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Very good post OP. Kudos.
Really, there is not that much more to say.
Musings of a Screenwriter: The Ending Thread
Débuté par
Eternalsteelfan
, mars 15 2012 11:27
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#652
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 01:04
IronsteffL
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Now thats something Bioware should see. Thank you for sharing both your opinion about the existing ending as well as an alternative with us!
#655
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 10:22
FIRST SIN
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I normally hate reading walls of text but your post was amazing and enjoyable.
#657
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 11:57
M12311
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LittleSusie wrote...
I just love you:)
If you could make such a good point while writing a "stream of conscious", why did not the actual writers for the ending do anything at least equally good while given more time & resources?!
They ran out of time. This happens when you try to wing the ending last minute. 3 months extra is not enough.
#658
Posté 22 mars 2012 - 11:59
A Typewriter
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Eternalsteelfan-- thank you, indeed! This is precisely, precisely the discussion I was having with my partner last night, but I lack the savvy to articulate it point-by-point so neatly. The recent demands to respect the artistic integrity of the ending give me a funny feeling, because I regard myself as a solid partisan of artistic risks, whether or not they fully succeed-- but while I don't have the beat-for-beat analysis down as you do, I can say this ending feels to me much more like calculation than coherent storytelling, and lacked so much in terms of connecting with the narrative that I haven't really been able to either talk myself out of my grievances with it, or mount any kind of solid devil's advocacy in defense of it. I simply don't begin to see where it could be decided that this of all endings was the best, most sensible one, given everything that had been set up, and especially given all the good that came before. I don't demand perfection in art, entertainment, or anything else, but I do look for integrity in making the attempt, and that's what I feel was most conspicuously lacking. Bother. Anyhow, thanks again for the good word-using!
#659
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 12:17
Eternalsteelfan
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SciCurious wrote...
Eternalsteelfan-- thank you, indeed! This is precisely, precisely the discussion I was having with my partner last night, but I lack the savvy to articulate it point-by-point so neatly. The recent demands to respect the artistic integrity of the ending give me a funny feeling, because I regard myself as a solid partisan of artistic risks, whether or not they fully succeed-- but while I don't have the beat-for-beat analysis down as you do, I can say this ending feels to me much more like calculation than coherent storytelling, and lacked so much in terms of connecting with the narrative that I haven't really been able to either talk myself out of my grievances with it, or mount any kind of solid devil's advocacy in defense of it. I simply don't begin to see where it could be decided that this of all endings was the best, most sensible one, given everything that had been set up, and especially given all the good that came before. I don't demand perfection in art, entertainment, or anything else, but I do look for integrity in making the attempt, and that's what I feel was most conspicuously lacking. Bother. Anyhow, thanks again for the good word-using!
No, thank you for articulating a point I have not been able to.
#660
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 03:38
lonewolf674
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Just bumping this because I also agree with the OP. I started hearing about the backlash concerning the ending when I was only halfway through my own play through of 3, and wondered why because I thought the writing and game play were some of the best of the series. I also thought the scene when Liara shows Shepard the project she's been working on, the "bromance" scene with Garrus, the conversations between the NPCs on the Normandy were nice touches. However, I wasn't really surprised by the introduction of the Crucible. As for its merits as a plot device, I'll leave that for the pros to decide. But I figured the writers would have to come up with something like that in order for Shepard to have any chance at outmatching this ancient race of hyperadvanced synthetic-organic hybrids with nearly god-like powers.
Then I reached the final sequence after the trench run and understood why people were upset with the ending. Totally came from out of nowhere and entirely out of context with the themes, decisions, and consequences from the previous parts of this game, as well as the other two. It just didn't make any sense. From comments I've seen here and elsewhere, that seems to be most people's biggest complaint -- not because it didn't have a happy ending, or anyone thought the god-child scene was so mystical, meta, or whatever, that it went right over their head. It was like a movie where 95% of the story is Die Hard, or Enemy of The State, and the remaining 5% tacks on the ending of a David Lynch film.
Anyway, your post also had me thinking about other multipart series I've played through, and I realized the stories behind them contain all, or nearly all, the elements spelled out in the OP. One example I thought of was the Halo trilogy. Of all the criticism Halo has gotten, one of them is not that the ending of Halo 3 didn't make sense. And that's despite the fact that Bungie never originally conceived of the first game as part of a trilogy (although, I would concede that unlike ME, Bungie had to explain a lot of the Halo backstory through the novels). For instance, after the Prophet of Truth and the Brutes are dealt with at the Citadel, we learn the Flood has been the true antagonist of the story, just as they were with the Forerunners. Then, after Master Chief rescues Cortana from High Charity, the Flood is finally, and decisively, dealt with by igniting the halo on The Ark, followed by a resolution of any remaining loose ends in the final cut scene. Although we don't know the fate of MC and Cortana as its playing, there's a memorial ceremony to the characters who died, followed by The Arbiter stating that he and the rest of the Elites were returning to their homeworld and leaving on their ships. Then, the scene finshes by focusing on a fragment of the frigate The Arbiter, MC and Cortana escaped The Arc in etched with the numbers 117, or Master Chief's number. I'm not saying this was groundbreaking, or innovative, storytelling. But by the end of this cut scene, it felt like I had learned the complete story of Master Chief. Of course, on Legendary difficulty, there's an additional cut scene that shows MC and Cortana on the wreckage of the frigate drifting in some part of the galaxy and setting up the next chapter of the series, but it's after the resolution of the main story.
Also, there's the two Crysis games. The second is very different from the first in several respects, one of which is that it takes place in NYC, far away from Lingshan Island, where the first game is set. But instead of ignorning the descrepancies between the two games, after each mission a cut scene is unlocked explaining what happened to Prophet toward the end of the first game after he flew a helicopter back into the bubble the Ceph erected around Lingshan Island, how he got to NYC, the reason the nanosuit was created in the first place, etc.
I'm not mad or angry at Bioware or EA for the ME3 ending, just disappointed because I love and am a huge fan of the Mass Effect series. I recommend the games to everyone, gamer or not, because of the story and the characters, but now will have to do so with a caveat about the ending. What I do think hurts Bioware is explained on another thread concerning the statements some of the writers and producers made about ME3 in press releases and interviews with various media outlets because these were made after production wrapped up, and the speakers had to have known what they were saying wasn't true. Nobody likes feeling like they were had, or lied to.
Then I reached the final sequence after the trench run and understood why people were upset with the ending. Totally came from out of nowhere and entirely out of context with the themes, decisions, and consequences from the previous parts of this game, as well as the other two. It just didn't make any sense. From comments I've seen here and elsewhere, that seems to be most people's biggest complaint -- not because it didn't have a happy ending, or anyone thought the god-child scene was so mystical, meta, or whatever, that it went right over their head. It was like a movie where 95% of the story is Die Hard, or Enemy of The State, and the remaining 5% tacks on the ending of a David Lynch film.
Anyway, your post also had me thinking about other multipart series I've played through, and I realized the stories behind them contain all, or nearly all, the elements spelled out in the OP. One example I thought of was the Halo trilogy. Of all the criticism Halo has gotten, one of them is not that the ending of Halo 3 didn't make sense. And that's despite the fact that Bungie never originally conceived of the first game as part of a trilogy (although, I would concede that unlike ME, Bungie had to explain a lot of the Halo backstory through the novels). For instance, after the Prophet of Truth and the Brutes are dealt with at the Citadel, we learn the Flood has been the true antagonist of the story, just as they were with the Forerunners. Then, after Master Chief rescues Cortana from High Charity, the Flood is finally, and decisively, dealt with by igniting the halo on The Ark, followed by a resolution of any remaining loose ends in the final cut scene. Although we don't know the fate of MC and Cortana as its playing, there's a memorial ceremony to the characters who died, followed by The Arbiter stating that he and the rest of the Elites were returning to their homeworld and leaving on their ships. Then, the scene finshes by focusing on a fragment of the frigate The Arbiter, MC and Cortana escaped The Arc in etched with the numbers 117, or Master Chief's number. I'm not saying this was groundbreaking, or innovative, storytelling. But by the end of this cut scene, it felt like I had learned the complete story of Master Chief. Of course, on Legendary difficulty, there's an additional cut scene that shows MC and Cortana on the wreckage of the frigate drifting in some part of the galaxy and setting up the next chapter of the series, but it's after the resolution of the main story.
Also, there's the two Crysis games. The second is very different from the first in several respects, one of which is that it takes place in NYC, far away from Lingshan Island, where the first game is set. But instead of ignorning the descrepancies between the two games, after each mission a cut scene is unlocked explaining what happened to Prophet toward the end of the first game after he flew a helicopter back into the bubble the Ceph erected around Lingshan Island, how he got to NYC, the reason the nanosuit was created in the first place, etc.
I'm not mad or angry at Bioware or EA for the ME3 ending, just disappointed because I love and am a huge fan of the Mass Effect series. I recommend the games to everyone, gamer or not, because of the story and the characters, but now will have to do so with a caveat about the ending. What I do think hurts Bioware is explained on another thread concerning the statements some of the writers and producers made about ME3 in press releases and interviews with various media outlets because these were made after production wrapped up, and the speakers had to have known what they were saying wasn't true. Nobody likes feeling like they were had, or lied to.
#661
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 03:41
Nightfire78
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SciCurious wrote...
Eternalsteelfan-- thank you, indeed! This is precisely, precisely the discussion I was having with my partner last night, but I lack the savvy to articulate it point-by-point so neatly. The recent demands to respect the artistic integrity of the ending give me a funny feeling, because I regard myself as a solid partisan of artistic risks, whether or not they fully succeed-- but while I don't have the beat-for-beat analysis down as you do, I can say this ending feels to me much more like calculation than coherent storytelling, and lacked so much in terms of connecting with the narrative that I haven't really been able to either talk myself out of my grievances with it, or mount any kind of solid devil's advocacy in defense of it. I simply don't begin to see where it could be decided that this of all endings was the best, most sensible one, given everything that had been set up, and especially given all the good that came before. I don't demand perfection in art, entertainment, or anything else, but I do look for integrity in making the attempt, and that's what I feel was most conspicuously lacking. Bother. Anyhow, thanks again for the good word-using!
Well said.
#662
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 04:45
Eternalsteelfan
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lonewolf674 wrote...
Just bumping this because I also agree with the OP. I started hearing about the backlash concerning the ending when I was only halfway through my own play through of 3, and wondered why because I thought the writing and game play were some of the best of the series. I also thought the scene when Liara shows Shepard the project she's been working on, the "bromance" scene with Garrus, the conversations between the NPCs on the Normandy were nice touches. However, I wasn't really surprised by the introduction of the Crucible. As for its merits as a plot device, I'll leave that for the pros to decide. But I figured the writers would have to come up with something like that in order for Shepard to have any chance at outmatching this ancient race of hyperadvanced synthetic-organic hybrids with nearly god-like powers.
Then I reached the final sequence after the trench run and understood why people were upset with the ending. Totally came from out of nowhere and entirely out of context with the themes, decisions, and consequences from the previous parts of this game, as well as the other two. It just didn't make any sense. From comments I've seen here and elsewhere, that seems to be most people's biggest complaint -- not because it didn't have a happy ending, or anyone thought the god-child scene was so mystical, meta, or whatever, that it went right over their head. It was like a movie where 95% of the story is Die Hard, or Enemy of The State, and the remaining 5% tacks on the ending of a David Lynch film.
Anyway, your post also had me thinking about other multipart series I've played through, and I realized the stories behind them contain all, or nearly all, the elements spelled out in the OP. One example I thought of was the Halo trilogy. Of all the criticism Halo has gotten, one of them is not that the ending of Halo 3 didn't make sense. And that's despite the fact that Bungie never originally conceived of the first game as part of a trilogy (although, I would concede that unlike ME, Bungie had to explain a lot of the Halo backstory through the novels). For instance, after the Prophet of Truth and the Brutes are dealt with at the Citadel, we learn the Flood has been the true antagonist of the story, just as they were with the Forerunners. Then, after Master Chief rescues Cortana from High Charity, the Flood is finally, and decisively, dealt with by igniting the halo on The Ark, followed by a resolution of any remaining loose ends in the final cut scene. Although we don't know the fate of MC and Cortana as its playing, there's a memorial ceremony to the characters who died, followed by The Arbiter stating that he and the rest of the Elites were returning to their homeworld and leaving on their ships. Then, the scene finshes by focusing on a fragment of the frigate The Arbiter, MC and Cortana escaped The Arc in etched with the numbers 117, or Master Chief's number. I'm not saying this was groundbreaking, or innovative, storytelling. But by the end of this cut scene, it felt like I had learned the complete story of Master Chief. Of course, on Legendary difficulty, there's an additional cut scene that shows MC and Cortana on the wreckage of the frigate drifting in some part of the galaxy and setting up the next chapter of the series, but it's after the resolution of the main story.
Also, there's the two Crysis games. The second is very different from the first in several respects, one of which is that it takes place in NYC, far away from Lingshan Island, where the first game is set. But instead of ignorning the descrepancies between the two games, after each mission a cut scene is unlocked explaining what happened to Prophet toward the end of the first game after he flew a helicopter back into the bubble the Ceph erected around Lingshan Island, how he got to NYC, the reason the nanosuit was created in the first place, etc.
I'm not mad or angry at Bioware or EA for the ME3 ending, just disappointed because I love and am a huge fan of the Mass Effect series. I recommend the games to everyone, gamer or not, because of the story and the characters, but now will have to do so with a caveat about the ending. What I do think hurts Bioware is explained on another thread concerning the statements some of the writers and producers made about ME3 in press releases and interviews with various media outlets because these were made after production wrapped up, and the speakers had to have known what they were saying wasn't true. Nobody likes feeling like they were had, or lied to.
Thanks for the response. I hadn't played Halo 3 but I'm familiar with it's conclusion, it's a good example of a simple, conventional ending, even with a bit of a cliffhanger there is sufficient resolution to the story.
I sympathize about having to add a disclaimer about the ending of Mass Effect 3 now when trying to "sell" the series to my friends.
#663
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 05:04
Federally
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Why would you sell the series to your friends? You really want to inflict the heartbreak and frustration on them? You're cruel
#664
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 05:16
FyreSyder
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Eternalsteelfan wrote...
Thanks for the response. I hadn't played Halo 3 but I'm familiar with it's conclusion, it's a good example of a simple, conventional ending, even with a bit of a cliffhanger there is sufficient resolution to the story.
I sympathize about having to add a disclaimer about the ending of Mass Effect 3 now when trying to "sell" the series to my friends.
Yeah, Halo 3 does have a great conclusion.
#665
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 06:12
Eternalsteelfan
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Federally wrote...
Why would you sell the series to your friends? You really want to inflict the heartbreak and frustration on them? You're cruel
The other 100+ hours were incredible.
Modifié par Eternalsteelfan, 23 mars 2012 - 06:12 .
#666
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 06:33
Federally
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Then sell them 1 and 2 and tell them to head cannon the rest lol
#667
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 07:08
LittleSusie
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IronsteffL wrote...
Now thats something Bioware should see. Thank you for sharing both your opinion about the existing ending as well as an alternative with us!
There's so much clever & well written stuff they should see, apart form just general discontent... How can we make this happen?
#668
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 01:54
Eternalsteelfan
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LittleSusie wrote...
IronsteffL wrote...
Now thats something Bioware should see. Thank you for sharing both your opinion about the existing ending as well as an alternative with us!
There's so much clever & well written stuff they should see, apart form just general discontent... How can we make this happen?
If you ever want to contact Bioware or EA, Twitter and email seem to be the ways to go.
#669
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 10:13
JadedLibertine
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This is a very intelligent and incisive critique, it is very easy to lose track of gems like these as this forum changes and moves so fast. The writers at BioWare could learn so much from this.
#671
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 10:25
Jjacobclark
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Your fanfic...so amazing...why couldin't that be the ending...OMG nERDRAGE!!!
#673
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 10:47
The Mercenary55
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Spot on! You summarised whats been bugging so many people and whats better is you didnt insult bioware or its employees. I hope they read this and seriously reflect on what you've said.
#674
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:03
baudrahn
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Excellent post and I enjoyed your ending.
#675
Posté 23 mars 2012 - 11:19
Eternalsteelfan
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The Mercenary55 wrote...
Spot on! You summarised whats been bugging so many people and whats better is you didnt insult bioware or its employees. I hope they read this and seriously reflect on what you've said.
Thanks, I don't think there's anything to be gained by attacking people. I'd like to be able to have these conversations and dialogues without bickering.
