71 réponses à ce sujet

[Caelorummors]

There are two things I will discuss here:

A) Reapers, synthetics of the first variety, are not the same as the second synthetics being stopped from killing organics.
         1) Reapers are liquified organics deconstructed by nanobots, where the consciousness is kept intact.
         2) The mind of the reaper is human, the body is synthetic.
         3) If the geth were to kill us pre-resolved quarian conflict, it would be done with synthetic minded synthetic bodied beings which would eventually see us a threat and/or a parasite destroying the galaxy. There is a nonzero probability that organics will evolve to one day rise up against the synthetics, be it terrorists (Cerberus) or otherwise, and thus the only logical conclusion may be to kill all life.
         4) The reapers, being organic minded synthetics,OMS, does not kill everyone they encounter. The harvesting process is used to uplift a species to immortality, by putting the minds of the masses into one synthetic body.
         5) Reapers, being OMS, see killing us as saving all organic life in the future, and future ascensions to immortality, by destroying the present. They do not stop the SMS from killing US, rather, all organic life. It is not OMSynthetics killing organics so that SMSynthetics do not kill organics, it is OMSynthetics killing and uplifting some or the current organics so that organic life may continue instead of SMSynthetics wiping out all organic life.
        6) Reapers do not kill sentient lifeforms, only Sapient lifeforms. This is due to the uplifting process requiring consciousness.


Given that the Quarian conflict can be resolved, many say the options are illogical. To this end we must consider:
         1) The Quarian/Geth conflict is resolved by uploading the Reaper code.
         2) This code does not exist in the first cycle, the first creation of the reapers, thus synthetics killing organics is still very much a real threat to the reapers.
         3) Without the creation of the reapers, Geth could not be ascended to the point of "life" and trustworthiness.
         4) The reaper code, as it is called, is made from the reapers collective consciousness which is made from the deconstruction of organics by nanobots and their reconstruction into one ship. (becoming the nation).
         5) Thus the concept of Synthetic/Organic peace only comes about when one of the two is fused with the other.


I hope that is breif and coherent. Please discuss!

[trembli0s]

Caelorummors wrote...
         4) The reaper code, as it is called, is made from the reapers collective consciousness which is made from the deconstruction of organics by nanobots and their reconstruction into one ship. (becoming the nation).
         5) Thus the concept of Synthetic/Organic peace only comes about when one of the two is fused with the other.


I hope that is breif and coherent. Please discuss!

All you really need is this. Logically, the geth already became the "synthesized" synthetics when you allowed them to upload the code.

Good catch. More holes 

Modifié par trembli0s, 16 mars 2012 - 12:10 .

[Luigitornado]

Meh the game relies on higher logic that it will inevitably happen. Just look at the events of Overlord and how close that was from becoming an apocalyptic scenario. I can accept it.

[Caelorummors]

trembli0s wrote...

Caelorummors wrote...
         4) The reaper code, as it is called, is made from the reapers collective consciousness which is made from the deconstruction of organics by nanobots and their reconstruction into one ship. (becoming the nation).
         5) Thus the concept of Synthetic/Organic peace only comes about when one of the two is fused with the other.


I hope that is breif and coherent. Please discuss!

All you really need is this. Logically, the geth already became the "synthesized" synthetics when you allowed them to upload the code.

Good catch. More holes 

I do not see it as more holes necessarily. I was explaining how the holes can happen for the Reapers. When they were created there was no reaper code and they are still running off of that same assumption in the present. It is obviously a plot hole in the present, but it is not illogical for the reapers to say "We kill you to stop you from making synthetics that will kill everything." if we base their thought process off of this.

[Caelorummors]

Luigitornado wrote...

Meh the game relies on higher logic that it will inevitably happen. Just look at the events of Overlord and how close that was from becoming an apocalyptic scenario. I can accept it.

I'm not arguing against it. I"m saying quite the opposite. I'm saying the Reapers are WRONG, but it is not something that they would have ever considered.

[Deltateam Elcor]

Finally, every time i hear the argument about it, i instantly think that person is a moron.

Though i doubt posting this will decrease the numbers.

[ZacE7]

that was according to the starkid deity

do you believe everything the starkid says

no way it would lie and try and manipulate Shep right

Modifié par ZacE7, 16 mars 2012 - 12:16 .

[GBGriffin]

One thing I'm honestly unclear on:

Why do the Reapers enlist the help of the geth, through Saren and then through the events of 3?

Wouldn't that be using synthetics to kill organics, just indirectly?

[Caelorummors]

ZacE7 wrote...

that was according to the starkid deity

do you believe everything the starkid says

no way he would lie or try and manipulate Shep right

No, this based off of data throughout the games. I understood what the reapers were "before" most people. I had thought of the collective consciousness when talking with Sovereign and knew exactly what was happening to the colonists part way through ME2.

[Caelorummors]

GBGriffin wrote...

One thing I'm honestly unclear on:

Why do the Reapers enlist the help of the geth, through Saren and then through the events of 3?

Wouldn't that be using synthetics to kill organics, just indirectly?

My assumption, and this is knee-jerk not a well thought out argument, is that Sovereign was in a desperate situation due to the protheans changing the keepers enough that they would not open the use of the Citadel as a Mass Relay. Sovereign lost that battle WHILE using the Geth to help him, he would've been massacred without their help.

[GBGriffin]

Caelorummors wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

One thing I'm honestly unclear on:

Why do the Reapers enlist the help of the geth, through Saren and then through the events of 3?

Wouldn't that be using synthetics to kill organics, just indirectly?

My assumption, and this is knee-jerk not a well thought out argument, is that Sovereign was in a desperate situation due to the protheans changing the keepers enough that they would not open the use of the Citadel as a Mass Relay. Sovereign lost that battle WHILE using the Geth to help him, he would've been massacred without their help.

Well, then what about the events of 3? Just an opportunity that presented itself? It seems they had enough forces without the geth, though.

I mean, either way, it essentially violates, in my mind, their entire logic if they enlist the help of synthetics, even in a supporting role, to kill organics.

To me, it's like telling someone "I do not condone punching someone in the face using my own fist, so my friend here who is about to punch you in the face under my orders will do it for me."

Modifié par GBGriffin, 16 mars 2012 - 12:24 .

[Caelorummors]

I suppose that is the right of the Reapers as nonsynthetics: to have logical fallacies which lead to contradicting behavior. I know that in this game the Geth run to the Reapers.

[Zofiya]

Are you assuming that the Reapers' logic is the same as Star Child's, and that their goals and motivations are functionally or actually the same? I.e., this logic is what limited Star Child before the Citadel and Crucible were merged?

[Verit]

Caelorummors wrote...
I'm not arguing against it. I"m saying quite the opposite. I'm saying the Reapers are WRONG, but it is not something that they would have ever considered.

The problem is: why does Shepard actually follow that reasoning in the end?

[Caelorummors]

aristaea wrote...

Are you assuming that the Reapers' logic is the same as Star Child's, and that their goals and motivations are functionally or actually the same? I.e., this logic is what limited Star Child before the Citadel and Crucible were merged?

Yes, that was my assumption, if I understand what angle you're coming from.

[Caelorummors]

-Draikin- wrote...

Caelorummors wrote...
I'm not arguing against it. I"m saying quite the opposite. I'm saying the Reapers are WRONG, but it is not something that they would have ever considered.

The problem is: why does Shepard actually follow that reasoning in the end?

That is why I'm holding the line, I even changed my profile picture to a salarian. For shepard and what happens, the only logical answer I've seen currently is the indoctrination theory. Whether that is hopeful thinking is an issue. I also think that, even if the starchild is only indoctrination, his motives are understood by those who touch the mind of the reapers.

[Rocktel]

1) The Quarian/Geth conflict is resolved by uploading the Reaper code.
2) This code does not exist in the first cycle, the first creation of the reapers, thus synthetics killing organics is still very much a real threat to the reapers.
3) Without the creation of the reapers, Geth could not be ascended to the point of "life" and trustworthiness.
4) The reaper code, as it is called, is made from the reapers collective consciousness which is made from the deconstruction of organics by nanobots and their reconstruction into one ship. (becoming the nation).
5) Thus the concept of Synthetic/Organic peace only comes about when one of the two is fused with the other.

Wrong. The Geth never wanted to kill organics, the Quarians attacked them. Uploading the Reaper code was simply a way to allow the Geth to recover. If the Quarians hadn't attacked them the Geth wouldn't have fought organics.

Modifié par Rocktel, 16 mars 2012 - 12:41 .

[Caelorummors]

greengoron89 wrote...

Caelorummors wrote...

I suppose that is the right of the Reapers as nonsynthetics: to have logical fallacies which lead to contradicting behavior. I know that in this game the Geth run to the Reapers.

I liked it better when the Reapers simply "were" - scrapping the Lovecraftian angle and turning them into misunderstood "benefactors" completely ruins the appeal they had prior to the Catalyst's "revelation."

Unwise to retcon the Reapers in the way they did - it's part of my own personal quarrel with the game's ending.

The reaper's never simply were, but I go off of the assumption that Soveriegn is one of the first reapers. Being around billions of years (assuming life evolves every 50k years, they were around relatively close to the beginning of time, give or take time for the planets to form/cool) makes sovereign and the early reapers see themselves as the Gods they pretend to be. They are immortal. They impose order on the galaxy. They damn nearly "always have been."

[Wowlock]

It is a simple but stupid logic. I even can go and call it a ''kindergarden logic'' since I heard these kind of statements there.

'' I wanted to stop their fight so I hit him , then I brought more of my friends to hit them so they stop fighting.... '' May not be the best example but this logic is based on assumptions therefore it has no '' real'' value to be act upon.

Hell...Organics kill eachother more often then Syntetics interacting with Organics....I am still wonder how they didn't pick another organic race by using this logic '' I picked a group of organics to kill other organics soo they can stop killing eachother... '' because this sounds more fitting to their logic...

[Caelorummors]

That is a strawman argument. Relating their argument to something the Reapers do not assert in order to weaken the argument is just bad form. Organic life is the object of value in the minds of the reapers, as organic consciousness that has been transcended. Given that consciousness is so important that they spend time to harvest certain races to make more reapers, it may very well be your second argument, with the first organic race being protected by being turned into a reaper, and those candidates not sufficient for reaper transformation are simply killed.

[TeamRyan]

GBGriffin wrote...

Caelorummors wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

One thing I'm honestly unclear on:

Why do the Reapers enlist the help of the geth, through Saren and then through the events of 3?

Wouldn't that be using synthetics to kill organics, just indirectly?

My assumption, and this is knee-jerk not a well thought out argument, is that Sovereign was in a desperate situation due to the protheans changing the keepers enough that they would not open the use of the Citadel as a Mass Relay. Sovereign lost that battle WHILE using the Geth to help him, he would've been massacred without their help.

Well, then what about the events of 3? Just an opportunity that presented itself? It seems they had enough forces without the geth, though.

I mean, either way, it essentially violates, in my mind, their entire logic if they enlist the help of synthetics, even in a supporting role, to kill organics.

To me, it's like telling someone "I do not condone punching someone in the face using my own fist, so my friend here who is about to punch you in the face under my orders will do it for me."

To me its like teaming up to play king of the hill with a few friends, and realizing as you are teaming up there can only be one king of the hill, and offing your friend as soon as all other competition is eliminated. It isn't a logical fallacly it is genius thinking.

[Caelorummors]

Rocktel wrote...

1) The Quarian/Geth conflict is resolved by uploading the Reaper code.
2) This code does not exist in the first cycle, the first creation of the reapers, thus synthetics killing organics is still very much a real threat to the reapers.
3) Without the creation of the reapers, Geth could not be ascended to the point of "life" and trustworthiness.
4) The reaper code, as it is called, is made from the reapers collective consciousness which is made from the deconstruction of organics by nanobots and their reconstruction into one ship. (becoming the nation).
5) Thus the concept of Synthetic/Organic peace only comes about when one of the two is fused with the other.

Wrong. The Geth never wanted to kill organics, the Quarians attacked them. Uploading the Reaper code was simply a way to allow the Geth to recover. If the Quarians hadn't attacked them the Geth wouldn't have fought organics.

For now. All it would take is one crazy Quarian or one terrorist group that thinks organic life is the best life (good thing they don't exist in this galaxy right?)  to attack the Geth for them to retaliate in force. Already there is a 100% chance organic life will attack the geth. It has happened on more than one occassion. It will continue to happen so long as organic life persists. It is pretty simple to see where this is going. This logic is prereaper code btw.

[shepard1038]

The Guardian lied, when you chosed the destroy ending and the old man is talking he said that that
happen long ago so the organics haven't been wiped out yet. And like Shepard said if you turn us
in to reapers you're taking away our future and without future we may just be machines programmed
what to do. And the organics don't need machines to live. The Guardian lied he said Shepard was
part synthetics, yet he didn't die on the destroy ending.