71 réponses à ce sujet

[Candidate 88766]

BigBossBoo wrote...
I could be wrong here but where is the proof of this?  I'm pretty sure merging billions of consciouses into one body and mind wouldn't equal reaper.  The reapers are pretty... single minded, not multi-personality, based on my experience with them.  I just don't see how the mind is "singular" after so many have been processed.

There's a conversation you can have with Legion in ME2 if you do all his other conversations before the SM (leading to the crew dying) where he will confirm the Geths' suspicion that Reapers are billions of organic minds joined together in a mechanical body. 

I'll see if I can find it on youtube.

[WazTheMagnificent]

BigBossBoo wrote...
I could be wrong here but where is the proof of this?  I'm pretty sure merging billions of consciouses into one body and mind wouldn't equal reaper.  The reapers are pretty... single minded, not multi-personality, based on my experience with them.  I just don't see how the mind is "singular" after so many have been processed.

Absolutely. You couldn't absorb someone's consciousness by eating their brain. That's not how it works. That's not what consciousness is. The reapers melt people down and use their remains as buiilding material. There is no way this could preserve consciousness. That was terminated when the person was melted down.

[Candidate 88766]

WazTheMagnificent wrote...

BigBossBoo wrote...
I could be wrong here but where is the proof of this?  I'm pretty sure merging billions of consciouses into one body and mind wouldn't equal reaper.  The reapers are pretty... single minded, not multi-personality, based on my experience with them.  I just don't see how the mind is "singular" after so many have been processed.

Absolutely. You couldn't absorb someone's consciousness by eating their brain. That's not how it works. That's not what consciousness is. The reapers melt people down and use their remains as buiilding material. There is no way this could preserve consciousness. That was terminated when the person was melted down.

This is the same game that restored Shepard's consciousness despite him being medically braindead. Once the brain is gone, your consciousness no longer exists.

[BigBossBoo]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

WazTheMagnificent wrote...

BigBossBoo wrote...
I could be wrong here but where is the proof of this?  I'm pretty sure merging billions of consciouses into one body and mind wouldn't equal reaper.  The reapers are pretty... single minded, not multi-personality, based on my experience with them.  I just don't see how the mind is "singular" after so many have been processed.

Absolutely. You couldn't absorb someone's consciousness by eating their brain. That's not how it works. That's not what consciousness is. The reapers melt people down and use their remains as buiilding material. There is no way this could preserve consciousness. That was terminated when the person was melted down.

This is the same game that restored Shepard's consciousness despite him being medically braindead. Once the brain is gone, your consciousness no longer exists.

Then again they never fully explained what happened.  For all we know, "Shepard" isn't really Shepard but some advance AI/reaper thing that is very close to Shepard.  But yeah that's a good point otherwise.  I'd like to see that legion dialogue... I didn't run through all his dialogue I guess, since you only get him for 1 mission basically..

[Jareth87]

What the reapers are doing is like a backwards Noah's Ark, they are taking advanced civilizations or "flood" away so the less evolved "animals 2 by 2" can survive. Advanced civilizations have proved to be bad news for the galaxy before, with the previous cycles creating Murderbots, and even in this cycle the Salarians raising the Krogan who were primitive. I saw on here not long ago about the Salarians planning to raise the Yagh to deal with the Krogan. (though i dont know if that was speculation).

The Starchild's logic is not flawed, but it is what organic life would consider anathema because of our survival instinct. We preserve ourselves, the Reapers preserve everything else. It's a stretch but its not totally illogical.

In spite of that Shepard has proven time after time that he/she is a survivor first off, and certainly not a coward, or weak willed enough to take something an AI says at face value. Shepard weighs the consequence that say, destroying the Mass Relays perhaps, would have.

[Averdi]

Caelorummors wrote...

There are two things I will discuss here:

A) Reapers, synthetics of the first variety, are not the same as the second synthetics being stopped from killing organics.
         1) Reapers are liquified organics deconstructed by nanobots, where the consciousness is kept intact.
         2) The mind of the reaper is human, the body is synthetic.
         3) If the geth were to kill us pre-resolved quarian conflict, it would be done with synthetic minded synthetic bodied beings which would eventually see us a threat and/or a parasite destroying the galaxy. There is a nonzero probability that organics will evolve to one day rise up against the synthetics, be it terrorists (Cerberus) or otherwise, and thus the only logical conclusion may be to kill all life.
         4) The reapers, being organic minded synthetics,OMS, does not kill everyone they encounter. The harvesting process is used to uplift a species to immortality, by putting the minds of the masses into one synthetic body.
         5) Reapers, being OMS, see killing us as saving all organic life in the future, and future ascensions to immortality, by destroying the present. They do not stop the SMS from killing US, rather, all organic life. It is not OMSynthetics killing organics so that SMSynthetics do not kill organics, it is OMSynthetics killing and uplifting some or the current organics so that organic life may continue instead of SMSynthetics wiping out all organic life.
        6) Reapers do not kill sentient lifeforms, only Sapient lifeforms. This is due to the uplifting process requiring consciousness.


Given that the Quarian conflict can be resolved, many say the options are illogical. To this end we must consider:
         1) The Quarian/Geth conflict is resolved by uploading the Reaper code.
         2) This code does not exist in the first cycle, the first creation of the reapers, thus synthetics killing organics is still very much a real threat to the reapers.
         3) Without the creation of the reapers, Geth could not be ascended to the point of "life" and trustworthiness.
         4) The reaper code, as it is called, is made from the reapers collective consciousness which is made from the deconstruction of organics by nanobots and their reconstruction into one ship. (becoming the nation).
         5) Thus the concept of Synthetic/Organic peace only comes about when one of the two is fused with the other.


I hope that is breif and coherent. Please discuss!

Sorry, I disagree.  The synthetic/organic position of the catalyst remains nonsensical to me.

A) I can't recall any evidence that reapers retain the consience of the species that create them.  The nascent human reaper certainly didn't seem to have any kinship to Shepard.  The idea that organics are 'immortalized' in reaper form is something that the catalyst and reapers simply state, but neither we nor Shepard has any objective way of evaluating.  Personally, I think that even if reapers did embody the consience of the species (and I think that Soverign had far fewer active programs than a species would be expected to have individuals) their 'ascendence' so twists the nature of the species that to say they are embodied rather than exterminated is a distinction without difference - everything that made the individuals of that species unique is destroyed.

The quarian geth conflict was ultimately resolved due to reaper code.  However, this wasn't because the code made geth trustworthy - it's because it made them individually dangerous.  Without that code, the quarians would have wiped the geth out; its dissemination to all geth is, in part, what allowed Shepard to get the quarians to back off and consider peace.  Throughout the quarian/geth conflict, it was the organics that were aggressive and the synthetics that acted primarily in self defence.  That conflict actually reprsents an inverse of the catalyst's theory.

Also, a salient point is that while we can theorycraft this, from the perspective of Shepard, all he/she is likely to think of is that he's just brokered peace between the most obvious organic/synthetic conflict, and that he has a trustworthy crewmate and friend AI.  I can't accept that he somehow forgets or argues that away in order to accept the catalyst's theory and the three choices based upon it.

I find the argument as strong as ever, and the idea that Shepard would accept it frankly angers me.

[WazTheMagnificent]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

WazTheMagnificent wrote...

BigBossBoo wrote...
I could be wrong here but where is the proof of this?  I'm pretty sure merging billions of consciouses into one body and mind wouldn't equal reaper.  The reapers are pretty... single minded, not multi-personality, based on my experience with them.  I just don't see how the mind is "singular" after so many have been processed.

Absolutely. You couldn't absorb someone's consciousness by eating their brain. That's not how it works. That's not what consciousness is. The reapers melt people down and use their remains as buiilding material. There is no way this could preserve consciousness. That was terminated when the person was melted down.

This is the same game that restored Shepard's consciousness despite him being medically braindead. Once the brain is gone, your consciousness no longer exists.

Very good point.I'm not going to any further with this because we'll end up with the continuity of consciousness problem, which is a real headwrecker.

[Caelorummors]

BigBossBoo wrote...

Given that the Quarian conflict can be resolved, many say the options are illogical. To this end we must consider:
         1) The Quarian/Geth conflict is resolved by uploading the Reaper code.
         2) This code does not exist in the first cycle, the first creation of the reapers, thus synthetics killing organics is still very much a real threat to the reapers.
         3) Without the creation of the reapers, Geth could not be ascended to the point of "life" and trustworthiness.
         4) The reaper code, as it is called, is made from the reapers collective consciousness which is made from the deconstruction of organics by nanobots and their reconstruction into one ship. (becoming the nation).
         5) Thus the concept of Synthetic/Organic peace only comes about when one of the two is fused with the other.

No. The geth have NEVER attacked attacked any organic by themselves.  The only time was when Sovereign led them to attack the organics IE they had the reaper upgrades IE the reaper code.  The code LED them to attack organics.  The geth did NOT EVER attack any organic prior to that code, only defended themselves from extinction.  Just because one defends oneself from extinction doesn't mean they lead to the conclusion "oh we must wipe all life to survive" as is evident that the geth EASILY could have started that process but never did, over centuries.  And that code HAD to have existed in the first cycle or Reapers NEVER could have existed.  The code didn't magically appear when the first reaper was born.

   5) Reapers, being OMS, see killing us as saving all organic life in the future, and future ascensions to immortality, by destroying the present. They do not stop the SMS from killing US, rather, all organic life. It is not OMSynthetics killing organics so that SMSynthetics do not kill organics, it is OMSynthetics killing and uplifting some or the current organics so that organic life may continue instead of SMSynthetics wiping out all organic life. 

1... if their objective is to prevent the end of all life, why don't they, in their infinite wisdom, just HELP and tell the organics the problems of AI and protect those organics from the synthetics.  Why WIPE them out when they can so god damn easily kill synthetics?  Obviously organic life has to reach the stars and have interstellar travel for a LONG time before a cycle ends, thus it's not illogical.  It makes SO much more sense for the reapers to have more of a hand in the politics of organics then "I'm going to "kill" you so you won't die later instead of helping you live."

2) The mind of the reaper is human, the body is synthetic. 

I could be wrong here but where is the proof of this?  I'm pretty sure merging billions of consciouses into one body and mind wouldn't equal reaper.  The reapers are pretty... single minded, not multi-personality, based on my experience with them.  I just don't see how the mind is "singular" after so many have been processed.

I won't be responding to any reactions from your argument that seem to have more malice than contemplation in their construction. Peace is not guaranteed, it is alluded to multiple times throughout the series that peace would not last. The Geth do not need to attack first for the extinction of all life to take place, they simply need to retaliate. The code was created along-side the first reaper creation. It could not exist prior to the creation of the reaper.

Yes, telling us, organics, in this game has gone over very well. We all seem to comprehend what they're doing quite easily. We understand  and therefore talking it out with Organics would not be a waste of time for the infinitely greater minded Reapers. Next time you try to do something complicated, please first stop and explain it to your dog until he understands it, that way you can do it together. We are but dogs to them.

There is proof of the consciousness, and how it gets downloaded to the Reaper in ME2. The reaper is like a geth, with millions of consciousnesses interacting and one voice. Killing is a nonsense word to the Reapers. Where we see
"killing" they see uplifting. They fancy themselves Gods and give us the gift of immortality forcibly. Obviously, with every other reaper out there, they tend to like it after they become these gods, as the reapers are all joined together.

[Caelorummors]

Averdi wrote...

Caelorummors wrote...

There are two things I will discuss here:

A) Reapers, synthetics of the first variety, are not the same as the second synthetics being stopped from killing organics.
         1) Reapers are liquified organics deconstructed by nanobots, where the consciousness is kept intact.
         2) The mind of the reaper is human, the body is synthetic.
         3) If the geth were to kill us pre-resolved quarian conflict, it would be done with synthetic minded synthetic bodied beings which would eventually see us a threat and/or a parasite destroying the galaxy. There is a nonzero probability that organics will evolve to one day rise up against the synthetics, be it terrorists (Cerberus) or otherwise, and thus the only logical conclusion may be to kill all life.
         4) The reapers, being organic minded synthetics,OMS, does not kill everyone they encounter. The harvesting process is used to uplift a species to immortality, by putting the minds of the masses into one synthetic body.
         5) Reapers, being OMS, see killing us as saving all organic life in the future, and future ascensions to immortality, by destroying the present. They do not stop the SMS from killing US, rather, all organic life. It is not OMSynthetics killing organics so that SMSynthetics do not kill organics, it is OMSynthetics killing and uplifting some or the current organics so that organic life may continue instead of SMSynthetics wiping out all organic life.
        6) Reapers do not kill sentient lifeforms, only Sapient lifeforms. This is due to the uplifting process requiring consciousness.


Given that the Quarian conflict can be resolved, many say the options are illogical. To this end we must consider:
         1) The Quarian/Geth conflict is resolved by uploading the Reaper code.
         2) This code does not exist in the first cycle, the first creation of the reapers, thus synthetics killing organics is still very much a real threat to the reapers.
         3) Without the creation of the reapers, Geth could not be ascended to the point of "life" and trustworthiness.
         4) The reaper code, as it is called, is made from the reapers collective consciousness which is made from the deconstruction of organics by nanobots and their reconstruction into one ship. (becoming the nation).
         5) Thus the concept of Synthetic/Organic peace only comes about when one of the two is fused with the other.


I hope that is breif and coherent. Please discuss!

Sorry, I disagree.  The synthetic/organic position of the catalyst remains nonsensical to me.

A) I can't recall any evidence that reapers retain the consience of the species that create them.  The nascent human reaper certainly didn't seem to have any kinship to Shepard.  The idea that organics are 'immortalized' in reaper form is something that the catalyst and reapers simply state, but neither we nor Shepard has any objective way of evaluating.  Personally, I think that even if reapers did embody the consience of the species (and I think that Soverign had far fewer active programs than a species would be expected to have individuals) their 'ascendence' so twists the nature of the species that to say they are embodied rather than exterminated is a distinction without difference - everything that made the individuals of that species unique is destroyed.

The quarian geth conflict was ultimately resolved due to reaper code.  However, this wasn't because the code made geth trustworthy - it's because it made them individually dangerous.  Without that code, the quarians would have wiped the geth out; its dissemination to all geth is, in part, what allowed Shepard to get the quarians to back off and consider peace.  Throughout the quarian/geth conflict, it was the organics that were aggressive and the synthetics that acted primarily in self defence.  That conflict actually reprsents an inverse of the catalyst's theory.

Also, a salient point is that while we can theorycraft this, from the perspective of Shepard, all he/she is likely to think of is that he's just brokered peace between the most obvious organic/synthetic conflict, and that he has a trustworthy crewmate and friend AI.  I can't accept that he somehow forgets or argues that away in order to accept the catalyst's theory and the three choices based upon it.

I find the argument as strong as ever, and the idea that Shepard would accept it frankly angers me.

Everything that makes an individual unique is in consciousness. The game explains how the download of this consciousness occurs and it has happened in other Sci-Fi media. I won't argue how or why, in the same way that I won't argue the hows or whys of biotics. You either accept it or you don't. The game says it happens, you draw the line at your suspension of disbelief.

The Quarians and Geth are on relatively equal footing. With the code the geth can destroy the quarians. While commander shepard shuts down the geth the quarians can destroy the geth. The destruction of all life in the galaxy does not require that the Geth attack first, simply that they get fed up with the attacks and see all life as dangerous to their continued existence.

[Caelorummors]

Legion on the reapers. I felt very validated having watched that just recently, knowing my theory was in accordance with the lore.

[Ja5ck]

Caelorummors wrote...

Ja5ck wrote...]Fair enough, and that's an intereting idea with the Reapers taking evolution into their own hands, even if it would disregard starkid's logic (if you could call it that)

I don't believe it HAS to disregard the Starkid's logic. Assuming the
first reapers created themselves in order to combat synthetics who
downloaded themselves into a massive network (essentially a synthetic
reaper) as Legion mentions in ME2, it would make sense for the blank to
do the same in order to combat them. They happened to win their war, but
only barely. Thus the cycle began.

The issue with this is that the Catylist refers to the Reapers as his "solution" wich gives the impression that they were designed by him for the purpose of blah blah blah... It just seems odd

[Caelorummors]

Ja5ck wrote...

Caelorummors wrote...

Ja5ck wrote...]Fair enough, and that's an intereting idea with the Reapers taking evolution into their own hands, even if it would disregard starkid's logic (if you could call it that)

I don't believe it HAS to disregard the Starkid's logic. Assuming the
first reapers created themselves in order to combat synthetics who
downloaded themselves into a massive network (essentially a synthetic
reaper) as Legion mentions in ME2, it would make sense for the blank to
do the same in order to combat them. They happened to win their war, but
only barely. Thus the cycle began.

The issue with this is that the Catylist refers to the Reapers as his "solution" wich gives the impression that they were designed by him for the purpose of blah blah blah... It just seems odd

Fair enough. IT may be that the first reaper is touching Shepard's mind there. Not sure what that means.

[KingNothing125]

boooolsheet.

Even if I agree with you and Legion that peoples' minds were kept in tact producing a reaper (which I flatly reject), how do those billions of minds all of a sudden think unanimously, with a single consciousness, that reaping is a good thing? Those people on Horizon who got processed into the human reaper... what causes them to say, "hey you know what, that wasn't so bad!"?

Judging by that one lady you weren't quick enough to save on the Collector base, being "preserved" (that terminology I also flatly reject) does not exactly seem like an enjoyable or even painless act. These people got brutally murdered, and all of a sudden they cry out with one voice, "ORGANICS MUST BE REAPED FOR THEIR OWN GOOD!"?

No. Don't think so.

[Caelorummors]

KingNothing125 wrote...

boooolsheet.

Even if I agree with you and Legion that peoples' minds were kept in tact producing a reaper (which I flatly reject), how do those billions of minds all of a sudden think unanimously, with a single consciousness, that reaping is a good thing? Those people on Horizon who got processed into the human reaper... what causes them to say, "hey you know what, that wasn't so bad!"?

Judging by that one lady you weren't quick enough to save on the Collector base, being "preserved" (that terminology I also flatly reject) does not exactly seem like an enjoyable or even painless act. These people got brutally murdered, and all of a sudden they cry out with one voice, "ORGANICS MUST BE REAPED FOR THEIR OWN GOOD!"?

No. Don't think so.

They don't think unanimously, they have pure understanding of one another, as legion described it. Preservation of consciousness overrides your primitive need of flesh and pain.


Or that's how I think a reaper might describe it.

[Ruari]

Caelorummors wrote...

KingNothing125 wrote...

boooolsheet.

Even if I agree with you and Legion that peoples' minds were kept in tact producing a reaper (which I flatly reject), how do those billions of minds all of a sudden think unanimously, with a single consciousness, that reaping is a good thing? Those people on Horizon who got processed into the human reaper... what causes them to say, "hey you know what, that wasn't so bad!"?

Judging by that one lady you weren't quick enough to save on the Collector base, being "preserved" (that terminology I also flatly reject) does not exactly seem like an enjoyable or even painless act. These people got brutally murdered, and all of a sudden they cry out with one voice, "ORGANICS MUST BE REAPED FOR THEIR OWN GOOD!"?

No. Don't think so.

They don't think unanimously, they have pure understanding of one another, as legion described it. Preservation of consciousness overrides your primitive need of flesh and pain.


Or that's how I think a reaper might describe it.

Sorry, are you familiar with the old robot expression "does not compute?" I'm pretty sure if somehow if I was just melted down and "woke up" to find myself as part of a giant murder machine my main thought would be "wtf, I'm so pissed I'm going to make this thing implode." And I'm sure every single one of those people would feel the same way. NO ONE wants to be melted or used like the reapers do. If any part of their leftover minds don't hold this it's brainwashing and they really have just murdered the people to harvest them.

Off track...sorry...after reading this thread you seem a little too...into this reaper thing. Kinda creepy...Timmy?

[Averdi]

Everything that makes an individual unique is in consciousness. The game explains how the download of this consciousness occurs and it has happened in other Sci-Fi media. I won't argue how or why, in the same way that I won't argue the hows or whys of biotics. You either accept it or you don't. The game says it happens, you draw the line at your suspension of disbelief.

Fair enough.  For me, the game explanation stretches its own logic too far and doesn't provide expanation to obvious questions such as how consciousness can be transferred without the morals or motivations of that consciousness.  In almost every other media that I've seen this in, the transfer is literally that.  In ME, the victims become the next cycle's perpatrators, with no real explanation why they drink the cool-aid as soon as they're 'reaperized'.  It's a leap too much, and without some type of logical anchor, turns into space magic.

The Quarians and Geth are on relatively equal footing. With the code the geth can destroy the quarians. While commander shepard shuts down the geth the quarians can destroy the geth. The destruction of all life in the galaxy does not require that the Geth attack first, simply that they get fed up with the attacks and see all life as dangerous to their continued existence.

The quarians had the advantage, and would have wiped out the geth without reaper intervention; that's why the geth went to the reapers.  Thus, the reapers make possible the outcome that they are ostensibly trying to prevent.  Also, while it's true that the axiom of synthetics wiping out organics doesn't necessarily mean that Skynet strikes first, from the perspective of Shepard, his largest and most recent example of such conflict is market by tolerance by synthetics and eventual peace.  The idea that he/she would, after hearing the catalyst's theory, accept the notion enough that he/she doesn't challenge the three options provided also requires a suspesion of believe and character history beyond what I can tolerate.

[Peer of the Empire]

I saw this immediately but still destroy the Reapers

They are not wrong about AIs, however.  On the timescale of eternity, there will be an AI that will rapidly outpace its creators, grow out of control, and decide to wipe out organic life.  In the ME universe anyway

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 16 mars 2012 - 03:09 .

[savionen]

Caelorummors wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

1) The Quarian/Geth conflict is resolved by uploading the Reaper code.
2) This code does not exist in the first cycle, the first creation of the reapers, thus synthetics killing organics is still very much a real threat to the reapers.
3) Without the creation of the reapers, Geth could not be ascended to the point of "life" and trustworthiness.
4) The reaper code, as it is called, is made from the reapers collective consciousness which is made from the deconstruction of organics by nanobots and their reconstruction into one ship. (becoming the nation).
5) Thus the concept of Synthetic/Organic peace only comes about when one of the two is fused with the other.

Wrong. The Geth never wanted to kill organics, the Quarians attacked them. Uploading the Reaper code was simply a way to allow the Geth to recover. If the Quarians hadn't attacked them the Geth wouldn't have fought organics.

For now. All it would take is one crazy Quarian or one terrorist group that thinks organic life is the best life (good thing they don't exist in this galaxy right?)  to attack the Geth for them to retaliate in force. Already there is a 100% chance organic life will attack the geth. It has happened on more than one occassion. It will continue to happen so long as organic life persists. It is pretty simple to see where this is going. This logic is prereaper code btw.

I don't really think the Geth would re-start a war because of a random terrorist group. It seems uncharacteristic. Everything they've done so far is out of self-defense and trying to keep the peace.

[Shunt Mcblunt]

What if the found the Beacon Liara put out and beat the reapers themselves?


PS: Reapers are not Synthetics they are Synthesis so it is:

Synthesis changing Organics so Synthetics wont kill Organics.
Thought process;
It is better you modified to survive than killed with no existence what so ever.

Modifié par Shunt Mcblunt, 16 mars 2012 - 03:16 .

[Cruders]

Caelorummors wrote...

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

This is by far the largest plot hole in the game. The entire point of the Reapers (according to the star-child) is made null and void when you manage a peace between the Geth and Quarians.

Yes, but you have to understand what I said: A) Without the creation of the Reapers and the creation of the starchild, and the countless extinctions to get to this point, there would be no peace between Geth and Quarians as the Quarians would've had the means to wipe them out, or at least they would've been in a stalemate of fighting with no peace in sight.  The starchild is still operating under the data available to it at its construction, which hints at the creation of the Reapers as a defense. 

Ok. so who created the starchild? The starchild is either a VI or an AI. If he had a body he would be a synthetic. synthetic mind with a synthetic body. He decides that he needs to make the reapers. So he massacres a bunch of organics and uploads their consciousness into a giant spaceship and makes them believe (indoctrinate) that culling every 50,000 years is the best way to keep synthetics from killing all organic life. So essecially... synthetics are preventing synthetics from killing organics by using (as you put it) OMS to cull the advanced organics.

And who's to say that the consciousness weren't altered (as we saw that it could have been when they brought back shepard)? The reapers themselves could have been indoctrinated by the synthetic starchild into believing they were doing what was actually good and that preventing each cycle from having possibility of overcomming this obsticle on their own, ie geth/quarian conflict. 

Caelorummors wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

Caelorummors wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

1) The Quarian/Geth conflict is resolved by uploading the Reaper code.
2) This code does not exist in the first cycle, the first creation of the reapers, thus synthetics killing organics is still very much a real threat to the reapers.
3) Without the creation of the reapers, Geth could not be ascended to the point of "life" and trustworthiness.
4) The reaper code, as it is called, is made from the reapers collective consciousness which is made from the deconstruction of organics by nanobots and their reconstruction into one ship. (becoming the nation).
5) Thus the concept of Synthetic/Organic peace only comes about when one of the two is fused with the other.

Wrong. The Geth never wanted to kill organics, the Quarians attacked them. Uploading the Reaper code was simply a way to allow the Geth to recover. If the Quarians hadn't attacked them the Geth wouldn't have fought organics.

For now. All it would take is one crazy Quarian or one terrorist group that thinks organic life is the best life (good thing they don't exist in this galaxy right?)  to attack the Geth for them to retaliate in force. Already there is a 100% chance organic life will attack the geth. It has happened on more than one occassion. It will continue to happen so long as organic life persists. It is pretty simple to see where this is going. This logic is prereaper code btw. 

That's nothing but speculation.

As is your assertion that the Geth would never break the peace themselves. 

There's no evidence contrary. In fact, the only evidence we've been presented supports our assertion.

Caelorummors wrote...

Ja5ck wrote...

Everyone pointed out what I was about to, so i'll just focus on two things; in ME1, the reapers actually caused the Geth to become hostile in the first place, AKA circular logic. And also, in every meaning of the term Reapers are synthetic. They are designed, and they are constructed. They did not evolve (as far as we've been lead to believe), and they aren't birthed. Just because they are constructed using the melted down substances of organics does not mean the are in any way even partly organic. Lets say we created a plane, but instead of using aluminum, we grew the parts with organic tissue. And instead of using fuel, we just had to feed it fodder. It is still synthetic because it was designed, and it was constructed to meet a certain demand or purpose. That is the difference between synthetic and organic.

I see what you're asserting. I disagree, on the grounds that what we are on atomic level is essentially the same material, in differing qualities, as that aluminum. What makes us most alive is our consciousness. If I could put my consciousness into a synthetic body, thereby becoming immortal to some degree, I most definitely would. Consciousness makes sapient life what it is. Still, I understand and think you have a valid point. If you'll indulge me, I'll be writing an interesting story for the reapers in a moment. Would not the first repear be made out of necessity of change? Adapting to the environment? Organics taking evolution into their own hands because they had to?

If your argument that we are all, on an atomic level essentially the same, then the whole starchild's argument is invalid. As javic said "All life provides clues for those who can read them. It is in your cells, your DNA. Experience is a biological marker." If we're all the same on the atomic level then there's no difference between us and synthetics therefore there's no problem with synthetics wiping out organics because it'd be the same as organics wiping out organics. DNA, cells, all of that can be constructed from atoms and subatomic particles.

And the first reaper was made by a synthetic (AI/VI [starchild]).
  (video of conversation with Javic for quote)

Modifié par Cruders, 24 mars 2012 - 09:01 .

[Cruders]

apparently i edited the wrong post... >.<

Modifié par Cruders, 24 mars 2012 - 09:00 .

[SimKoning]

" 1) Reapers are liquified organics deconstructed by nanobots, where the consciousness is kept intact."

This is false. If you read the Codex and play the 2nd game, it's quite clear that they simply kill you and turn you in to sludge. There is no way the mind could survive that.