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Musings of a Screenwriter: The Ending Thread


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#201
djspectre

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Lurchibald wrote...


None of that fills the plot hole of why Shepard is meant to believe that anything the Catalyst says is true. Why (after so long of fighting the Reapers) would Shepard believe what the king of the Reapers says? :?

Personally, My Shepard would have said, "Screw your options, we'll try to beat you the conventional way!"


I agree that that could be seen as a plot hole, but the fact remains that every species in the galaxy put everything they had into the crucible and admitted openly several times that they didn't have a damn clue as to what it actually did. Add to that the fact that Shepard is dying, beaten and desperate, and it's easy to see why he accepted what the Catalyst said as truth. 

Modifié par djspectre, 16 mars 2012 - 11:17 .


#202
Lurchibald

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djspectre wrote...

Lurchibald wrote...


None of that fills the plot hole of why Shepard is meant to believe that anything the Catalyst says is true. Why (after so long of fighting the Reapers) would Shepard believe what the king of the Reapers says? :?

Personally, My Shepard would have said, "Screw your options, we'll try to beat you the conventional way!"


I agree that that could be seen as a plot hole, but the fact remains that every species in the galaxy put everything they had into the crucible and admitted openly several times that they didn't have a damn clue as to what it actually did. Add to that the fact that Shepard is dying, beaten and desperate, and it's easy to see why he accepted what the Catalyst said as truth. 


Shepard being "Beaten" and "Desperate" is a matter of opinion. My Shepard (form my playing and understanding of her) wouldn't have given up her resolve and spirit up that easily, and surely not to the King of the Reapers.

Modifié par Lurchibald, 16 mars 2012 - 11:22 .


#203
Eternalsteelfan

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djspectre wrote...

in response to the OP on page 1.....


1.The ending felt jarring only because you are looking at it in a limited context as well as not truly considering the medium. The entire trilogy was based on the fact that it was one giant story, not 3 segments chained together independently.

2.When it comes to make a choice as to how to end the story, it's easy to say "why do we have to have the choices explained to us?" but in a video game where (I played insanity on my first play through) where you can easily get bogged down in the details of combat and mission objectives sometimes you need a reminder.

3.Further, the idea of injecting new information at the end of a story may sound like a poor idea, but here is why it's often a good one.

Protagonists must change throughout the course of the story for it to have any meaning to the audience. Often times this change culminates with their final acts, sometimes surprising us with their resolution.

The fact that movies and novels often leave out these creative thought processes that the characters go through so that it's more stunning when we witness it doesn't work in video games because the player is in control of the story. In movies and novels we are being told, in games we are doing the telling.

The only way to convey this sense of spontaneity is through introducing new information.

Up till the end of ME3, we were presented with the obvious choice of destroying the Reapers or agreeing with the Illusive man to control them. Sure destroying them would be the logical choice.....if this were a novel or movie. But this isn't. It's a game that based it's entire plot around the choices you make as a player. I'm immersed in this universe, I WANT more choices. And until now, I only had two and this interesting 3rd one that popped up makes it more MY story and less like a movie or novel.

4. I've heard people say the ending was vague or unclear, that simply isn't true. The Catalyst explains the general outcome of each choice Shepard can make at the end. It never goes into details about every single affect of all your previous choices that might feed into it, but then again it doesn't and shouldn't have to. We make all kinds of choices everyday based on partial information. Why would Shepard be faced with anything less?

Further, the fact that we don't get an epilogue for every character might be disappointing, but in the context of storytelling, it's no necessary. Sure, as a fan, I'd like to see how it all panned out for all my favorite turians, humans, asari and salarians, but that would make the ending longer than Return of the King and my ass already hurts sitting in this chair for 40 hours mashing keys to keep husks from eating me.

5. The fact that people can't appreciate an ending that doesn't literally spell it out for them in graphic detail (which is actually hypocritical of the earlier sentiment made about how the exposition with the Illusive man was 'jarring' and unnecessary), is a symptom of individuals accustomed to being spoon fed their ideas instead of enjoying their own imagination is not a fault of the writers or the execution of that writing within the game.

The one point I will concede is that the entire thrust of this game was the fight against the Reapers, not Cerberus and not the illusive man. I found the interaction, even if it was only once, with Sovereign to be delightful and entertaining. It proved that it was in fact Sovereign pulling the strings in ME1 and not Saren.

The same could be said with Harbinger in ME2 and definitely had continuity potential in ME3, yet it was wasted and instead the villainy was muddled by the Cerberus plotline.

The switcheroo in ME1 where you find out who the real bad guy is was fantastic. An already difficult threat is suddenly replaced by an infinity more difficult one. But in ME3, the massive Reaper fleet was one-upped by a chain smoker.

While I feel that the ending of the game was perfect for the series, there will always be detractors and critics. Some say the ending didn't reflect or even care about their choices along the way, need to realize something: the game was always about choice, the ending reflected that motif.

All the other individual choices you made throughout the 2 previous games were simply to emotionally invest the person in the characters...to make you want to save the galaxy for their sake, for their friendship with you, for their love for you. When they died during your journey, it was supposed to be a reminder of how fragile life is and how important it is to succeed.

Whether you left ashley to die, got half your squad killed in the Omega-4, allowed Tali and Legion to have a love child, or let Garrus finally finish his calibrations wasn't supposed to have a direct impact on the final choice. The final choice always rested on Shepards shoulders squarely. And that is exactly how the game went out.


I'll try to address some of your points neatly. The numbers I added to your quote are my own for organization.

1. I'm not sure where you getting the idea that I'm limiting the scope of my critique to Mass Effect 3 as a stand alone game. I've repeatedly addressed issues in relation to the entire series as a whole.

2. The issue I raise isn't that we are given too much information, but rather this information is given to us as exposition instead of visuals.

3. The issue isn't with the introduction of new information, but the timing. The resolution is probably the worst time in a story to start adding new information.

4. I'd say this sense of vagueness and lack of clarity largely stems from what I've said about exposition vs. showing us. The exposition itself is also unclear at times and doesn't give enough information.

5. To say that those who oppose the ending simply don't appreciate it or "don't get it" is to be ignorant to all the many points raised by myself and others.

#204
djspectre

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Lurchibald wrote...

djspectre wrote...

Lurchibald wrote...


None of that fills the plot hole of why Shepard is meant to believe that anything the Catalyst says is true. Why (after so long of fighting the Reapers) would Shepard believe what the king of the Reapers says? :?

Personally, My Shepard would have said, "Screw your options, we'll try to beat you the conventional way!"


I agree that that could be seen as a plot hole, but the fact remains that every species in the galaxy put everything they had into the crucible and admitted openly several times that they didn't have a damn clue as to what it actually did. Add to that the fact that Shepard is dying, beaten and desperate, and it's easy to see why he accepted what the Catalyst said as truth. 


Shepard being "Beaten" and "Desperate" is a matter of opinion. My Shepard (form my playing and understanding of her) wouldn't have given up her resolve and spirit up that easily, and surely not to the King of the Reapers.


He was beaten, he got hit by a freaking reaper laser!!! And desperate would be accurate also considering Hackett says in a com-message that they are getting hammered out side the citadel while you're talking to the mini-ghostbuster. 

#205
Adugan

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Interesting, OP. What kind of screenplays do you write?

#206
Eternalsteelfan

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Adugan wrote...

Interesting, OP. What kind of screenplays do you write?


The kind that some underpaid guy in the basement of a major film studio looks at for two minutes before deciding he doesn't want to send it up the ladder.

I'm educated in film and media arts with an emphasis on writing for the screen; short films, feature length, or serials.

#207
k177sh0t

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Worth every second to read

Well done

#208
Qareen

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great post from OP. very interesting and informative.

#209
CheekyWeazel

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@OP Really interesting read, thank you for writing all this down. (Need to refresh my English, didnt understand everything but i think i got about 90 % hehe)


I would really like to know what your Opinion is about the Logic of the "Starchild".

Catalyst: "The Reapers are my solution, Synthetics who kill Organics to prevent Organics from creating Synthetics who will kill Organics."

#210
Norrax

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great post!

-hold the line-

#211
Eternalsteelfan

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CheekyWeazel wrote...

@OP Really interesting read, thank you for writing all this down. (Need to refresh my English, didnt understand everything but i think i got about 90 % hehe)


I would really like to know what your Opinion is about the Logic of the "Starchild".

Catalyst: "The Reapers are my solution, Synthetics who kill Organics to prevent Organics from creating Synthetics who will kill Organics."


The idea that synthetics and organics are doomed  to war with each other resulting in the erradication of organic life has no empirical evidence and the history of the geth, along with the possibility of a peaceful resolution to their conflict with the quarians, directly contradicts it.

Modifié par Eternalsteelfan, 16 mars 2012 - 12:39 .


#212
JasmoVT

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Eternalsteelfan wrote...

Warning: Long as hell. Jesus.



Yes actually thinking about something takes time. Remember "any thought that can be put in a nutshell belongs there."

Great analysis OP.

#213
DemGeth

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Could of used more exposition at the end no doubt.

Ending was fine besides that.

#214
Wintermancer

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Eternalsteelfan wrote...

A. First, a few pet peeves. Tropes are very popular for making generalizations about parts of stories we dislike, but they have a tendency to be overused and misused.

The Crucible isn't a MacGuffin. The best and most common example of an actual MacGuffin is the briefcase in Pulp Fiction; we don't know what is in the briefcase and we don't know how or why it functions, but it's important because it motivates the characters and drives the plot. Basically, a MacGuffin is important only because it's important. The Crucible in Mass Effect 3 is an actual plot device (a MacGuffin is a very specific subset of this); we are told what it is and what it's function is right from the beginning and it's use in the climax is in line with this.

The Crucible isn't an example of deus ex machina. Again, we know all along that the Crucible's function is to stop the Reapers, it's introduced at the beginning of the story, it's importance is reinforced throughout, and it's function during the climax is in line with what is expected. An example of Mass Effect ending with deus ex machina would be: the Reapers win the battle of Earth and are seemingly unstoppable, suddenly, and with no previous justification, an even more advanced race emerges from deep space and destroys the Reapers, saving Earth. The difference is obvious; one is a clearly defined plot device, the other is a magical fix with no precedent in the story.

Being the only time I'm going to talk about tropes, and for humorous purposes only, here are some I find more accurate for the ending: the lack of resolution after all the setting-shifting events, especially the lack of clarity in regards to the future of the setting and it's characters (including the protagonist and in some cases the antagonist force) may be considered no ending, the Reaper-God-Child and unexpected side effects of the Crucible may be considered diabolus ex machina, and the sudden shift of themes from hope and fighting the impossible fight to that of true art is angsty can be seen as an example of a sudden downer ending. I'm certain there are more we can shoehorn as applicable, but this is as far as I'm willing to go into tropes.

I want to iterate that I dislike how much we over analyze tropes and assign them as labels to similar and overgeneralized devices and themes. Stories are usually divergent enough from other stories that generalizing aspects of them with tropes rarely do them justice and are ambigous enough that what tropes a story actually uses are debatable. I only addressed the aforementioned devices of deus ex machina and MacGuffin because they are venerable and distinct enough that their usage in reference to Mass Effect 3 is clearly wrong. TL;DR: tropes are convenient but our time is better spent looking at the specifics of a given story.


B. The resolution of Mass Effect 3 falls short for many reasons. More than I'd care to get into, truth be told,  so I'll try to punch on at least some of the major failings through the eyes of a screenwriter.


1. The ending feels jarring and out of place and there is little closure, this is a sympton of the ending failing to live up to what we come expect from the story. As I've previously said, "Mass Effect is a conventional story with conventional expectations". A conventional story, almost all stories, follow a pretty standard plotline: Introduction - Ascending Action - Climax - Descending Action - Resolution. In film we break it up into 3 acts, roughly: the first act is the introduction, the second act is the rising action and longest act of the story, and the third act is the climax and resolution.

Mass Effect 3 and the previous games follow this plotline both as individual stories and in the grand scheme of things as a trilogy (a trilogy is basically the three act structure writ large), that is until the final moments of 3. For reference, The battle for Earth is the climax of the series and the run across no man's land to the Citadel beam is the climax of the specific game; with this in mind, the Citadel sequence is the final part of the descending action and the resolution for both the game and series, the part where the antagonist is finally defeated, the themes and dramatic questions are answered, and the loose ends are tied. Or rather, it should be. After the defeat of the Illusive Man (the antagonist role is somewhat muddled and blurry towards the end of the story, more on that briefly), the protagonist has reached his goal, the defeat of the Reapers is at hand; conventionally, this is where the protagonist would succeed, the Crucible fire, and the Reapers destroyed. Instead, the story grows convoluted (once again, this is supposed to be the resolution) at the height of the scene by jarring us out of it with the bizarre, dreamlike sequence of Sheperd's ascent on the magic platform and the introduction of an ancient and seemingly god-like form who expounds the final choice between three options, all presented symbolically in appearance and action: one which mirrors a co-antagonist's desire which has been reinforced throughout as wrong and contradictory of the protagonist's; one which is downright bizarre and is almost completely outside the scope of the game's main themes save for being somewhat in line with the primary antagonistic forces' goal; and one which accurately mirrors the protagonist's goal from since the beginning. The results of these choices vary and are wide-reaching, creating a massive upheaval of the story world, while being unclear.  All of the characters and the entire setting are left to an uncertain and sometimes confusing fate.

Just looking at what I've typed, it's apparent this is not a resolution. New information is introduced throughout the entire sequence rather than tying loose ends. New information shouldn't be introduced in a resolution unless it directly resolves something or is quickly resolved itself; definitively, it's the opposite of what a resolution is. In layman's terms, this is what makes us feel like there are more questions than answers.

The fate of the characters and the final destination they reach in the story are crucial to the resolution, especially on the scale of a trilogy. During the ascending action, right before the climax of the no man's land run, we are given a send off from all of the characters; this is both out of order for a conventional plotline (more fitting the descending action rather than ascending) and dimished by the implications of the ending. Ultimately, it is through the characters that we most directly identify with the story and find the meaning, the lack of resolution in this regard is especially unsatisfying.

The resolution is where the audience is supposed to find the tale's "ever after", be it happy or sad. Mass Effect 3 completely lacks any sense of "ever after".


2. Video games, like film, are a visual medium; the ending tells us what happens rather than shows us what happens. This is easy to overlook but very important. Visual mediums for story are all about what we see. Another cardinal sin of storytelling commited during the ending is the description of, and differences between, the options in the final choice are almost all conveyed through exposition. The cinematics themselves, what we actually see, are extremely similar and all the implications of the choice we make are conveyed through what the exposition had told us. This is very poor storytelling and worse still to be considered the resolution.


3. Ambiguity, lack of clarity, plot holes. Relating to the previous points, the ending is excessively ambiguous and unclear. With only unclear exposition before the choice and without sufficient data presented afterwards, many situations are unaccounted for and either lack clarity at best or appear as plot holes at worst. The crash landing of the Normandy is a clear example of this ambiguity, both in it's plausibility and implications for the fate of the crew.


4. Nothing is gained by breaking convention and attempting to make the ending enigmatic or profound. Assuming this was the writers' goal, this is another failing. Some believe, myself included, that the writers' tried to use the jarring impact of an unconventional, imperfect ending to hammer home a message or theme (presumably: pre-destination, the uncontrollable nature of fate, and the individual's limited ability to impact the world). This, however, comes at the cost of the story and the audience's pleasure, a cost that is far too high for the nature of storytelling.


5. The resurgence and emphasis on The Illusive Man during the resolution as well as the lack of interaction with the Reapers and, more specifically, Harbinger,  detracts from the Reapers as the antagonist. A lot of people expected a "boss fight" of sorts or a closing discussion with Harbinger at the end. This is a perfectly understandable and legitimate expectation. During the climax, we are almost defeated by Harbinger, the avatar for the Reapers as antagonist, however, during the resolution, it is the indoctrinated Illusive Man that takes takes center stage. Though he unwittingly is an assisting force for the Reapers, he is not directly representative of them, merely their influence. TIM's role is more fitting that of an obstacle to be overcome during the rising action.

The prominance of The Illusive Man as the final foe to be overcome detracts from the overall threat and importance of the true antagonist, the Reapers.


These points were written as a stream of conscious, I'm sure there are plenty of things I've missed or didn't feel like going in depth about, but I think those are some of the most important ones.


C. As I was writing this I read the Final Hours thread containing comments from Mac Walters and Casey Hudson as well as Walters' scribbled notes for the ending. Honestly I was taken aback.

Judging the content Hudson cut based on his feel for "the moment", I'd say his feel for emotional beats and his judgement of what was expendable for story economy was atrocious. The first Mass Effect was inundated at times with exposition and had very poor economy, this ending, on the other hand, is something of an opposite with not nearly enough information.

Walters' notes scrawled across loose leaf disappointed me. The ideas are clearly not fleshed out at all, strictly drawing board material, the execution we see in game is indicative of that. " Lots of speculation from everyone" is somewhat repulsive, as if providing an unclear, poorly planned ending that leaves your audience unsatisfied and grasping at straws for answers is somehow good storytelling. It gives me the inclination that the ending really was just for publicity.

I hope it continues to backfire.

Anyway, I'm off. Any interest or questions or if you want to pick my brain about storytelling, we'll call this a work in progress.


Spot on. I too am a writer and feel the same way. I also feel like the changes which needed to be made to everything from the moment Shepard returned to the Citadel and squared off with the Illusive man, onward, are far smaller than most people realize now--definitely issues of execution and polish, not neccessarily needing a full blown rewrite. A little goes a long way, so to speak. And the "little" sent the entire game a "long way" off a cliff.

#215
nitefyre410

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Eternalsteelfan wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Will read further, but I just want to point out that people aren't saying the Crucible is a deus ex machina but the Catalyst, or rather what the Catalyst turns out to be.


Yes, but the Catalyst doesn't actually do anything, he/it isn't deus ex machina, the example I gave is. Reaper-god-child is some kind of stand-in for a narrator, expounding an ambiguous, non-sensical origin for the Reapers and what the Crucible is capable of. There's hardly anything to flesh it out as a character and what there is makes little sense.

I'm gonna go with ham-fisted mouthpiece for the writers.

 

 It could really be both at the same time which I'm starting to actually believe either way..  Great post and good read... learned alot from it. all very well said. Especially about  Mr. Hudson at the end. 

Just what was he thinking .... 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 16 mars 2012 - 12:54 .


#216
Nighthunteer

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Amazing, worth the time it took to read!
Great job, and a great way of explaining it all!

#217
the red boon

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I believe star child is a perfect example of deus ex machina. This character comes out of no where and forces 3 identical choices down your throat.

#218
nitefyre410

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Eternalsteelfan wrote...

Warning: Long as hell. Jesus.

 

*wall of Text  hits  Nitefyre for 9999 knowledge points* 

*Nitefyre Lvls up* 

understanding of  writing mechinism  +20 
understand of how  fubar endings of ME 3 are   +50 
resolve to  Hold the line  + 100 

#219
SaladinDheonqar

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Very good read. 5/5

#220
AgentCross

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Very nice job.

Modifié par AgentCross, 16 mars 2012 - 01:04 .


#221
Keltikone

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Good post.

#222
RedundantAccount

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Well said. Thank you.

#223
shevrikuka

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What do you think about indoctrination theory? Sorry if it already has been asked.

#224
KadivyaSky

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Nicely written, OP!

Hold the line!

#225
Iefho

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 Nice post.

In the same fashion:

http://social.biowar...index/9994083/1