71 réponses à ce sujet

[SyxxByNyne]

Well, then what about the events of 3? Just an opportunity that presented itself? It seems they had enough forces without the geth, though.

I mean, either way, it essentially violates, in my mind, their entire logic if they enlist the help of synthetics, even in a supporting role, to kill organics.

To me, it's like telling someone "I do not condone punching someone in the face using my own fist, so my friend here who is about to punch you in the face under my orders will do it for me."

Furthermore, if they wanted to prevent the annihilation of organics by synthetics, woulnd't they also need to eliminate the Geth so that they didn't expand and dominate the letfover (and necessarily less advanced) organic species that lived after the reaping?

[Caelorummors]

SyxxByNyne wrote...

Well, then what about the events of 3? Just an opportunity that presented itself? It seems they had enough forces without the geth, though.

I mean, either way, it essentially violates, in my mind, their entire logic if they enlist the help of synthetics, even in a supporting role, to kill organics.

To me, it's like telling someone "I do not condone punching someone in the face using my own fist, so my friend here who is about to punch you in the face under my orders will do it for me."

Furthermore, if they wanted to prevent the annihilation of organics by synthetics, woulnd't they also need to eliminate the Geth so that they didn't expand and dominate the letfover (and necessarily less advanced) organic species that lived after the reaping?

Logically yes. Divide and conquer easily. Geth are no match alone.

[Caelorummors]

greengoron89 wrote...

Caelorummors wrote...

The reaper's never simply were, but I go off of the assumption that Soveriegn is one of the first reapers. Being around billions of years (assuming life evolves every 50k years, they were around relatively close to the beginning of time, give or take time for the planets to form/cool) makes sovereign and the early reapers see themselves as the Gods they pretend to be. They are immortal. They impose order on the galaxy. They damn nearly "always have been."

And I liked that, and it should've stayed that way. We don't really need to know the specifics of why the Reapers do what they do, or where they came from - they simply "are" as Sovereign stated, and their goals are "beyond our comprehension."

Now, after eons of mass genocide on a galactic scale, we finally be rid of them forever - no deus ex machina needed to be involved for that to happen, and only convoluted things to the point where fans are bucking the developers like a bull.

It isn't Deus ex machina. It is introduced immediately into the game. We spend all of the game either getting troops or getting scientists to help figure out why it doesn't work, and it is part of the climax. It would only be deus ex machina if we were introduced to it randomly thoughout the game. We were looking for a way to defeat the reapers through two games, found a blueprint that was incomplete, and spent time completing it. I don't know what you expected other than that.

[Ja5ck]

Everyone pointed out what I was about to, so i'll just focus on two things; in ME1, the reapers actually caused the Geth to become hostile in the first place, AKA circular logic. And also, in every meaning of the term Reapers are synthetic. They are designed, and they are constructed. They did not evolve (as far as we've been lead to believe), and they aren't birthed. Just because they are constructed using the melted down substances of organics does not mean the are in any way even partly organic. Lets say we created a plane, but instead of using aluminum, we grew the parts with organic tissue. And instead of using fuel, we just had to feed it fodder. It is still synthetic because it was designed, and it was constructed to meet a certain demand or purpose. That is the difference between synthetic and organic.

[Ja5ck]

Caelorummors wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

Caelorummors wrote...

The reaper's never simply were, but I go off of the assumption that Soveriegn is one of the first reapers. Being around billions of years (assuming life evolves every 50k years, they were around relatively close to the beginning of time, give or take time for the planets to form/cool) makes sovereign and the early reapers see themselves as the Gods they pretend to be. They are immortal. They impose order on the galaxy. They damn nearly "always have been."

And I liked that, and it should've stayed that way. We don't really need to know the specifics of why the Reapers do what they do, or where they came from - they simply "are" as Sovereign stated, and their goals are "beyond our comprehension."

Now, after eons of mass genocide on a galactic scale, we finally be rid of them forever - no deus ex machina needed to be involved for that to happen, and only convoluted things to the point where fans are bucking the developers like a bull.

It isn't Deus ex machina. It is introduced immediately into the game. We spend all of the game either getting troops or getting scientists to help figure out why it doesn't work, and it is part of the climax. It would only be deus ex machina if we were introduced to it randomly thoughout the game. We were looking for a way to defeat the reapers through two games, found a blueprint that was incomplete, and spent time completing it. I don't know what you expected other than that.

The Crusible may not be a deus ex machina, but the options, starkid, and the resulting outcome are.

[Caelorummors]

Ja5ck wrote...

Everyone pointed out what I was about to, so i'll just focus on two things; in ME1, the reapers actually caused the Geth to become hostile in the first place, AKA circular logic. And also, in every meaning of the term Reapers are synthetic. They are designed, and they are constructed. They did not evolve (as far as we've been lead to believe), and they aren't birthed. Just because they are constructed using the melted down substances of organics does not mean the are in any way even partly organic. Lets say we created a plane, but instead of using aluminum, we grew the parts with organic tissue. And instead of using fuel, we just had to feed it fodder. It is still synthetic because it was designed, and it was constructed to meet a certain demand or purpose. That is the difference between synthetic and organic.

I see what you're asserting. I disagree, on the grounds that what we are on atomic level is essentially the same material, in differing qualities, as that aluminum. What makes us most alive is our consciousness. If I could put my consciousness into a synthetic body, thereby becoming immortal to some degree, I most definitely would. Consciousness makes sapient life what it is. Still, I understand and think you have a valid point. If you'll indulge me, I'll be writing an interesting story for the reapers in a moment. Would not the first repear be made out of necessity of change? Adapting to the environment? Organics taking evolution into their own hands because they had to?

[RVallant]

Ja5ck wrote...

Everyone pointed out what I was about to, so i'll just focus on two things; in ME1, the reapers actually caused the Geth to become hostile in the first place, AKA circular logic. And also, in every meaning of the term Reapers are synthetic. They are designed, and they are constructed. They did not evolve (as far as we've been lead to believe), and they aren't birthed. Just because they are constructed using the melted down substances of organics does not mean the are in any way even partly organic. Lets say we created a plane, but instead of using aluminum, we grew the parts with organic tissue. And instead of using fuel, we just had to feed it fodder. It is still synthetic because it was designed, and it was constructed to meet a certain demand or purpose. That is the difference between synthetic and organic.

They're hybrids... Whether you like it or not.

[WazTheMagnificent]

I don't really see how the uplifting process could preserve consciousness. Consciousness is generated by a series of electrical reactions in the brain. The uplifting process liquefies the brain into goo.

I'm not saying it DOESN'T preserve consciousness, just that it doesn't really make sense that it does.

[Caelorummors]

greengoron89 wrote...

Caelorummors wrote...

It isn't Deus ex machina. It is introduced immediately into the game. We spend all of the game either getting troops or getting scientists to help figure out why it doesn't work, and it is part of the climax. It would only be deus ex machina if we were introduced to it randomly thoughout the game. We were looking for a way to defeat the reapers through two games, found a blueprint that was incomplete, and spent time completing it. I don't know what you expected other than that.

I certainly didn't expect a deus ex machina (hair-splitting notwithstanding) to suddenly occur and offer a dubious solution to all of our problems at the last possible second. As far as we knew (and likely expected), the Crucible was a weapon of some sort - and not an outrageously oversized hacking device.

Look, I appreciate your attempts to try and logically explain the finer elements of the ending, but I don't buy most of it - nor do most others, I'd wager. No amount of explanation will change that. Sorry.

No need to apologize. I enjoy good discussion. I simply see your assertion of DEM leading us to either A) All weapons introduced are DEM regardless of when they are discussed within the flow of the story, or If we don't know how to defeat X strong foe by game 1 of a trilogy it's deus ex machina.

[Rocktel]

Caelorummors wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

1) The Quarian/Geth conflict is resolved by uploading the Reaper code.
2) This code does not exist in the first cycle, the first creation of the reapers, thus synthetics killing organics is still very much a real threat to the reapers.
3) Without the creation of the reapers, Geth could not be ascended to the point of "life" and trustworthiness.
4) The reaper code, as it is called, is made from the reapers collective consciousness which is made from the deconstruction of organics by nanobots and their reconstruction into one ship. (becoming the nation).
5) Thus the concept of Synthetic/Organic peace only comes about when one of the two is fused with the other.

Wrong. The Geth never wanted to kill organics, the Quarians attacked them. Uploading the Reaper code was simply a way to allow the Geth to recover. If the Quarians hadn't attacked them the Geth wouldn't have fought organics.

For now. All it would take is one crazy Quarian or one terrorist group that thinks organic life is the best life (good thing they don't exist in this galaxy right?)  to attack the Geth for them to retaliate in force. Already there is a 100% chance organic life will attack the geth. It has happened on more than one occassion. It will continue to happen so long as organic life persists. It is pretty simple to see where this is going. This logic is prereaper code btw.

That's nothing but speculation.

[Caelorummors]

WazTheMagnificent wrote...

I don't really see how the uplifting process could preserve consciousness. Consciousness is generated by a series of electrical reactions in the brain. The uplifting process liquefies the brain into goo.

I'm not saying it DOESN'T preserve consciousness, just that it doesn't really make sense that it does.

I believe Legion explains how this is possible but I may be wrong. I assert that if we believe in the Grey-box from Kasumi's DLC being able to hold memories, consciousness is not far off.

[Caelorummors]

Rocktel wrote...

Caelorummors wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

1) The Quarian/Geth conflict is resolved by uploading the Reaper code.
2) This code does not exist in the first cycle, the first creation of the reapers, thus synthetics killing organics is still very much a real threat to the reapers.
3) Without the creation of the reapers, Geth could not be ascended to the point of "life" and trustworthiness.
4) The reaper code, as it is called, is made from the reapers collective consciousness which is made from the deconstruction of organics by nanobots and their reconstruction into one ship. (becoming the nation).
5) Thus the concept of Synthetic/Organic peace only comes about when one of the two is fused with the other.

Wrong. The Geth never wanted to kill organics, the Quarians attacked them. Uploading the Reaper code was simply a way to allow the Geth to recover. If the Quarians hadn't attacked them the Geth wouldn't have fought organics.

For now. All it would take is one crazy Quarian or one terrorist group that thinks organic life is the best life (good thing they don't exist in this galaxy right?)  to attack the Geth for them to retaliate in force. Already there is a 100% chance organic life will attack the geth. It has happened on more than one occassion. It will continue to happen so long as organic life persists. It is pretty simple to see where this is going. This logic is prereaper code btw.

That's nothing but speculation.

As is your assertion that the Geth would never break the peace themselves.

[StowyMcStowstow]

This is by far the largest plot hole in the game. The entire point of the Reapers (according to the star-child) is made null and void when you manage a peace between the Geth and Quarians.

[Caelorummors]

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

This is by far the largest plot hole in the game. The entire point of the Reapers (according to the star-child) is made null and void when you manage a peace between the Geth and Quarians.

Yes, but you have to understand what I said: A) Without the creation of the Reapers and the creation of the starchild, and the countless extinctions to get to this point, there would be no peace between Geth and Quarians as the Quarians would've had the means to wipe them out, or at least they would've been in a stalemate of fighting with no peace in sight.  The starchild is still operating under the data available to it at its construction, which hints at the creation of the Reapers as a defense.

[General Tiberius]

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

This is by far the largest plot hole in the game. The entire point of the Reapers (according to the star-child) is made null and void when you manage a peace between the Geth and Quarians.

Only so long as that peace lasts. Who's to say that the same thing hasn't happened in one of the hundreds of cycles the Reapers have previously completed?

[Ja5ck]

RVallant wrote...

Ja5ck wrote...

Everyone pointed out what I was about to, so i'll just focus on two things; in ME1, the reapers actually caused the Geth to become hostile in the first place, AKA circular logic. And also, in every meaning of the term Reapers are synthetic. They are designed, and they are constructed. They did not evolve (as far as we've been lead to believe), and they aren't birthed. Just because they are constructed using the melted down substances of organics does not mean the are in any way even partly organic. Lets say we created a plane, but instead of using aluminum, we grew the parts with organic tissue. And instead of using fuel, we just had to feed it fodder. It is still synthetic because it was designed, and it was constructed to meet a certain demand or purpose. That is the difference between synthetic and organic.

They're hybrids... Whether you like it or not.

Remember that thing where I explained my point? Yeah, now it's your turn...

[pomrink]

OP is viral marketer

[Ja5ck]

Caelorummors wrote...

Ja5ck wrote...

Everyone pointed out what I was about to, so i'll just focus on two things; in ME1, the reapers actually caused the Geth to become hostile in the first place, AKA circular logic. And also, in every meaning of the term Reapers are synthetic. They are designed, and they are constructed. They did not evolve (as far as we've been lead to believe), and they aren't birthed. Just because they are constructed using the melted down substances of organics does not mean the are in any way even partly organic. Lets say we created a plane, but instead of using aluminum, we grew the parts with organic tissue. And instead of using fuel, we just had to feed it fodder. It is still synthetic because it was designed, and it was constructed to meet a certain demand or purpose. That is the difference between synthetic and organic.

I see what you're asserting. I disagree, on the grounds that what we are on atomic level is essentially the same material, in differing qualities, as that aluminum. What makes us most alive is our consciousness. If I could put my consciousness into a synthetic body, thereby becoming immortal to some degree, I most definitely would. Consciousness makes sapient life what it is. Still, I understand and think you have a valid point. If you'll indulge me, I'll be writing an interesting story for the reapers in a moment. Would not the first repear be made out of necessity of change? Adapting to the environment? Organics taking evolution into their own hands because they had to?

Fair enough, and that's an intereting idea with the Reapers taking evolution into their own hands, even if it would disregard starkid's logic (if you could call it that)

[Caelorummors]

Ja5ck wrote...]Fair enough, and that's an intereting idea with the Reapers taking evolution into their own hands, even if it would disregard starkid's logic (if you could call it that)

I don't believe it HAS to disregard the Starkid's logic. Assuming the
first reapers created themselves in order to combat synthetics who
downloaded themselves into a massive network (essentially a synthetic
reaper) as Legion mentions in ME2, it would make sense for the blank to
do the same in order to combat them. They happened to win their war, but
only barely. Thus the cycle began.

Modifié par Caelorummors, 16 mars 2012 - 01:44 .

[Caelorummors]

pomrink wrote...

OP is viral marketer

I thank you, but I simply love ME3 too much to not give proper, perhaps contrived, thought and reasoning into why they would end the gamet his way.

[BigBossBoo]

Given that the Quarian conflict can be resolved, many say the options are illogical. To this end we must consider:
         1) The Quarian/Geth conflict is resolved by uploading the Reaper code.
         2) This code does not exist in the first cycle, the first creation of the reapers, thus synthetics killing organics is still very much a real threat to the reapers.
         3) Without the creation of the reapers, Geth could not be ascended to the point of "life" and trustworthiness.
         4) The reaper code, as it is called, is made from the reapers collective consciousness which is made from the deconstruction of organics by nanobots and their reconstruction into one ship. (becoming the nation).
         5) Thus the concept of Synthetic/Organic peace only comes about when one of the two is fused with the other.

No. The geth have NEVER attacked attacked any organic by themselves.  The only time was when Sovereign led them to attack the organics IE they had the reaper upgrades IE the reaper code.  The code LED them to attack organics.  The geth did NOT EVER attack any organic prior to that code, only defended themselves from extinction.  Just because one defends oneself from extinction doesn't mean they lead to the conclusion "oh we must wipe all life to survive" as is evident that the geth EASILY could have started that process but never did, over centuries.  And that code HAD to have existed in the first cycle or Reapers NEVER could have existed.  The code didn't magically appear when the first reaper was born.

   5) Reapers, being OMS, see killing us as saving all organic life in the future, and future ascensions to immortality, by destroying the present. They do not stop the SMS from killing US, rather, all organic life. It is not OMSynthetics killing organics so that SMSynthetics do not kill organics, it is OMSynthetics killing and uplifting some or the current organics so that organic life may continue instead of SMSynthetics wiping out all organic life. 

1... if their objective is to prevent the end of all life, why don't they, in their infinite wisdom, just HELP and tell the organics the problems of AI and protect those organics from the synthetics.  Why WIPE them out when they can so god damn easily kill synthetics?  Obviously organic life has to reach the stars and have interstellar travel for a LONG time before a cycle ends, thus it's not illogical.  It makes SO much more sense for the reapers to have more of a hand in the politics of organics then "I'm going to "kill" you so you won't die later instead of helping you live."

2) The mind of the reaper is human, the body is synthetic. 

I could be wrong here but where is the proof of this?  I'm pretty sure merging billions of consciouses into one body and mind wouldn't equal reaper.  The reapers are pretty... single minded, not multi-personality, based on my experience with them.  I just don't see how the mind is "singular" after so many have been processed.

[Candidate 88766]

Caelorummors wrote...
If you'll indulge me, I'll be writing an interesting story for the reapers in a moment. Would not the first repear be made out of necessity of change? Adapting to the environment? Organics taking evolution into their own hands because they had to?

I agree with this.

I personally think a far better motive for the Reapers is simply that they want to survive forever by becoming the absolute pinnacle of life.

They are already immortal and nigh invincible, but they can always be improved. Organic evolution, due to its chaotic nature, can always yield more outcomes. The Reapers, being what they are, can no longer naturally evolve and so instead harvest organics at regular intervals to see if there are any genetic traits worth preserving. Every Cycle strengthens the Reapers, bringing them ever closer to becoming the absolute pinnacle of what they believe life to be.

The Reapers are imposing order on the chaotic nature of evolution by turning life itself into a harvest. 

While you can kind of see where they're coming from, they are unquestionably evil. The current motivation - prevtning a technological singularity - doesn't explain why they are so brutal with their extermination of organic life. If their goal is to preserve organic life, then why go about the Cycle in such a horrific manner. Indoctrination, husks - these are not the actions of beings trying to save us. They are the actions of beings that view us as little more than crops to be harvested.