48 réponses à ce sujet

[Rulycar]

In order to prevent myself being indoctrinated by indoctrinationist, I'm going to indoctrinate myself.
... assuming control.

[viperabyss]

GOODKyle wrote...

 On Deciding the End of the Game
"The illusive man boss fight had been scrapped... but there was still much debate. 'One night walters scribbled down some thought on various ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.'

In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end of 2011. Martin sheen's voice-over session for the illusive man, originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the writers would have more time to finesse the ending.

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because the gameplay  mechanic  proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices)"

So what I'm getting from this is that the gameplay of Shepard being indoctrinated was scrapped. Not the idea or plotpoint of it. So Indoc is still very well on the table: http://social.biowar...5/index/9804665 

Thoughts?

The fact that Final Hours did not indicate anything beyond what is already known to the players shows that Bioware did not implement anything similar to theory of indoctrination. At one point, that option was on the table. However, from Casey Hudson's notes, as well as the flow charts, it is pretty clear Shepard was not indoctrinated.

However, if Bioware were to change the ending, theory of indoctrination would probably be the best way to extend the story.

[tommythetomcat]

GOODKyle wrote...

JamesGray33 wrote...

You guys and others have convinced me. i still think it's messed up to charge for the real ending. They could have at least made the cutscenes more convincing...

The last decision was pretty hard for me, but if the Reapers had never told me that the destroy option would kill the geth and EDI, I would have chose it. I wanted to prove synthetics and organics could live in peace; I guess the reapers successfully used that against me. Wow. Mind *uck

Don't feel bad. Fallout 3 and Prince of Persia charged for "real" endings. It looks like FF13-2 will as well. 

Disturbing trend dectected.

[rorako]

Eh, I honestly think we're grasping at straws. I don't' know, I'd like to keep hop up, but really, why? Bioware's just constantly kicking us while we're down.

[Empiro3]

Maybe there was a page after "lots of speculation", which has "huge reveal DLC" written on it. Still, I'm not holding out much hope at this point.

[azc23]

its all indoctrination is as bad as "it was all a dream" or "you have amnesia" as a plot device.

[tommythetomcat]

azc23 wrote...

its all indoctrination is as bad as "it was all a dream" or "you have amnesia" as a plot device.

Wouldn't have been bad if there was still and hour left of the game after you make your decision whatever it may be either breaking Indoc.  or failing to it and getting epilogue text.  

[Sky Shadowing]

I'm firmly off the Ind. Theory bandwagon now, but as a designer, I will state: if you have a plot twist planned, you will not slip up by putting it in promotional "making of" materials.

[Rockpopple]

GOODKyle wrote...

 On Deciding the End of the Game
"The illusive man boss fight had been scrapped... but there was still much debate. 'One night walters scribbled down some thought on various ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.'

In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end of 2011. Martin sheen's voice-over session for the illusive man, originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the writers would have more time to finesse the ending.

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because the gameplay  mechanic  proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices)"

So what I'm getting from this is that the gameplay of Shepard being indoctrinated was scrapped. Not the idea or plotpoint of it. So Indoc is still very well on the table: http://social.biowar...5/index/9804665 

Thoughts?

Wrong. It shows that having Shepard be Indoctrinated as a scene that's controlled by the player where the player is actively aware the Shepard is being indoctrinated and can respond by choosing dialogue was scrapped. Reading!

Indoc Theory holds that the scene is played out in a way that the player ISN'T aware that Shepard is being Indoctrinated. They could have easily thought of that after realising their previous idea wasn't feasible. 

So no, Indoctrination Theory wasn't disproved. But thanks, there should be more discussion about it.

[Abram730]

azc23 wrote...

its all indoctrination is as bad as "it was all a dream" or "you have amnesia" as a plot device.

indoctrination is central to the plot of the series.

can you explain "
its all indoctrination
".. the indoctrination thread got huge fast.

The 2 I play with are all a dream from when your fall in battle and you do go to the citadel, but you are seeing things.

Both have different implications.

a) you don't get up = it's all very symbolic..  It's about your fate.
blue and green bad

Go to the citadel = you betray everybody or jump in the beam.
blue and red bad

[Piarath]

I can understand and somewhat approve if a developer owns up to their mistakes and changes the endings to better appease their fanbase. That's good business (and most stories/games that have done this throughout history have benefited for it). Saying, "we effed up, here's a better ending for you" and that they CAN do that in this day and age is kind of a nice, warm and fuzzy thing.

On the flip side, they'll probably charge you for it, and that's a sadly necessary evil, as it DOES cost them money to give us what WE want, when it was not originally intended. But the fact that they'll likely never own up to the mistakes AND will charge us anyway leaves a sour taste in my mouth and DOES set precedent for a money grubbing trend I don't like. It's an odd, very thing line.

The Indoctrination theory gives them too much of an out. They're likely going to prey on it and peoples' desperation for a better ending. They spent all that work into a DREAM sequence? And the game ended on THAT note? Hell, I want it to be true because it's SO FREAKING TERRIBLE, but it still riles me. Makes me mad. They're going to have to pull some spectacular stuff to make me accept that I had to spend that last five/ten minutes in a bloody dream.

Though I'd rather say 'nightmare'.

[MaleQuariansFTW]

GOODKyle wrote...

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because the gameplay  mechanic  proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices)"

"fall under full Reaper control".

Bingo, there it is. Indoctrination theory is correct.

[JrSlackin]

ConradsLaces wrote...

So...does this mean we kept our ability to control Shep, but the other aspects are still in there? i.e. Indoctrination theory or near death experience/mental battle?

Damn..reminds me of Lathe of Heaven.

If it is true the ending would be like Bioshock. Yes you're doing all these things, but you think you're doing them out of your own free will, until you find out that you've pretty much been controlled the whole time doing someone elses bidding.

Honestly, it would be a great twist to the game, although one that really got under peoples skin, but hey, who knows.

[Peer of the Empire]

Reign762 wrote...

Atleast knowing your indoctrinated was a better option. Of course I'd be pissed I had no control over it. Unless getting indoctrinated was my own fault through choices I made.

No, I find this way much better.  Indoctrination of the actual player himself

[Abram730]

I like that it isn't obvious

A Potemkin village.. If you will... It makes for a huge plot twist later.

It's
a) it was and indoctrination but was dropped
It's an indoctrination of the player as they play the end.

If b and I do think that is correct.
a) you never get up.. it's in your mind. (All symbolic, your fate)
you did go to the citadel and just did something really, really bad.  All choices suggested by reapers.
(Literal but the choices were all bad)

Modifié par Abram730, 16 mars 2012 - 03:40 .

[Web Access Card]

The indoctrination theory is kind of ingenius, but it's proofs are better proofs of apophenia than anything else. Ockham's razor applies. Let us not forget that The Catalyst character and the attendant (and unfortunate) explication of the motives of the Reapers was foreshadowed by the VI on Thessia. "The Reapers are servants of the pattern... The pattern is inferred, yadda, yadda." That bit of dialogue opens the door for the deus ex machina.

[Abram730]

Web Access Card wrote...

The indoctrination theory is kind of ingenius, but it's proofs are better proofs of apophenia than anything else. Ockham's razor applies. Let us not forget that The Catalyst character and the attendant (and unfortunate) explication of the motives of the Reapers was foreshadowed by the VI on Thessia. "The Reapers are servants of the pattern... The pattern is inferred, yadda, yadda." That bit of dialogue opens the door for the deus ex machina.

That TV show Numb3rs - - > Apophenia and painful for me to watch. (When and where a person dies will tell you the killers address)

The pattern is here and it's confirmed as far as (is / was).. There are also other patterns and that indicates - > indecision or setup.

Presuppose we "were" wrong. How long will that last?
How do people react when you accuse them of being a genius? Do they disagree?

We didn't take such an overdramatic stand foolishly and no such action is 100%.

[LostHero2k9]

JamesGray33 wrote...

You guys and others have convinced me. i still think it's messed up to charge for the real ending. They could have at least made the cutscenes more convincing...

The last decision was pretty hard for me, but if the Reapers had never told me that the destroy option would kill the geth and EDI, I would have chose it. I wanted to prove synthetics and organics could live in peace; I guess the reapers successfully used that against me. Wow. Mind *uck

yeah thats why i was forced to choose Green. and still don't like it .

[Thornquist]

They dont have a plan. If they release a "IT-ending", it will be because fans demanded it.

And the indoctrination that Mac wrote about was the moment when you shot Anderson. They wanted Illusive Man to take control over you. It had nothing to do with making the last 10 minutes, and probably a expensive CGI-clip, part of some trick to lure fans. If they had, they would have released it already.
.

[jspiess]

pavi132 wrote...

I was focused on the part that said 'One night walters scribbled down some thought on various ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.'

It sounds completely ridiculous.

perfect lead in for a drunk history video

[deciett]

azc23 wrote...

its all indoctrination is as bad as "it was all a dream" or "you have amnesia" as a plot device.

Talking about how amnesia is a bad plot device in a game where the story ended to a deus ex machina is redundant.