the galaxy may actually be strong enough to prove a significant threat to the Reapers, takes advantage of Shepard's adrenaline-fueled weakness in London and tries to attack his mind directly. As a result of that attack, everything seen after Shepard supposedly regains consciousness is, in fact, an internal vision - a hallucination or a dream. Within the first half of this hallucination, TIM represents the portion of Shepard's mind which Harbinger has successfully indoctrinated, and Anderson represents the portion of Shepard's mind which is still free. In the second half of the hallucination, the child represents Harbinger himself, speaking to Shepard from within his own mind. Picking the red option (which Harbinger tries to convince him will lead to the worst outcome) represents Shepard breaking free of indoctrination, while picking either of the other options (which Harbinger seems to encourage) represents falling for the same lies that Saren (green) or The Illusive Man (blue) feel into.

I personally feel that when interpreted as an indoctrination attempt, and with the assumption that we'll receive the true climax (and resolution) in an upcoming DLC (which serves to help EA circumvent secondhand game retailers), the "ending" we currently have is actually quite brilliant. In lieu of a traditional "final boss fight" using weapons of war, we fight against Harbinger's strongest weapon, indoctrination. Given that indoctrination was ultimately responsible for the behavior of the main antagonists introduced in ME1 (Saren, who chose the "green" path of synthesis) and ME2 (TIM, who chose the "blue" path of control), it seems very fitting that it is the Reaper's indoctrination, and not their military strength, which will serve as the final test for Shepard.

Even though I strongly doubt it, I hope you're right. But I fear, that you will be a gutted and dissapointed fan within 2 weeks. Because, as unbelievable as this may sound, this is the actual ending.

[CheekyWeazel]

This Thread should not Vanish !
Bump !

[EsterCloat]

I quite enjoyed reading this post. It's interesting to read from a technical standpoint.

[Reidbynature]

Amdnro wrote...

Eternalsteelfan, YOUR THREAD IS ON FORBES!!

Oh crap!  We're being watched. 

Though in all seriousness, like I said before here, I did hope this thread would get noticed by someone.  Well done Eternalsteelfan.

[Zhijn]

Well written Eternalsteelfan. Its really is suprising this got the approval stamp. Almost makes you want to think BW is up to something.. big. Or maybe thats just "hope" speaking.

[Dan Willis]

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

I don't really mess with fan fiction but give me a few days and a handle of vodka and I'll churn something out.

In all seriousness though, a lot would depend on how much free rein I have, something like removing the Crucible would have ramifications throughout the script. For simplicity's sake and the high quality of most of the game, I'd say the very earliest part I'd consider start making changes to would be the trench run on the Citadel beam. It's the climax and from there we have many ways we can branch out into the resolution.

Stream of consciousness (excuse the clutter and lack of organization):
I'd like to work with alternatives to the Catalyst as a character, cut the whole thing from the elevator raising the character above to the top of the Citadel, TIM should have been dealt with prior to the battle for Earth, more screen time for Harbinger, ,ore integration of war assets and specific war assets acquired. I think eveything about the Catalyst needs a rework and I'd tie it to an ultimate choice or choices the player has to make. Maybe the Catalyst needs to be fueled or triggered by something, some high cost has to be paid. Ultimate goal was always destruction of Reapers, I'd say that'd be my constant in the endings with the variables being things like: war assets - choice(s) made with the reworked Catalyst.

I'm in a game right now, but I have a few specific ideas. Will post later.

Simplest answer: Anderson and Shepherd sit on the control tower -> the Crucible fires, the Reapers are destroyed -> epilogue

I have to admit, I'm interested to see what you come up with.


I'm a professional writer (novelist) and I really enjoyed your comments, especially about the visual aspects of the medium.  Since I'm not focused on that in my writing, I missed a lot of it. I knew it was wrong, but not necessarily why.  

One thing I'd like to add is that video games are inherently heroic fiction and the Mass Effect series is no exception.  The entire theme of the game is about doing the impossible, about being tenacious and overcoming.  At every turn, Shepard is beset by situations that others give up on, yet he manages.  The pinnacle of that was stopping the war between the Quarians and Geth.  It hit all the right notes of Heroic Fiction, it was a long hard road, and you could fail, but that made success that much more satisfying.

The ending robs us of that.  We're given a heroic task from the start - stop the Reapers.  And, in the end, that almost seems like an afterthought.  We're told that if we get the Crucible made, find the Catalyst, and assemble enough War Assets, we can defeat the Reapers.  Then suddenly, none of that matters, we go from heroes to spectators in a play that has changed all the rules.  It is the loss of that heroic action, that makes us feel so empty with the ending.

For my own interest, I wrote out how I would have ended it. I didn’t retcon anything from the larger story, just picked up from the transport beam.  It’s long (hey I’m a novelist) but I found it cathartic.  

You can see it here: tinyurl.com/88275wk

Modifié par Dan Willis, 17 mars 2012 - 01:15 .

[Njald]

This is just one voice among many and coming from an artist himself it's always subject to "well I would have done it differently" But with that said this is the best deoncstruction on why we felt cheated or frustrated even if we didn't find the exact points ourselves. I've heard the controversy before and thought that the ending could perhaps be a bit on the downside and I made my peace with that. I expected Shepard to suffer and die. What I didn't expect was for me, the player, to be removed from the story as well. The galaxy isn't saved bar few remaining survivors on insular planets. My companions goals and ideals are dumped in a forrest somewhere without even a mention to how they would surive/procreate and all I get is 3 different colour on the explosions.

[dreaming_raithe]

Got redirected here from Forbes, actually. For some reason I hadn't read this thread yet. I'm glad I did. Fantastic stuff.

[Sharkey1337]

Yep, got linked from Forbes as well. Very enlightening read, thank you OP!

[Star Eagle]

 Great write up on the end.  I complete agree and learned a lot from your write up on the ending.
I also now know why I wanted to shoot myself after playing all three games and finishing them with that ending.

Thanks for sharing.

[greggm2000]

Excellent post, I totally agree with you.

The post's length was fine, perhaps even a little short. Sometimes you just need the length in order to explain things properly, like you did.

Bioware had better fix this properly, or they'll never get a single $ of mine ever again (and I've bought quite a few Bioware games over the years).