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[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

Quitch wrote...

Here's a link to another really good breakdown of how the ending violates the narrative arc:

http://jmstevenson.w...-mass-effect-3/

And the other articles which I think have best broken down the problem:

http://ryanmarkel.co...-mass-effect-3/
http://www.gamefront...fans-are-right/
http://www.gameranx....versial-ending/

Thankyouthankyou for those links.  I was re-reading some of the thread and those first two are fantastic.  I'm adding them to my list of comprehensive articles and posts on why the endings fail spectacularly in an objective fashion.

Why you enjoy art and the one problem with Mass Effect 3

My thoughts on the ending as a writing/literature teacher and retail veteran....
A credentialed literature major, and his take on the ending.
An interesting post from the Penny Arcade forums.
In Depth Thematic Analysis of ME3 Ending pt 1: the Frankenstein Complex
"maintain[ing] the ... artistic integrity of the original story" =...
My open letter to ME3 writers
Colour-coding morality: the inherent problems of 'choice' in Mass Effect

[Eternalsteelfan]

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

LawNinja wrote...

Between this, the Final Hours, and the post by [REDACTED] of the ME writing crew (which, IMO, is genuine, you can't fake screencaps of multiple forum posts without someone catching on) the basic elements of what happened are clear: 1) there was a collaborative writing/critiquing/revising/editorial process with the rest of the story, 2) Casy Hudson and Mac Walters disregarded this process when it came time to complete the ending, instead choosing to do it themselves, and wrote an ending focusing on creating speculation rather than closure, and 3) the results of the ending speak for itself.

And no, I don't think they planned this controversy. Nobody would deliberately plan something like this - a situation where the only thing ME3 is now known for in the media is its infuriatingly bad ending.

It may be fair to assume they had planned for some controversy, or polarity as Casey Hudson describribes the ending reactions, but they misjudged how severe it would be.

Intentionally messing with people's emotions.  What could possibly go wrong?

Any good story is going to affect the audience's feelings and emotions, it's a matter of how much and how well. Joss Whedon is a great example of someone who can puppeteer an audience's emotions, you'll be laughing one minute then crying the next, but it doesn't really feel manipulative. There's a line between the narrative have a natural, effective, emotional punch and the narrative feeling manipulative.

[Matrices_]

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

LawNinja wrote...

Between this, the Final Hours, and the post by [REDACTED] of the ME writing crew (which, IMO, is genuine, you can't fake screencaps of multiple forum posts without someone catching on) the basic elements of what happened are clear: 1) there was a collaborative writing/critiquing/revising/editorial process with the rest of the story, 2) Casy Hudson and Mac Walters disregarded this process when it came time to complete the ending, instead choosing to do it themselves, and wrote an ending focusing on creating speculation rather than closure, and 3) the results of the ending speak for itself.

And no, I don't think they planned this controversy. Nobody would deliberately plan something like this - a situation where the only thing ME3 is now known for in the media is its infuriatingly bad ending.

It may be fair to assume they had planned for some controversy, or polarity as Casey Hudson describribes the ending reactions, but they misjudged how severe it would be.

Intentionally messing with people's emotions.  What could possibly go wrong?

Any good story is going to affect the audience's feelings and emotions, it's a matter of how much and how well. Joss Whedon is a great example of someone who can puppeteer an audience's emotions, you'll be laughing one minute then crying the next, but it doesn't really feel manipulative. There's a line between the narrative have a natural, effective, emotional punch and the narrative feeling manipulative.

I don't buy that Hudson genuinely wanted "polarization." That's a backup BS excuse that people and organizations concoct as a euphemism for "this is going to be terrible and people will be angry."

In any case, there is no polarity. That term implies an even split toward opposite extremes. In this situation, the overwhelming majority of fans believe that the ending to ME3 is an abomination and almost no one on Earth thought it was a great ending.

[fafnir magnus]

bump, this thread's high level of articulation and civility is deserving of a geniune reply from bioware employees and writing team.

Modifié par fafnir magnus, 25 mars 2012 - 07:13 .

[Eternalsteelfan]

Matrices_ wrote...

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

LawNinja wrote...

Between this, the Final Hours, and the post by [REDACTED] of the ME writing crew (which, IMO, is genuine, you can't fake screencaps of multiple forum posts without someone catching on) the basic elements of what happened are clear: 1) there was a collaborative writing/critiquing/revising/editorial process with the rest of the story, 2) Casy Hudson and Mac Walters disregarded this process when it came time to complete the ending, instead choosing to do it themselves, and wrote an ending focusing on creating speculation rather than closure, and 3) the results of the ending speak for itself.

And no, I don't think they planned this controversy. Nobody would deliberately plan something like this - a situation where the only thing ME3 is now known for in the media is its infuriatingly bad ending.

It may be fair to assume they had planned for some controversy, or polarity as Casey Hudson describribes the ending reactions, but they misjudged how severe it would be.

Intentionally messing with people's emotions.  What could possibly go wrong?

Any good story is going to affect the audience's feelings and emotions, it's a matter of how much and how well. Joss Whedon is a great example of someone who can puppeteer an audience's emotions, you'll be laughing one minute then crying the next, but it doesn't really feel manipulative. There's a line between the narrative have a natural, effective, emotional punch and the narrative feeling manipulative.

I don't buy that Hudson genuinely wanted "polarization." That's a backup BS excuse that people and organizations concoct as a euphemism for "this is going to be terrible and people will be angry."

In any case, there is no polarity. That term implies an even split toward opposite extremes. In this situation, the overwhelming majority of fans believe that the ending to ME3 is an abomination and almost no one on Earth thought it was a great ending.

I agree this is far too one-sided to be considered polarity, but I don't doubt Hudson and Walters wanted some kind of open-ended conclusion to cause speculation/get people talking. 

[Matrices_]

While I'm criticizing, I might as well outline the proposed ending I came up with myself:

Mass Effect 3 Alternate Ending Outline

Starting from: sequence where everyone is trying to reach the Citadel beam with Harbinger's laser fire blocking the way

1. This sequence should be akin to the ME2 ending sequence where your whole squad is out there fighting Reapers as you make your way toward the objective.

Heavy Reaper presence blocks your path to the Citadel. Depending on whether you saved Rachni and Geth, they land out of the sky like badasses to reduce the difficulty of resistance. Depending on your overall score, former squad members like Jacob, Liara and possibly Ashley/Kaidan die helping you out. Depending on your reputation points, some current squad members live or die in this sequence as well. A couple former and/or current members die regardless of anything.

2. You and some squadmates get to the beam and teleport up. IM is there waiting, excitedly and stubbornly talking about an AI that offers the absurd rationale we're familiar with and is offering the options of Synthesis and Control. Shepard laughs in disbelief at IM's stupidity and through dialogue options mockingly points out the Harbinger-sized holes in all the nonsense that IM is saying (Synthesis is just an organic/machine combination known as Reapers; Control is IM's original delusion.) He tells him he is indoctrinated.

3. EDI opens comms to let you know that her analysis of Reaper data and Citadel energy readings indicates that the Citadel is not only not the Catalyst, but will sabotage and destroy the Crucible if hooked into it. She affirms that the idea is a Reaper lie. (Parallel to the option you were given to sabotage the Genophage reversal). IM delivers Vader-esque "Noo!" and he offs himself or you kill him.

4. EDI lets you know that data indicates the real Catalyst is any relay. Obviously the closest one is optimal. The fleet hurriedly escorts the Crucible to the relay. Harbinger and crew give chase. Normandy picks you up from the Citadel and drops you off inside Harbinger to destroy it from inside. Depending on your overall rating and/or how many friends you brought to the fight, the Crucible (a) makes it to the relay unscathed, ( arrives somewhat damaged, or © is seriously damaged.

5. You wage an epic fight to destroy Harbinger's core and escape in one of those typical running from explosion as Normandy picks you up sequences. Harbinger's destruction temporarily sends Reapers in disarray and you have a little time to make your move. Crucible interfaces with the relay and you dock to discuss things with Hackett and Anderson.

If it arrived unscathed, it can shoot an anti-Reaper beam through the relays, destroying all Reapers in the universe. If somewhat damaged, then EDI runs some analysis showing that because of the damage, the catalyzing relay (aka Sol's) will take enough damage such that it will begin to deteriorate and become unusable within days. Earth will need to be evacced and abandoned quickly; many will be left to die (how many will depend on how many friends you have who will lend transports). If seriously damaged, Sol relay will explode, killing you, fleets, all nearby life, but the rest of the relays and galaxy will go on.

6. Brief epilogue showing the further consequences of your earlier decisions, assuming Paragon and best outcome in above scenarios: Wrex and Eve observe funeral ceremony on new Krogan homeworld for Mordin, with thousands of Krogan at attention and a few Salarian dignitaries invited. Geth help Quarrians rebuild homeland and cut to an indoor scene of a maskless Quarrian shaking the hand of a Geth prime. Cut to scenes of Salarians/Asarians/humans (assuming condition A) cleaning up the rubble on their homeworlds.

Closing cinematic (for A and B scenarios), depending on who survives, is you and Garrus/Liara/Ashley sharing drinks and toasting to lost comrades and civilians in a bittersweet moment. For scenario C, funerals on other worlds for all those killed in Sol. Surviving human exiles shown as ambivalent or angry about any homage to high honors/remembrance for Shepard and his team, but other races (minus Quarrians, who are presumably all dead) pay their respects, particularly to Shepard. Some of the human exiles are moved at the sight of other races honoring the humans' sacrifice so they join in.

The end.

Modifié par Matrices_, 25 mars 2012 - 07:23 .

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

Intentionally messing with people's emotions.  What could possibly go wrong?

Any good story is going to affect the audience's feelings and emotions, it's a matter of how much and how well. Joss Whedon is a great example of someone who can puppeteer an audience's emotions, you'll be laughing one minute then crying the next, but it doesn't really feel manipulative. There's a line between the narrative have a natural, effective, emotional punch and the narrative feeling manipulative.

Come on, I think you very well know that proper emotional 'manipulation' (cues?  guidance?) during narrative is not what what I was referring to.   I was referring to them intentionally shipping with an ending that they knew would be controversial and "polarizing."  Regardless of if they underestimated that reaction, it wasn't something they should have done.  Saying "It's okay, we'll only anger a 'small' part of the fanbase" doesn't justify intentionally angering them.

[Eternalsteelfan]

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

Intentionally messing with people's emotions.  What could possibly go wrong?

Any good story is going to affect the audience's feelings and emotions, it's a matter of how much and how well. Joss Whedon is a great example of someone who can puppeteer an audience's emotions, you'll be laughing one minute then crying the next, but it doesn't really feel manipulative. There's a line between the narrative have a natural, effective, emotional punch and the narrative feeling manipulative.

Come on, I think you very well know that proper emotional 'manipulation' (cues?  guidance?) during narrative is not what what I was referring to.   I was referring to them intentionally shipping with an ending that they knew would be controversial and "polarizing."  Regardless of if they underestimated that reaction, it wasn't something they should have done.  Saying "It's okay, we'll only anger a 'small' part of the fanbase" doesn't justify intentionally angering them.

I wasn't criticzing what you said, I was going off of it.

[Luxure]

I had a great reading OP, even the fanfic ending was goddamn gorgeous and I would trade my house for it to become real. Thank you for the time you've put into writing this. All the internetz for you sir!

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

I originally read the OP before the ending synopsis was added.  Having read that part now I say it is well thought out and would make for a decent ending.  Matrices_'s post on this page would also be pretty good.

It saddens me to think that some fans can come up with better endings than what we received.  There must have been some upper management decisions that overruled objections from the writing team and the rest of the team at large.

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

Intentionally messing with people's emotions.  What could possibly go wrong?

Any good story is going to affect the audience's feelings and emotions, it's a matter of how much and how well. Joss Whedon is a great example of someone who can puppeteer an audience's emotions, you'll be laughing one minute then crying the next, but it doesn't really feel manipulative. There's a line between the narrative have a natural, effective, emotional punch and the narrative feeling manipulative.

Come on, I think you very well know that proper emotional 'manipulation' (cues?  guidance?) during narrative is not what what I was referring to.   I was referring to them intentionally shipping with an ending that they knew would be controversial and "polarizing."  Regardless of if they underestimated that reaction, it wasn't something they should have done.  Saying "It's okay, we'll only anger a 'small' part of the fanbase" doesn't justify intentionally angering them.

I wasn't criticzing what you said, I was going off of it.

Oh.  *shrugs*

[JulienJaden]

@Eternalsteelfan:
You know, even though it's not, strictly speaking, the variety of endings I want from BioWare and I want for this game, I can tell that you know what you're doing.
Your ending outline is far more sophisticated than the original ending and it does the story, the main themes and the efforts throughout the last game more justice than the current ending.

I salute you and hope that Casey Hudson and Mac Walters carefully read through your opening post.

[Lasybeno8]

Great post. Loved it.
Thanks for this.

[JayChemist]

I just wanted to thank the OP for this. I just beat the game recently and was completely let down by the ending. This post brings up a lot of good points as to why its not a proper ending and I just wanted to say I appreciate this perspective.

[Navywife64]

Thank you this explains how I feel but do not have talent to express in written word. The ending outline is awesome and I would ended the game thinking how epic a ride that was instead of thinking wtf was that. Huge replayability to this. Have fun and hugs to all.

[Rykoth]

I don't mind the ending. I kind of like it. I don't love it. I like it. But damn OP, your proposed ending would have been... frickin amazing.

[Elidor109]

Your ending is 1,000,000 times better than the current one.

[blehblah123]

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

I agree this is far too one-sided to be considered polarity, but I don't doubt Hudson and Walters wanted some kind of open-ended conclusion to cause speculation/get people talking. 

They probably wanted some Inception style speculation on the forums.  It's amusing and sad that even pro-enders aren't discussing the endings on forums (that I can see ..and imho).

[Taritu]

Excellent analysis, and excellent ending. How I goddamn wish that had been it. I especially like having to choose who sacrifices themselves. It'd feel so ****ty to make someone else do it, but...

[Nette]

Luxure wrote...

I had a great reading OP, even the fanfic ending was goddamn gorgeous and I would trade my house for it to become real. Thank you for the time you've put into writing this. All the internetz for you sir!

I agree. That fanfic ending you wrote is pure gold! You should send it to Bioware, show them what a real ending to ME3 should look like.

Edit: I just posted a link to your page on this thread: http://social.biowar...61/439#10630077

Modifié par Nette, 26 mars 2012 - 03:49 .

[Taritu]

vermore wrote...

Ryokun1989 wrote...

It looks like you take some kind of template and try to put mass effect in it... Do you work for the hollywood screenwriters guild or something? Because then I understand why you don't like ME's ending.
Otherwise, most of what you say is just a way of you interpreting stuff and saying, I am a screenwriter so listen to me. Well I am a gamedesigner and was involved with the writing of many theatre plays and games by now and I don't agree with you sorry. Some writers choose for no catharsis and for a game like Mass Effect that is a new and bold step to take. I never thought a series like this could or would do that, but now they did, it's like a miracle in storytelling happened. But most people won't get that anyway. So Casey and co keep the ending how it is please.

Frankly,  if I wished to spend $80 on what boils down to intellectual novelty (stories without catharsis) I would do so.  I chose to spend $80 on a Science Fiction adventure game that up until the last 2 minutes was absolutely fantastic.  I believe the OP captures the logic that is typically used to induce the desired reaction in the consumer of the story.  The function of an adventure game neccessitates the form that is presented by the OP.  To do otherwise is a betrayal to the consumer.  While its great that you fell I should be appreciative of this betrayal because of its novelty, the fact remains I spent a good deal of money for something that due to its lack of catharsis makes me want to forget all three games.  I will explain why below. 

To be more incisive on my expectation of catharsis in this game, I will refer to the post above from sherpa.  The ME universe works best for me when I am immersed in the relationships I have with my shipmates on the Normandy.  The character writing I feel was actually quite good.  One of my favorites was Mordin.  It was actually a huge payoff watching his sacrifice.  Same for the lines when Thane is dying.  Spectacular.  This sort of experience leads one to expect a connection along the same lines for the ending.  In other words, the designers took great care to pull my heartstrings when it came to my companions.  They really built relationships.  To such an extent that my motivations became only vaguely about the epic Reaper confrontation and more about making sure Jacob got to see his unborn child, or Tali getting to build her beachfront villa on Rannoch, or Jack enjoying being a part of something at long last, or making the sacrfices of Mordin and Thane worth something.  In other words, the game design encouraged a player to make the fight about the other soldiers in the foxhole with you.  I began to trust that this is the way it would be.  This either demands catharsis or is asking for a form of ptsd (though infinitesimal to the real thing in comparison).   

What we get from the three endings is the end of everything I found worthy of fighting for.  It left me feeling that I might as well have sat back down on the floor and watched the reapers take everything.  That way there was hope that the next cycle would be as poignant as this one.  Rather I get several versions of clumsy "highbrow" bludgeoning about some vague and distant hope after all is destroyed.  It would be easier to take if I could connect to the survivors.  If the grandfather at the epilogue was my grandson from a love interest for instance.  But there are no such connections.  Even the survivors of the Normandy are in a rough spot and few in presentation.  So what made the ride so great was CHANGED at the end to something that seemed to belong to an Epicurean exposition on the meaning of life.  Not what I paid for.  But moreover, it wasn't intellectually honest to the material we had seen up to that point.  I don't deny that there are some borderline masochists that enjoy angst and meaninglessness as some kind of badge of intellectual superiority.  But I personally don't appreciate having it forced on me by slight of hand.  Let me choose to see such novelties myself rather than be tricked into it.

Therein lies the point.  Storytelling establishes a pattern.  This pattern can be presented as a formula. The consumer of the story has a reasonable expectation of seeing a conclusion that at the very least is intellectually true to the story, usually guided by the formula.  In this case, it is not.  This can be demonstrated by reading the OP's original post.  By saying that following this formula is not valid, and that we should all be equally appreciative of this thematic switcheroo in and of itself as some kind of genious is the equivalent of giving us an intellectual wedgy.

A story is a contract, and the readers expect you to fulfill it at the end.  Bioware did not.

[Nuclear Pete]

Well said

[GenGSPatton]

Having read that ending it makes me feel better because i can imagine it happened that way

On the otherhand it really brings to light the flaws in the existing ending.

Great post Eternalsteelfan, keep up the great work!

[Eternalsteelfan]

Rykoth wrote...

I don't mind the ending. I kind of like it. I don't love it. I like it. But damn OP, your proposed ending would have been... frickin amazing.

Thank you. I'm interested in the opinions of people who didn't mind the ending, most are usually far less receptive to the criticisms of it. I'm glad to see you are open-minded about opinions that differ from your own.

Elidor109 wrote...

Your ending is 1,000,000 times better than the current one.

I like that figure

Nette wrote...

Luxure wrote...

I had a great
reading OP, even the fanfic ending was goddamn gorgeous and I would
trade my house for it to become real. Thank you for the time you've put
into writing this. All the internetz for you sir!

I
agree. That fanfic ending you wrote is pure gold! You should send it to
Bioware, show them what a real ending to ME3 should look like.

Edit: I just posted a link to your page on this thread: http://social.biowar...61/439#10630077

Thank you, I'm honored you found it worth spreading the word around.

Modifié par Eternalsteelfan, 26 mars 2012 - 02:30 .

[Darkwulfjj]

I want that ending

[Navywife64]

Bump for all to see. This is a must read imo. Thank you again.