831 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

Regardless of where you stand on things, this was quite a good read.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

I agree with this topic.

[Vaktathi]

Good read, good to hear from someone in the routine business of writing get their voice in on this.

[Raxxman]

Nice post,

Like a few I don't agree with you on the Crucible. It's just something we're told is important, we're never told why it's important. And I feel that's enough for a MacGuffin.

While you feel the use of tropes to be lazy, I feel that one trope is kinda responsible for a lot of the jaring which occurs in ME. Which is the attempt to use the Rule of Cool too much. This started in ME2, whereby the artbook explains that the reason why Jacob and Mirranda use face masks and not helmets (they clearly state it was because they felt it looked better, even though it was thematically inconsistant) this carries on with Samaras cleavage in ME2, and plays a prominant role in ME3 (Why doesn't the reaper shoot down the Normandy on Earth in the opening scene? The whole context of the reaper there is to look cool, be awesome and threatening, but it adds plot holes.) ME3 is generally full of situations whereby they take the option which is more cool and less coherient, but I feel the ending suffers most because of it. The whole ending is generally contrived to create the 'most epic battle ever' that it ends up loosing sight of it's purpose, which is to conclude the story.

IMO at least

[Mallissin]

The Crucible is a symbol of the combined effort of previous cycles to stop the Reapers.

The Catalyst is a McGuffin. We are never told what it is or what it does, but that we need it.

Even the end, you can't be sure the starchild is really the Catalyst either. The only person who tells us that is the Prothean VI after it was hacked by Cerberus.

Which we can't trust anymore because it was hacked by Cerberus, but most people assume it's being honest like Vigil in ME1.

Modifié par Mallissin, 16 mars 2012 - 01:48 .

[Stonesoundjam]

What would you have done for the ending sequence? Potential TLDR warning..

I'm quite happy with the game up to the point they stormed the reaper/citadel/thing and got zapped 

What I would have changed would have been the content in Shepard's dream sequence, and consequently what The Crucible actually does. What I chose ties in more with the concept of choice and that no matter how varies our Shepards are, they have a bearing on one another..

Instead of space Casper dream chases in the woods, I'd have dream sequences on the Normandy where Shepard would meet Ashley or Kaiden (whoever died on Virmire) and have conversations with them as if they hadn't died. Then have Shepard waking up all panicked.

In another dream I'd have Shepard's love interest conversing with Shep. Except it wouldn't be the love interest you chose but one of the other options. And it would be in the Normandy but in a slightly different colour scheme. Shep would wake up then bewildered.

Another dream sequence would have Shepard wake up in the dream, but in a slightly different again looking Normandy. And instead of your choice of gender Shep, it would be the opposite gender Shep. Then our Shepard would wake up confused..

Fast forward to the end bits. And the slow shambling 15 minute death walk.

So by the end, the reveal would be that the Crucible instead of being the lovably pointless thing it is now, would rather be a weapon capable of destroying the Reapers but requiring a huge expense of energy to do so. 

How it gains that energy is by absorbing realities. 

Shepard then learns from starchild, or a piece of toast, whichever is less silly, that actually there is a host of realities out there, all suffering the fate of the Reaper invasion every 50000 years. 

Through a portal mirror, the toast shows Shepard the different realities. Some Shepards male, some female, some black, white, long hair, bearded etc. Each with their own love interests etc.. The point being the multitude of alternate worlds, with alternate Shepards, all living under the Reaper countdown in their own respective realities.

So then our Shepard is given a decision to make. Kind of like what we're put through at the end. Only with less suckage.

Option 1: Shepard destroys the reapers at the energy expense of negating all the other realities. Shepard's reality becomes the only one left. The reapers explode like baby prawns in District 9. In the portal mirror Shepard sees as the other Shepard's in their respective worlds holding loved ones, friends while their universes fold in on themselves out of existance. (Then to the epilogue of the choice 1)

Option 2: Shepard chooses to destroy the reapers but assigns the energy cost to her own reality, destroying her own timeline/reality but saving all the other universes for the other Shepards from the Reapers. If this choice is made then Shepard is given the opportunity to address all other realities through the portal mirror before her universe ends. (Option 2: epilogue)   

Option 3: Shepard decides to keep all the universes alive, including her own and resultingly the lack of sufficient energy only results in postponing the reapers this cycle and not destroying them completely. (epilogue of this choice)  

Option 4: Kinect colour code dance fight with Harbinger. (if u win you get a space hamster outfit unlock then you are made to choose again from the other options)

Option 5: Control the reapers. Nah kidding. That's just silly. I mean that would just violate the narrative thrust established since the very beginning, and contradict everything that Shepard is about. Aren't you glad I'm no pro unlike the quality guys in Bioware? Control the reapers... El oh el.

And so to the respective epilogues. Needless to say they would also be supplemented by Dragon Age style text bits like "Admiral Anderson retired and moved to Maine where he started a small fishing tackle business. He is currently dating an unnamed ex-N7 employee" etc... But each option would have a unique closing sequence like these..

Option 1 epilogue: (fade in from black) Shepard wakes up in bed. But not on the Normandy. Bird sounds.

In a house somewhere on Earth. Love interest beside Shepard. Shep wakes and goes to the kitchen. Makes coffee. Walks out the front door. Beautiful scenery and the sun is about to break. Shep sips coffee looking to the horizon.

Shep V.O: I think about what I've done. What it has cost. What it has taken everyone and everything to get to right now. Here. This moment. Mordin, Thane, Pressly. And all those others out there to which I had to do what I did. There are not enough words and I could talk forever about it. So what I'll say is this...

(sunlight breaks over the earth)

Shep V.O: I thank you all. I'll never forget you. Any of you. And for what it's worth. What it's taken to get here to right now. This moment... 

(we see the golden sun wash over Shepard's face and smile)

Shep v.o: ...Is completely beautiful. (Mass Effect credits) 

Option 2 epilogue: the scene cuts to different Shepards on different universes on different Normandys all being hailed by our Shepard. On screen our Shep then tells them through convo wheel choices about whats been chosen and done and the sacrifice that's about to be made

Shep: "I came into this like every one of you the same way. I've been beat up, put down, tired, scared and more than once been left there with nothing left to give."

"All I've really had to cling to is hope. So as I do this, for all of us. I say to all of you out there."

"Live. Live out the rest of your lives without fear and live those lives as hard as you can. Make it all worth it
Live them for you. Live them for us. Live them for me."

Shepard pushes the button on the crucible. Reapers pop like Pop rocks. Things explode. Fade to white

A child runs out with a toy Normandy. Whizzing and running through a throng of people. She's on the Citadel. And there's a congregation. And a podium. A voice speaks.

Alt universe reverse gender Shep: "A world has gone. A universe. A galaxy of it's own. A choice was made to sacrifice their own fates to better ours. So we're here to show our gratitude. And to remember we owe this peace to them. And so this  statue in the heart of the Citadel, will stand as a marker of that unselfish love."

A statue unveils of Shepard. Then to another statue. And another. Across different universes. A statue in each citadel across every one of the adjacent universes. Each one being addressed by a different look Shepard. 

Beneath a plaque reads "Live. Live out the rest of your lives without fear and live those lives as hard as you can. Make it all worth it. Live them for you. Live them for us. Live them for me. - Shepard. 

The Shepard in that universe closes his/her eyes. Reaches out and touches the plaque. And mouths the words, "Thank you." (end credits)

Option 3 epilogue: Shepard makes the choice. The reapers sound that massive thing they do and the ships vanish one by one. As if sucked down a vortex. Against their will.

Reapers v.o: "All you have bought is time, Shepard. We will return. And the fate of your galaxy remains inevitable."

There is tremendous reverberation as  space flushes the Reapers elsewhere. Everyones fat on the Normandy jiggles. Ships shake violently. Even on Earth. Tremors. Shepard and Anderson are thrown around and fall out of the craft onto the ground. Shepard hits her head and passes out. Fade to black.

Scene - Huerta Memorial.

Shepard awakes bruised, battered and bandaged. Light streams in through lourves. The Love interest is there. Or not, EDI.

"Commander you okay?"
"God, I feel awful."
"You've been out for days."
"The Reapers. What happened?"
"Gone, I think. At least for now."
"Well, then I gotta get up. We need to find these bastards before they get a.."
"Maybe you should just rest awhile Commander. Just take a rest, I don't think the Reapers are coming back today."

They take a moment. Shepard looks out the window.. Then speaks.

"I think I've failed. The Reapers are still out there. Waiting for their moment. They'll be back the bastards"

The Love Interest or EDI sits by the bed. Rests a hand on Shepard's shoulder.

"Then I guess you can't in good conscience retire can you?"
"I was looking forward to it."

A ladybug flies out over the citadel. Lands on a panel. It's the wing of the Normandy. Gleaming in the sun.

"Well you know Shepard. This job has it's perks. I think you'll miss them."
"Getting shot at. Thrown around. Military food?", smiles Shepard.
"Friends. Compatriots. Making a difference."
"You really don't see me getting out of this, do you?"
"No Shepard. I do not. I think you'd be bored out your mind. I think you'd be fat and hooked on Quasar 3 months onto retirement'"
Shepard laughs. They both laugh. Shepard then gets serious.

"You do know they'll return eventually. Someday, some time."
"Yes. And you'll be there."
"I'll be there. Always."

The crew of the Normandy do their thing. Fire up engines. Looking busy.. Etc.

"Anyway Commander, when you're ready, Admiral Hackett sent us something he'd like you to have a look at."
"Sure send it to me. I guess there's always something in the galaxy that needs saving."
"Theres nothing to it really. Not when the galaxy has you, Commander."

They salute. Shepard salutes back and grins. 

The Normandy tears through the sky with victory music playing. (end credits)


  



 



   

[Eternalsteelfan]

Vaktathi wrote...

Good read, good to hear from someone in the routine business of writing get their voice in on this.

In all fairness, I'm a collegiate screenwriter. It's my area of expertise, it's what I'm trained to do and I'm very confident in my skills. They've taught me just about everything that can be about screenwriting, but making money, well, that's the hard part. A little bit of skill and a whole hell of a lot of luck is what it takes. As soon as I can it'll be off to LA to fail not-so spectacularly and bus tables for the rest of my life.

[kyrieee]

Thank you for that analysis

[frylock23]

Thank you for this post. It says it all pretty perfectly. You don't end something by making it more complicated.

[ThePasserby]

Great write-up. Most of us have an intuitive feel of what is good or bad writing, but you've articulated very well the reasons why so many are dissatisfied with the ending.

Furthermore, it throws into stark relief Bioware's attempt at sourcing for comments for the ending through twitter. You want us to condense well-formed opinions like those in the OP into 140 characters, Bioware?

[rudenotginger]

Thank you for taking the time to write this. I studied literature, writing and storytelling a few years ago and elements you brought up have been nagging me since I finished the game yesterday.

The ending simply baffles me. Like you said, the games individually and as a whole follow the Three Acts structure. The writers did a great job on the games as a whole and tell a compelling, complete story. They are cleary not incompetents, they are talented professionals. So what the heck happened? How could it suddenly go so wrong? Did these professionals really think that suddenly flipping the bird to the conventions of the Three Acts structure in the last five minutes of the game was going to work? I just don't get it. It feels like a completely different person, who has no idea what they are doing in terms of storytelling, and liked the Fables II "three choices ending" thing, wrote the conclusion. I'm not disappointed, not angry, just... baffled.

[havoc373]

very good post.
nice to see an analysis of the ending from someone who more or less knows what he's talking about.

[Meltemph]

Either way this was a really well put together thread.

[rudenotginger]

I hope Bioware reads this and takes notes.

[Tovanus]

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

Tovanus wrote...

I disagree with the point about the Crucible not being a McGuffin or Deus Ex Machina.

The Crucible is never explained. They throw it in our faces that "we have no idea what this thing will do." When it finally gets used, we still have no idea why it did what it did, or why we get to interact with the Catalyst. It's a very, very unexplained plot point.

The Crucible is a deus ex machina. IF this story were the only Mass Effect story, I could agree with the point made that it is not. But this is the third game in a trilogy. They built up a threat for untold hours (depending on how long your playthroughs were of Mass Effect 1 and 2). Mass Effect 3 begins by saying, "Hey, you know that race of invaders that seems impossibly strong? We've discovered at the start the plans for a device that will grant us total victory. We have no idea what it does."  As a trilogy, I think what they did with the Crucible qualifies as a Deus Ex Machina. Had Mass Effect not been a trilogy, and this was some random stand-alone title, I think you would be right.

There should have been a huge story to discovering the plans for a device that could stop the Reapers, and there should have been an explanation as to why the Protheans BELIEVED it could stop them, as you seek it. Instead, it was introduced with no foreshadowing (nothing in ME 1 or Me 2 indicated a single superweapon had been worked on by the Protheans that would win the war), then kicked to the side until the very end of the game (war assets assisting in its construction does not really develop it as a story), then you see it in the end where it still wasn't explained, but a literal "god from the machine" appeared because of it and ended the war.

True, I did not specify whether I meant the trilogy as a whole or just the third game in reference to the Crucible being deus ex machina. In the scope of the third game it definitely is not, but in the big picture of the trilogy the case could be made. I haven't formed an opinion yet, in that regard; the Reapers had just invaded when they introduced the Crucible so it was pretty late but I don't know if I'd say it's deus ex late. It's a toss up. Either way, I'd say it's obvious they created a new silver bullet post ME2 since, for whatever reason, the dark energy thing didn't pan out.

Thanks for responding. I forgot to say it before, but I really did enjoy your post. Hope it stays at the forefront.

[ph0enix66]

sums up at least my feeling perfectly. OP, you, sir, are a true genius.

[Eternalsteelfan]

rudenotginger wrote...

Thank you for taking the time to write this. I studied literature, writing and storytelling a few years ago and elements you brought up have been nagging me since I finished the game yesterday.

The ending simply baffles me. Like you said, the games individually and as a whole follow the Three Acts structure. The writers did a great job on the games as a whole and tell a compelling, complete story. They are cleary not incompetents, they are talented professionals. So what the heck happened? How could it suddenly go so wrong? Did these professionals really think that suddenly flipping the bird to the conventions of the Three Acts structure in the last five minutes of the game was going to work? I just don't get it. It feels like a completely different person, who has no idea what they are doing in terms of storytelling, and liked the Fables II "three choices ending" thing, wrote the conclusion. I'm not disappointed, not angry, just... baffled.

Yeah, there's such a huge disparity of quality between the ending and the rest of the series. Again, my thinking returns to that loose leaf Walters wrote on; very unrefined ideas and then in big letters, "Lots of speculation from everyone". Controversy by design.

[Meltemph]

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

rudenotginger wrote...

Thank you for taking the time to write this. I studied literature, writing and storytelling a few years ago and elements you brought up have been nagging me since I finished the game yesterday.

The ending simply baffles me. Like you said, the games individually and as a whole follow the Three Acts structure. The writers did a great job on the games as a whole and tell a compelling, complete story. They are cleary not incompetents, they are talented professionals. So what the heck happened? How could it suddenly go so wrong? Did these professionals really think that suddenly flipping the bird to the conventions of the Three Acts structure in the last five minutes of the game was going to work? I just don't get it. It feels like a completely different person, who has no idea what they are doing in terms of storytelling, and liked the Fables II "three choices ending" thing, wrote the conclusion. I'm not disappointed, not angry, just... baffled.

Yeah, there's such a huge disparity of quality between the ending and the rest of the series. Again, my thinking returns to that loose leaf Walters wrote on; very unrefined ideas and then in big letters, "Lots of speculation from everyone". Controversy by design.

Ya that is my thinking as well... Just I assumed they did it to sell DLC, not because they thought it was a great way to end the trilogy.

[Atraiyu Wrynn]

Excellent read.

[Nobrandminda]

The thing I love about this thread is that it illustrates something I've been saying all along.

It's not that we don't like the ending. It's that the ending is bad.

[jules_vern18]

This post exemplifies everything I've been trying to express about the ending. Thank you, OP.

[Reidbynature]

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

Warning: Long as hell. Jesus.

Yes it was, but it was also insightful and well worded (though I almost TL;DR lol).  I really hope this gets noticed.  It spells out on a basic and technical level what was wrong with the writing and presentation of the ending of Mass Effect 3.

[Darth Tulak Hord]

Thank you for the post op. It was an excellent read and eloquently sums up my own opinions on why the current ending is just bad. Hold The Line!

[ThePasserby]

This thread needs to be read by Bioware, especially Mac "Lots of Speculations!" Walters. They need to realise their folly.

[rizengrad]

I love you for this post, OP.