831 réponses à ce sujet

[cinderburster]

Five stars, would read again.

[brain_damage]

Nailed it. Kudos!

[Ariq007]

Good post, thanks for taking the time.

On the subject of the crucible/catalyst being a deus ex machina; while technically it may not be a deus ex machina according to the strict definition of one, it's still a little too close for comfort. Yes, the Crucible is introduced in the very beginning of the story, but it's still a pretty convenient thing to just discover all of a sudden. I mean, maybe if it was somehow introduced or referenced in ME1 or ME2 it would be more acceptable, but just having an 'all-of-a-sudden-reaper-killing-superweapon' just pop up out of nowhere....

At that point it just sounds like you are arguing technicallities.

[CronoDragoon]

Linus108 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I'm interested in your point about showing and not telling.

One of the biggest problems with TV shows/Movies & Games.

If you have to tell someone how to feel, you are doing it wrong. Breaking Bad (TV show) is a good example of how to do it right. 

Another interesting thing to consider is the presence of music in a visual medium. Many of the best shows/movies have extended scenes without music. The Wire, for example, only had music in its season-end montages. Music is an effective way to tell the audience how to feel about something happening: if you show two people fighting to piano, the audience knows this is supposed to be a sad or poignant fight. Action music changes it completely.

Given this, I can't help but feel that the only reason I felt any sadness at all in the ending scenes, for example when Shepard dies, is because there was some fantastic goddamn piano playing. Taking background noise away from a scene can often give you a good indication of how quality the writing actually is (for examples, removing laugh tracks in a comedy or music in a drama).

[Gloatie]

I actually can sympathize with those who dislike the ending a little now.

All I could hear before was "deus ex" and "macguffin." It so clearly was not a matter of either that I just turned them all off.

You describe very well what has driven the poorly expressed response.

When you put it that way, I can see your point.

Still, I frankly don't see why anyone should give a ****.

[nomoredruggs]

Lawliet89 wrote...

Nice way to put forward what we feel but cannot really articulate well.

[Meltemph]

On the plus side, the bad ending helped some kids... On the down side, it hurt some kids(and adults) feelings.

[Eternalsteelfan]

Qutayba wrote...

Thank you. That was a very intelligent contribution, and I hope it's one of the ones that gets through to them!

I'm not sure I completely agree with you on the balance of Harbinger and TIM as antagonists. One of the things I like about the Reapers is that they were a Lovecraftian horror, something so vast and terrifying that calling them evil doesn't even do them justice. There are only a few times in the series where you interact with them directly, and any humanization of them is avoided (I actually felt a little ambivalent about the way Harbinger taunts you through his minions throughout ME2 - why does he need to bother?)

This is why the Illusive Man is important as an antagonist. He's the human face of the "evil" and the foil against which Shepard defines humanity. In some ways, I'd say he's actually the primary antagonist from a thematic perspective - the dark mirror. I liked the confrontation with him at the conclusion - it was there that the humanistic and ethical themes of the story were reiterated. Even though the primary conflict is between TIM and Shepard, Anderson's presence reminds Shepard through his friends that the struggle is about "humanity" as an ethical stance rather than Humanity as a species. It's not just about Life in the abstract, but about lives, in particular.

To me, the Reapers were merely the backdrop to this conflict, raising the stakes. I think there are many storytelling flaws in the Starchild scene, but what bothered me most was the thematic 180. You're now forced to make decisions about Life divorced from the impact on the lives of your friends. The Big Idea swallows the characters. So Shepard loses his humanity just after affirming it against the Illusive Man.

I think it's telling that one of the most popular "re-edits" of the ending on YouTube simply ends with Shepard and Anderson looking at Earth through the open arms of the Citadel. Not only does the Star Child not add value to the story, it also actively detracts from it.

A story can only really have one antagonist and one protagonist. I feel the Reapers are clearly the antagonist because they are the crux of the conflict since the first game. TIM isn't introduced until the second installment and isn't an antagonistic force until the third, even then he's an extension of the Reapers like Saren. He's an interesting character and a great parallel, but I still think his importance should have ended before the climax; the protagonist and the antagonist face off in the climax yet it's TIM who we deal with in the resolution, it just feels off to me.

[usmack5]

Well said, sir. Your whole part C section is pretty disappointing, too. I expected so much more from Bioware's team...

[Stygian1]

I support.



Hold the line.

[Pedro Costa]

Thank you for the amazing post. =)

[spartan5127]

Agreed. There is no good reason to be edgy and profound just for the sake of being edgy and profound.

[Eternalsteelfan]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Linus108 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I'm interested in your point about showing and not telling.

One of the biggest problems with TV shows/Movies & Games.

If you have to tell someone how to feel, you are doing it wrong. Breaking Bad (TV show) is a good example of how to do it right. 

Another interesting thing to consider is the presence of music in a visual medium. Many of the best shows/movies have extended scenes without music. The Wire, for example, only had music in its season-end montages. Music is an effective way to tell the audience how to feel about something happening: if you show two people fighting to piano, the audience knows this is supposed to be a sad or poignant fight. Action music changes it completely.

Given this, I can't help but feel that the only reason I felt any sadness at all in the ending scenes, for example when Shepard dies, is because there was some fantastic goddamn piano playing. Taking background noise away from a scene can often give you a good indication of how quality the writing actually is (for examples, removing laugh tracks in a comedy or music in a drama).

Again, a great post. Many I've studied film with and many who have taught me are of the belief that music is often used as crutch to manipulate the audience into feeling a certain way rather than as a complement to the action on screen.

Modifié par Eternalsteelfan, 16 mars 2012 - 01:23 .

[CronoDragoon]

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

A story can only really have one antagonist and one protagonist. I feel the Reapers are clearly the antagonist because they are the crux of the conflict since the first game. TIM isn't introduced until the second installment and isn't an antagonistic force until the third, even then he's an extension of the Reapers like Saren. He's an interesting character and a great parallel, but I still think his importance should have ended before the climax; the protagonist and the antagonist face off in the climax yet it's TIM who we deal with in the resolution, it just feels off to me.

In the books, TIM royally screws over Aria, and in the comics takes over Omega from her. In a perfect world, I would have concluded his story with an epic Omega-take back sequence that included TIM, Aria, the gangs, Miranda's story with her sister and father, and Kai Leng. Then move on to the whole Take Back Earth ending.

[jwillis7]

this was great

[Qutayba]

Gloatie wrote...

Still, I frankly don't see why anyone should give a ****.

True, it's only a game, and the Earth isn't actually destroyed by it.  But I let myself get immersed and emotionally wound up in a BioWare game, just like you might let youself get wrapped up in a Tear-Jerker movie even when you know they're manipulating your feelings.  Not everyone is into that, and that's fine.

Let us be emo.

[martiancake]

This exactly. I didn't come away from the ending filled with questions because my mind was blown, but because it didn't make any sense that this was how ME ended.

[ddman12]

A well thought out and excellent post. Thank you for this.

[bpzrn]

"Nothing is gained by breaking convention and attempting to make the ending enigmatic or profound. Assuming
this was the writers' goal, this is another failing. Some believe,
myself included, that the writers' tried to use the jarring impact of an
unconventional, imperfect ending to hammer home a message or theme
(presumably: pre-destination, the uncontrollable nature of fate, and the
individual's limited ability to impact the world). This, however, come
at the cost of the story and the audience's pleasure, a cost that is far
too high for the nature of storytelling."



So so true, very nice read thank you

[WarBaby2]

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

Warning: Long as hell. Jesus.

But true... sadly, BW didn't have that kind of expertise... it seems.^^

I still don't get it... more and more negative voices can be "heard" all over the major gaming sites... and all that comes from them is "we listen". Time is running short folks... soon, all you'll here is silence.

[Flashlegend]

Wonderful post.

[JustinS1985]

100% agree, I only wish I was half as eloquent when I'm discussing ME3. =p

[Meltemph]

Just hope people look at this before creating topics saying the ending is fine. If you think it is fine, great, but explain away these issues for us before just stating it like it should be accepted.

[Sainta117]

Very well explicated. I'm still not sure I agree with your dismissal of the deus ex machina, although I do see your point that it doesn't actually resolve the central conflict, but I think this is more a result of your larger point that the ending as a whole fails to resolve anything *at all.* Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that transparent hoodie kid is *supposed* to be a deus ex machina, but like everything else in the ill-conceived enterprise that is the ending of ME3, it fails to achieve its purpose.