120 réponses à ce sujet

[Mendelevosa]

 Except I didn't invest 200+ dollars in a franchise just to use my imagination to make sense of the ending of the entire series. If I wanted to use my imagination, I would have imagined an even more satisfying trilogy with a logical conclusion for zero dollars, and use the money to buy a new pellet gun instead.

Modifié par Mendelevosa, 16 mars 2012 - 02:26 .

[mauro2222]

And I can't believe that you used the Bible as an example...

[Ryokun1989]

mauro2222 wrote...

Ryokun1989 wrote...

KorPhaeron wrote...

cachx wrote...

 I agree with the OP. Storytelling should not be crowdsourced or dictated by votes.

No,

Storytelling should have logic, common sense, and closure.

No, all a story needs is comprehension on some level, nothing more. A lot of historically brilliant stories lack logic, defy common sense and have no sense of closure. Look at through the looking glass for example and even the bible. It doesn't make them bad stories, it made them brilliant. 

Brilliant for people of the first and XIX century.

Irrelevant now, specially the bible.

I can say one thing, ignoring the bible's (the most popular book in history) story constructs would have made a game like ME impossible. The same goes for ignoring the greek dramas, the nordic folklore or the roman epics. 

Modifié par Ryokun1989, 16 mars 2012 - 02:30 .

[mauro2222]

Ryokun1989 wrote...

I can say one thing, ignoring the bible's (the most popular book in history) story constructs would have made a game like ME impossible. The same goes for ignoring the greek drama, the nordic folklore or the roman epics. 

And without sun we don't have photosynthesis...

Modifié par mauro2222, 16 mars 2012 - 02:30 .

[kramerfan86]

If the bible wasnt a basis for a religion it wouldnt be a popular book. When was the last time you heard of a non-christian reading the bible because its "such an awesome story"?

[VegaMendoza]

kramerfan86 wrote...

If the bible wasnt a basis for a religion it wouldnt be a popular book. When was the last time you heard of a non-christian reading the bible because its "such an awesome story"?

And I believe a rather valid argument is also that the Bible has been rewritten, reformated and edited at least 17 times (by Catholic standards, much more for evangelian communities) 

[Ryokun1989]

AlexXIV wrote...

Esquin wrote...

You're a fool and if you really are a game designer I hope your consumers don't have to suffer through things as pointless as the mass effect 3 ending.

Dude he is the one who designed it.

No I am not, I am just a fan just like you guys, who has been playing the games the past four years now. 
A fan who wants to voice his opinion just to let bioware know that there are people who do like the ending, a lot.

[Ryokun1989]

VegaMendoza wrote...

kramerfan86 wrote...

If the bible wasnt a basis for a religion it wouldnt be a popular book. When was the last time you heard of a non-christian reading the bible because its "such an awesome story"?

And I believe a rather valid argument is also that the Bible has been rewritten, reformated and edited at least 17 times (by Catholic standards, much more for evangelian communities) 

Still, it is a very old book with many heroic stories that is quite a standard source for epic story contructs like they appear in mass effect. A lot (maybe even all) ideas seen in our games today come from the old heroics, most games are heroics really. They have evolved to addapt to our time, but the stories, they have roots as old as humanity itself.

Modifié par Ryokun1989, 16 mars 2012 - 02:37 .

[KorPhaeron]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KorPhaeron wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KorPhaeron wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Esquin wrote...

You're a fool and if you really are a game designer.

So, if he wasn't a game designer he wouldn't be a fool? have something against game designers do we?

Nope, hes an idiot either way,

While your being childish in how you respond to him. 

Explain

Calling him an idiot because you do not agree with him is childish, simple as that. It is immature.

ah sorry for the confusion, im not calling him an idiot cause i disagree with him, its because i trully belive he's stupid.

[Strange Aeons]

What’s truly baffling about the ending is that each variation manages to disregard the specific lessons of the previous events in its own unique way.

The explanation of the Reapers and the destroy (red) ending in particular might resonate if there were actually some ongoing tension about the latent danger of synthetics…except that everything we saw in the last two games teaches us exactly the opposite.  The games go to great lengths to establish that synthetics are alive and capable of growth and selflessness and friendship and individuality and love just in time for Shepard to murder them all.  It’s like ending Pinocchio with Geppetto stuffing him into a wood chipper.

Then there’s the (blue) option to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of the Reapers.  This scenario requires us to ignore that (at least if you were a paragon) you just spent the entire previous game arguing with the Illusive Man that using the Reapers’ tactics of domination and subjugation against them was morally abhorrent.  Shepard says outright that he will not sacrifice his soul for victory.  In fact, in the scene literally just prior to this we explained to the Illusive Man that attempting to control the Reapers is evil and insane and doomed to failure.  So persuasive was Shepard’s argument that the Illusive Man shot himself in the head to escape the horror of what he had become.  Now let’s just go ahead and try the same thing ourselves.  What could possibly go wrong?

The most horrific outcome of all is the synthesis (green) ending, which would have us accept that Shepard transforms the galaxy’s entire population against their will into man-machine hybrids, akin to the monstrous Reapers and their minions whom we just spent three games fighting.  You know, minions like Saren and the Illusive Man and the entire Prothean race who were turned into man-machine hybrids and thereby became slaves of the Reapers.  He does this based on the assurances of a mysterious entity who admits it is working with the Reapers and who hastily appeared out of nowhere just as Shepard arrived at the weapon that could potentially defeat them.  Sounds legit.

So, after compressing the myriad choices we’ve made throughout the series into a single homogenized “readiness” number, the key mechanic of the series (the dialogue wheel) vanishes at the most important moment and this player-driven epic comes down to three choices: genocide, becoming a monster that violates every ethical principle you’ve lived by, or raping the entire galaxy.

And then you die.

And then the game is deliberately obscure about how your choices impact not only the galaxy but, far more importantly, the characters whom you have come to love and who are the lifeblood of the game.

 The identity of Mass Effect is not in its visual style or its gameplay, which has changed substantially over the course of the series.  It’s not even in its story, because as you’ve said yourself, there is no one story.  The defining element of Mass Effect, without which it is nothing, is its unprecedented interactivity that allows you to shape your own story—and, this being a video game, significantly affect the outcome if you played well enough.

That’s what the last two games did, and it’s precisely what ME3’s ending failed to deliver.

[JeanLuc Awesome]

 Take your two cents back, I don't want it.

[GreenDragon37]

You people just don't get it.

We weren't promised an ending that made us "think for ourselves". We were promised an ending with closure. An ending that took into account all of the decisions you've made in the past 2 games plus ME3. We were promised an ending that would not leave more questions than answers. Hudson specifically said he didn't want this.He said that there will be no decision that simply comes down to choosing A, B, or C. 16 "wildly different" outcomes.

And what do they deliver? The exact thing they promised NOT to give us! BioWare lied to our faces, and turned face value as soon as the game came out! We were betrayed! You need to understand that. All of the people like you, OP, need to understand that.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 16 mars 2012 - 02:45 .

[Ryokun1989]

KorPhaeron wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KorPhaeron wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KorPhaeron wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Esquin wrote...

You're a fool and if you really are a game designer.

So, if he wasn't a game designer he wouldn't be a fool? have something against game designers do we?

Nope, hes an idiot either way,

While your being childish in how you respond to him. 

Explain

Calling him an idiot because you do not agree with him is childish, simple as that. It is immature.

ah sorry for the confusion, im not calling him an idiot cause i disagree with him, its because i trully belive he's stupid.

This argument of you insulting me or not is useless, just end it please. I really don't care, it just clutters this topic.

[Sentr0]

hold the line, dont let them indoctrinate you!

[bucyrus5000]

Ryokun1989 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Esquin wrote...

You're a fool and if you really are a game designer I hope your consumers don't have to suffer through things as pointless as the mass effect 3 ending.

Dude he is the one who designed it.

No I am just a fan just like you guys. 
I am only here to express my opinion on how much this game inspired me as a game designer and I would be proud to come up with such an ending. 
Even though others hate it so much.

Do you really not see what is fundementally wrong with the ending?

There's a "starchild" with total control of the Citadel, who is the boss of your adversaries, who for some reason did not fix what the Protheans did to the keepers, or help Saren, who is dictating your choices. And that is just one of many problems.

[Sentr0]

Hold the line, dont let them (OP and other shady users) indoctrinate you!

Modifié par Sentr0, 16 mars 2012 - 02:42 .

[Shalstev]

 OP, I thought similarly to you when I was first presented with the choice. I thought it was an incredibly difficult decision; I weighed all the consequences in my mind before I committed to a path, thinking my choice would matter greatly. That was, of course, because I hadn't realized the relays would be destroyed in every choice. I was distressed when that happened; I'd obviously chosen wrong and doomed the galaxy as surely as the Reapers would have. The exploding relays would have claimed untold billions of lives in all the major systems.

Also, I found the lack of consequences of my previous actions disturbing. I chose to let the Geth die to save the Quarians (I suspected correctly that the charm/intimidate options would result in complete peace in a situation that should make that incredibly difficult) but now every single Quarian had been reduced to dust when the relays blew. If I'd made peace between the Quarians and Geth, they'd both have been destroyed. Having cured the genophage no longer matters; the krogan force sent to Earth is dust. Tuchanka was likely scoured clean when that system's relay blew. Nothing mattered in the slightest; I didn't even get to see a single consequence of anything I'd done in the end.
Then I watched someone else complete the game. They chose differently. I watched with a sinking feeling in my stomach as the same scene played out in a different color. The galaxy was doomed just as surely.
Perhaps some think the developers were going for a fatalistic message: nothing really matters in the end. I play Mass Effect so my actions have consequences and repercussions. Hell, that's why I play video games. They're an enjoyable diversion, an escape from the doldrum of reality. If I had the slightest interest in being told that I'm screwed no matter what I do, I would not play video games that promise me consequences.

And don't even get me started on the terrible writing. I'm ignoring that and considering only a bit of the screwy lore they've given us.

[ColloquialAnachron]

Ryokun1989 wrote...

I can say one thing, ignoring the bible's (the most popular book in history) story constructs would have made a game like ME impossible. The same goes for ignoring the greek dramas, the nordic folklore or the roman epics. 

  I'm sure you know that all of your examples were only made possible through retelling, reinterpretation, and modification.  Folklore by its very nature is shaped by the people who hear and tell it, Greek tragedy, comedy, trugoidia, were all very much based on the interpretation and retelling of cultural stories, and the Roman epics...well the ones that weren't blatant propaganda (Aeneid), almost all had counter-peices written.  My point here is that none of those are now or mean now what they originally might have.  Indeed in the case of the Aeneid it would be impossible to argue that Augustus did not have at least some influence on the shape the art took.
  
  It's clear we don't agree, and that's fine by me.  What bothers me is this idea of any work being so sacrosanct that to even suggest modification is perceived by some to be foolish, greedy, and naive.  If this is a work of art, and Bioware are the artists, then what with Bioware constantly trumpetting that they want fan input, Bioware has effectively created a client-patron relationship. 

  TL;DR :  Bioware asking for fan input means that we do have a say in their products, whether they are considered art (in which case we are patrons) or products (in which case we are consumers whose opinions have been solicited).

[KorPhaeron]

Ryokun1989 wrote...

What topic, you make no sense, using the bible as reference is foolish, its a book full of contradictions and impossibilities and  you are using the illogical mess from the bible to explain the illogical ending  of a game and you call that a good argument:blink:

[Suparaddy]

Saruman never took over the Shire.
Elves aiding the Rohirrim in the Hornburg
The Dead of Dunharrow taking the fields of Pelennor.

These were not in the books, yet something gave people the right to rewrite them for the sake of entertaining the masses.

[xXIncognitoXx]

Strange Aeons wrote...

What’s truly baffling about the ending is that each variation manages to disregard the specific lessons of the previous events in its own unique way.

The explanation of the Reapers and the destroy (red) ending in particular might resonate if there were actually some ongoing tension about the latent danger of synthetics…except that everything we saw in the last two games teaches us exactly the opposite.  The games go to great lengths to establish that synthetics are alive and capable of growth and selflessness and friendship and individuality and love just in time for Shepard to murder them all.  It’s like ending Pinocchio with Geppetto stuffing him into a wood chipper.

Then there’s the (blue) option to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of the Reapers.  This scenario requires us to ignore that (at least if you were a paragon) you just spent the entire previous game arguing with the Illusive Man that using the Reapers’ tactics of domination and subjugation against them was morally abhorrent.  Shepard says outright that he will not sacrifice his soul for victory.  In fact, in the scene literally just prior to this we explained to the Illusive Man that attempting to control the Reapers is evil and insane and doomed to failure.  So persuasive was Shepard’s argument that the Illusive Man shot himself in the head to escape the horror of what he had become.  Now let’s just go ahead and try the same thing ourselves.  What could possibly go wrong?

The most horrific outcome of all is the synthesis (green) ending, which would have us accept that Shepard transforms the galaxy’s entire population against their will into man-machine hybrids, akin to the monstrous Reapers and their minions whom we just spent three games fighting.  You know, minions like Saren and the Illusive Man and the entire Prothean race who were turned into man-machine hybrids and thereby became slaves of the Reapers.  He does this based on the assurances of a mysterious entity who admits it is working with the Reapers and who hastily appeared out of nowhere just as Shepard arrived at the weapon that could potentially defeat them.  Sounds legit.

So, after compressing the myriad choices we’ve made throughout the series into a single homogenized “readiness” number, the key mechanic of the series (the dialogue wheel) vanishes at the most important moment and this player-driven epic comes down to three choices: genocide, becoming a monster that violates every ethical principle you’ve lived by, or raping the entire galaxy.

And then you die.

And then the game is deliberately obscure about how your choices impact not only the galaxy but, far more importantly, the characters whom you have come to love and who are the lifeblood of the game.

 The identity of Mass Effect is not in its visual style or its gameplay, which has changed substantially over the course of the series.  It’s not even in its story, because as you’ve said yourself, there is no one story.  The defining element of Mass Effect, without which it is nothing, is its unprecedented interactivity that allows you to shape your own story—and, this being a video game, significantly affect the outcome if you played well enough.

That’s what the last two games did, and it’s precisely what ME3’s ending failed to deliver.

This sums up everything so well. Thank you good sir! Oh and space magic!

[aliengmr1]

If the mass relays weren't destroyed and the Normandy crashed on Earth I would accept the ending. At least then, leaving everything up to interpretation makes some sense. BW's grand "speculation" idea was destroyed after those 2 instances. How they managed to come up with that lame idea only to destroy it at the same time is amazing.

Modifié par aliengmr1, 16 mars 2012 - 02:50 .

[WarMachine919]

If I wanted a Greek tragedy I'd read Oedipus Rex.
If I want 2001: A Space Odyssey, I'll watch 2001: A Space Odyssey
Ignoring the logic fallacies, I would be fine with the ending except that it doesn't fit with the established narrative set forth in the previous Mass Effect installments (Nor, for that matter, most of the third game).
OP, If you are a game designer than please, heed my advice. Do not arbitrarily betray the thesis of your narrative for the sake of being "profound". You make like it, but your audience will feel justifiably betrayed.
Conceit may puff a man up, but never prop him up

Modifié par WarMachine919, 16 mars 2012 - 02:53 .

[mcsupersport]

Ryokun1989 wrote...

mcsupersport wrote...

Please don't design games with that take on it, I will hate them forever.

NO, I will not spend the time telling you all the areas the ending fails, that has been done in so many other threads, so just go read them and find out why.

Glad you liked the endings, but can't agree with you, because to me those endings are either a) stupid, or just so incomplete for a series that involved the player like ME did and evolved characters like ME did.

I have read them, and I don't agree with most of them. Some of them are valid, and yes some things are vague to say the least. But there is a stroke of brilliance to it that most commenters fail to see. It mannages to pull of an ending that is confusing yet, when you look carefully, is extremely well planned and thought out. Every little thing that seems missing is done on purpose and adds a layer to it for the player to think about. I think the ending should not be dismissed as "wrong" becouse it just isn't. Nobodies opinion but the writers their opinion will change that.

It could have ended like Star Wars or LotR, but instead the writers chose to do it different. And yeah to the naked eye it looks like Deus-Ex, but with the Mass Effect universe as a context it has an entirely different meaning. Still, if it would have ended different there would have been thousands of other things it would probably look like. No story is truly orriginal, every structure comes from a field of refference from past work that is mixed up with ellements from other stories. You can't come up with things you haven't taken inspiration from in some form or way. 

Deep, no, sorry not in any way.

1)  Indoctrinated?  Well if that is the case or if the beam killed you game over, it was all a dream....Reapers win.
2)  Synthesis??  Pure bs Space magic in a Sci-Fi setting.  No real reason an energy wave should be able to combine at the DNA level Organic and Synthetic, except because they said so.
3)  ReaperGodChild, out of nowhere mechanic that poses a problem and solution you can't argue, heck My Shepard argued most everything and fought for life time and again, do you really think she would have just said OK??
4)  Destroy??  They had to specifically say, "and Kill the GETH!" to make it bad so everyone wouldn't take it, when they forget their own lore that the Geth are software and NOT HARDWARE.  So to kill the Geth you would have to take out all advance hardware that could support them, which would take out every computer system above a basic calculator.
5)  Control about right.
6)  Squad mysteriously aboard Normandy and pulling a Gilligan's Island, just because they said so.....
7)  Indoctrinated Part 2:  Game unfinished either by design or as a cover-up, = really poor game out of the box that some may not be able to fix because they don't have internet to do so.
8)  Relays destroyed= colapse of Galactic life as we know it in ME, and while not everyone will die above Earth, it is unlikely it will be pretty, most aliens other than the Geth and Quarians will die and only the Quarians will survive if their Live Ships survived the battle.
9)  Collapse of all Galatic trade and communications since it will take around 20 years to traverse between species home planets.
10)  Bombed out Earth probably not able to support life above 19th Century life due to damage and lack of trade for replacement tech and equipment.
11)  All of the above but you don't know, because someone thought it would be great to leave you guessing after promising throughtout the pre-release interviews to NOT leave you hanging......gee nice they did that.
12)  If I wanted to guess the ending, I really don't need to play the game, I can just use my imagination to create the entire game anyway.....same thing and cheaper too.

[WarBaby2]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

I don't care about what bioware "wants" us to think they promised closer and failed to give us that and the endings need to be changed and if they don't than i hope EA drops bioware and makes them go the way the other company's they destroyed go as i rather see bioware fall than continue with the way there going.

Sorry, but I have to agree...

I mean, seriously... gaming (actually software) companies have been exploiting their vague market/business standing for 2 decades now. In no other line of business you could make such a s*** load of money with minimal affort ... besides drug dealing maybe... I'm not saying producing games is not hard work, but so is tailoring!

It was never enough... game companies made exlusive deals with GPU and CPU manufactorers for years to push on the processor evolution. There was a time in the mid 2000s, where you practically had to buy a new PC every 3 months to stay up to date, while the actual quality of the games was dwindling with each year,

When this trend finally let up, the DLC nonsense was picking up speed... the market was flooded with useless crap recycled from leftover production material and cobbled together by programmers in their lunchbreack... to make ever more money with already released, and supposedly "complete" games.

All this time, the companies got bigger and bigger and bigger... loosing the connection to their customers more and more, and if said customers finally stand up (which happens not often enough) and say: It's enough, we gave you our money for decades and put up with all this junk because it's our hobby... none of you companies would be where it is today without us... what are the answers we get? "It's our art, you have no right to ask us for anything!... but don't fret we listen to you... have another multiplayer map pack".

Newsflash: Games are no artform anymore... they are a product! The companies themself made it that way!

There are exceptions... Independent projects and dedicated artistic games, like "Journey"... but that's it.

EDIT: Sorry for beeing so melodramatic... I need sleep.^^

Modifié par WarBaby2, 16 mars 2012 - 03:01 .