217 réponses à ce sujet

[Xenolithium]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Anyway, point is, I fail to see the problem with consumers exercising market power.

There is no problem with exercising your consumer role. The only problem we're running into here is fans who like the game as-is and don't want to hear anything negative about it, so they get angry and try to shut us up. 

Funny how that works.

[blooregard]

Taleroth wrote...

I agree with you. Deserve is not a good word.

We want a new ending. It would be good PR if it was free. It might be bad business, however.
Would it be bad PR to charge? That I'm not willing to hazard a guess.

the way I see it (I am in no way a business man) if they release the ending which by all accounts from the people who paid for the game should have been in the game for free instead of saying "lol give us ur money" they'll improve relations with their fans, redeem their image of poor writers and game developers, and would be giving us the ending we waited 6 years for in good faith believing that after we get what we want we'd be more willing to buy bioware products with the thought in mind that even if they make a mistake with future games they have a good chance of correcting it. 

good PR move right off the bat and a good financial move in the long run

were they to release it charged then they'll get their money but they'll lose alot of trust with their fan base

[IrishRents]

bucyrus5000 wrote...

wow, none of you read either of my posts. I think you guys missed my point. Regardless of whether or not we are willing to pay for it or are entitled to it, a new ending would be free, or else it is fraud.

People who buy the game after an Ending DLC will expect a complete game for their purchase. To find out they have to buy the ending will cause a bigger outrage than this current debacle.

It wouldn't be fraud. This is why people call the line holders melodramatic.

[Ronnocloki]

Honestly I care enough about the story of the Mass Effect setting that I would by an ending dlc in a heartbeat. That said I would be cautious about making future purchases from bioware.

[bucyrus5000]

wow, none of you read either of my posts. I think you guys missed my point. Regardless of whether or not we are willing to pay for it or are entitled to it, a new ending would be free, or else it is fraud.

People who buy the game after an Ending DLC will expect a complete game for their purchase. To find out they have to buy the ending will cause a bigger outrage than this current debacle.

Modifié par bucyrus5000, 16 mars 2012 - 02:50 .

[Team Value]

Xenolithium wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Xenolithium wrote...

Team Value wrote...

People really spend their time defending corporations on the internet. This baffles me (unless they're getting paid, of course).

Would you prefer us to find the BioWare headquarters and camp out in front of their gates and 'demand' a new ending? We could even wear N7 Themed Clothing and claim how we're no longer supporting BioWare. While talking about the greatness off the games and even bring our PCs and play Mass Effect together.

Oops, hipsters already beat us to that on Wallstreet.

Where did you get all the straw for that man you're building?

Applejack

How about you not do anything. Some people think the endings were an abomination and need to be fixed. You don't have to agree with it, but Bioware pays PR representatives and lawyers to defend its interests. It seems kind of silly for you to do it for free.

[Benrosan]

AllergevKev wrote...

Benrosan wrote...

The customer is always king, and telling companies it's okay to mislead you and sell you incomplete products sets an incredibly bad precedent. A precedent, which, works against you and the rest of us in the long run.

Free ending DLC. Hold the line.

I've used this analogy before, I'll use it again. (But of a hyperbole but still...)

Actual fraud would be them using the Ad campaigns they used and the game ended up being a Guitar Hero spin-off.
They gave us a complete game with a bad ending.

If Bioware intentionally withheld content from us, then shame on them.
As is, they made an honest mistake for 5 minutes of the game and are being vilified for it while the rest of the game was still great. Not saying I'm proud of all of Bioware's business practices but in this situation I don't mind paying for a continuation. Ever hear of Prince of Persia Epilogue?

That's a fair analogy. But I'm not talking about fraudulent practices in a legal sense. Just misleading advertising.

[HaesoME3]

AllergevKev wrote...

Crappy games get released all the time. People buy them. The publishers make a lot of money. This happens A LOT. Nobody petitions the developers of said games to completely remake the game because it's not worth $50-$60. Now here's Mass Effect 3, a FANTASTIC game that messes up in only one area (albeit in a major way) and somehow we deserve a new ending FOR FREE?

Because you all know that if they charge for some sort of alternate ending it's gonna be paraded as "Publisher Greed" and the whole sha-bang. Everyone's gonna get in a fuss about it, in the mindset that they got some sort of incomplete game and they they deserve it.

Deserve it? We don't DESERVE anything. We payed $60-$90 (with Javik DLC) and got our money's worth out of those purchases. Those experiences were almost uniformly awesome. People saying that 5 minutes at the end of the game somehow invalidates the remainder of the great time they had with the game is ridiculous. And even if it did, the developer still wouldn't owe you anything. In that case, it would just be you making a bad purchase, you can't vilify a company for making money.

The entire  WE ARE ENTITLED TO A NEW ENDING FOR FREE argument comes from the fact that the rest of the game(s) is/are amazing and we want a proper conclusion for such an epic series. That's understandable. But considering the amazing games Bioware has made throughout the years, including the great series at hand, shouldn't this be the type of developer we be rewarding, not one we decry for their small mistakes? I personally have no gripes giving Bioware the chance to redeem the ending...and will gladly fork over another $10 for it in thanks for the great experiences they have given me throughout the years (Maybe not gladly, cash is tight these days, but you understand what I mean!)

Note: I understand many people share my POV on this issue, but I think it's necessary for others to see it as well. I am looking forward for any rebuttals as well. Gotta love a good debate:lol:

I'm not entitled to anything - but if EA/bioware tries to charge me for a proper ending after shoving vent boy and his choose your favorite color down my throat they'll never see another dime from me or any of my friends. I've genuinely liked the majority of bioware's games but after DA 2, ME 3 day one DLC, and possibly paid ending DLC? I won't support their business practices no matter how much I like the games in general. Besides, there's always TPB.

[BobbyTheI]

Okay, might as well just go ahead and ****** everybody off.

Look, I hate the ending, you hate the ending, most of us are here because we hate the ending.

But this idea that because you hated the ending, that somehow you didn't get the product you paid for and deserve to have a new ending given to you for free is the height of absurdity.

Believe it or not, developer quotes are not legally binding, and just because they promise something in the run-up to a release and it doesn't deliver IN YOUR OPINION, doesn't mean you deserve to have it fixed for free. It's attitudes like this that make most of the people outside of the BSN look down on us, even if they agree that the ending sucks.

If they deliver a paid DLC ending, but you feel like you can't spend money on BioWare products after that, go ahead. You're free to do that. But the simple reality of this is that, as has been said before, making a new ending costs money. And the message you're sending when you ask for a free revision is "Spend all this money on me, with no tangible ROI, and maybe I'll consider buying your products in the future." The unspoken part of that afterward is then "Until you do something else I don't like with a future product, in which case I'll do the exact same thing and expect you to fix something else for free."

I support this fight, I support the idea of BioWare fixing this ending. But seriously, people, if this is going to be successful, you need to be able to face the reality of BioWare's situation, and the reality of what actually making a new ending entails.

[IrishRents]

Benrosan wrote...

AllergevKev wrote...

Benrosan wrote...

The customer is always king, and telling companies it's okay to mislead you and sell you incomplete products sets an incredibly bad precedent. A precedent, which, works against you and the rest of us in the long run.

Free ending DLC. Hold the line.

I've used this analogy before, I'll use it again. (But of a hyperbole but still...)

Actual fraud would be them using the Ad campaigns they used and the game ended up being a Guitar Hero spin-off.
They gave us a complete game with a bad ending.

If Bioware intentionally withheld content from us, then shame on them.
As is, they made an honest mistake for 5 minutes of the game and are being vilified for it while the rest of the game was still great. Not saying I'm proud of all of Bioware's business practices but in this situation I don't mind paying for a continuation. Ever hear of Prince of Persia Epilogue?

That's a fair analogy. But I'm not talking about fraudulent practices in a legal sense. Just misleading advertising.

Because every game doesn't have that, right? Like when the early ME2 adverts wanted you to think Shepard was permanently dead?

[bucyrus5000]

IrishRents wrote...

bucyrus5000 wrote...

wow, none of you read either of my posts. I think you guys missed my point. Regardless of whether or not we are willing to pay for it or are entitled to it, a new ending would be free, or else it is fraud.

People who buy the game after an Ending DLC will expect a complete game for their purchase. To find out they have to buy the ending will cause a bigger outrage than this current debacle.

It wouldn't be fraud. This is why people call the line holders melodramatic.

Extortion then.
Seriously, I truely believe there would be intent to procecute BW if they charged for the ending DLC.

I personally would buy it, but the outrage from the community would be legendary.

[AllergevKev]

Benrosan wrote...

AllergevKev wrote...

Benrosan wrote...

The customer is always king, and telling companies it's okay to mislead you and sell you incomplete products sets an incredibly bad precedent. A precedent, which, works against you and the rest of us in the long run.

Free ending DLC. Hold the line.

I've used this analogy before, I'll use it again. (But of a hyperbole but still...)

Actual fraud would be them using the Ad campaigns they used and the game ended up being a Guitar Hero spin-off.
They gave us a complete game with a bad ending.

If Bioware intentionally withheld content from us, then shame on them.
As is, they made an honest mistake for 5 minutes of the game and are being vilified for it while the rest of the game was still great. Not saying I'm proud of all of Bioware's business practices but in this situation I don't mind paying for a continuation. Ever hear of Prince of Persia Epilogue?

That's a fair analogy. But I'm not talking about fraudulent practices in a legal sense. Just misleading advertising.

I can understand what you mean. I just feel that I've already gotten my $60 worth and feel the game is complete, just not completed well haha.
For the misleading advertising, I agree it was misleading, but only in a minor way. We did "Take Back Earth" after all and that was the big thing.

[AdmiralCheez]

AllergevKev wrote...

Yeah, thought the endings were crap and I REALLY HOPE THEY MAKE ALT ENDING DLC. But the remaining ~30 hours well made up for the endings in my opinion so I think asking for it to be free is pretty BS. Ever heard of the Prince of Persia epilogue?
Can't believe people are saying they got a faulty product. If the game was a freaking Guitar Hero spinoff, then I'd say you'd been lied to. This, not so much. Still, it's their opinion.

See, but we WERE lied to.

Developers repeatedly said that we'd get a "definitive" ending, that the endings "branched like crazy," that they wouldn't "pull a Lost," that our decisions mattered.

Look.  This wasn't just one game, this was the conclusion of three whole games.  The final moments should have been the best part because they were the whole damn point of ME3.

We were told that this was it.  That this was the final chapter in Shepard's story, in our story.  This was to be the moment when everything we've worked for would finally come together, where all our time and money and emotional investment would finally pay off.

The ending was the one part where it was most crucial they didn't screw up.

Lol, oops?

[SandTrout]

IrishRents wrote...

If it was listed as coming with potatoes, then you would have a legitimate issue. However, if it was listed as coming with potatoes but you didn't like them, it is up to the company to decide to appease you or not; then to decide to do it for free or not.

Mass Effect was listed as coming with multiple endings that took your decisions into account, and would not resemble a "Lost" ending where the audience is left with more questions than answers.

We ordered potatoes, and got broccoli. Even if you like broccoli, you can't really claim that we got what was promised.

[2484Stryker]

The only concern I have with paying for this DLC is this - that future game publishers will feel that it's OK to rush a game out with a bad yet temporary ending, and then charge customers again for the actual ending that they've always wanted to make.

[Xenolithium]

2484Stryker wrote...

The only concern I have with paying for this DLC is this - that future game publishers will feel that it's OK to rush a game out with a bad yet temporary ending, and then charge customers again for the actual ending that they've always wanted to make.

...Every company does that.


It's called a Sequel, or Fallout 3.

[ket_shee]

I understand the business cycle.

Product is published and consumed, resources spent. Consumers dissatisfied with product, complains ensue. Rectification is published and produced, more resources spent. Consumers end up paying the spent resources.

I also understand (my understanding, rather) that Deserve implies Rights, and Rights are somewhat imaginary in our state of being. I could argue that the SERIES might deserve a better ending, but as a consumer all I can do is demand.

As a polite consumer, all I will do is politely request.

[HaesoME3]

2484Stryker wrote...

The only concern I have with paying for this DLC is this - that future game publishers will feel that it's OK to rush a game out with a bad yet temporary ending, and then charge customers again for the actual ending that they've always wanted to make.

Which is why you cannot support shady business practices or the business that employ them. I would rather Mass Effect 3 end with shepard dying to Harbinger's laser as he flies off to crush the Sword fleet and crucible - than support the atrocity of paying for the ending the game should have had to begin with.

[Narayan23]

I think it's great that a company is for once held accountable to what they are promising in their marketing blurbs maybe next time they will not lie so blatently when they are promoting their game.
I'm not interested in buying DLC for another ending but I will take my money elsewhere

[Kloborgg711]

IrishRents wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

IrishRents wrote...

hallidio wrote...

What happened to the customer is always right?

As soon as someone refuses to pay, they cease to be a customer.

I bought a steak dinner, but it came without the potatoes.
The potatoes will be $20.
What about the customer is always right?
You're not a customer until you buy the potatoes.

If it was listed as coming with potatoes, then you would have a legitimate issue. However, if it was listed as coming with potatoes but you didn't like them, it is up to the company to decide to appease you or not; then to decide to do it for free or not.

To explicitly advertise closure and diversity, and tell people they wouldn't walk away with more questions..

...all the while explicitly designing the game to be "speculative" and mysterious is, in my opinion, incredibly dishonest.
It's not enough for a legal case, but it's enough to offend me and many others.

[Ishiken]

AllergevKev wrote...

Crappy games get released all the time. People buy them. The publishers make a lot of money. This happens A LOT. Nobody petitions the developers of said games to completely remake the game because it's not worth $50-$60. Now here's Mass Effect 3, a FANTASTIC game that messes up in only one area (albeit in a major way) and somehow we deserve a new ending FOR FREE?

Because you all know that if they charge for some sort of alternate ending it's gonna be paraded as "Publisher Greed" and the whole sha-bang. Everyone's gonna get in a fuss about it, in the mindset that they got some sort of incomplete game and they they deserve it.

Deserve it? We don't DESERVE anything. We payed $60-$90 (with Javik DLC) and got our money's worth out of those purchases. Those experiences were almost uniformly awesome. People saying that 5 minutes at the end of the game somehow invalidates the remainder of the great time they had with the game is ridiculous. And even if it did, the developer still wouldn't owe you anything. In that case, it would just be you making a bad purchase, you can't vilify a company for making money.

The entire  WE ARE ENTITLED TO A NEW ENDING FOR FREE argument comes from the fact that the rest of the game(s) is/are amazing and we want a proper conclusion for such an epic series. That's understandable. But considering the amazing games Bioware has made throughout the years, including the great series at hand, shouldn't this be the type of developer we be rewarding, not one we decry for their small mistakes? I personally have no gripes giving Bioware the chance to redeem the ending...and will gladly fork over another $10 for it in thanks for the great experiences they have given me throughout the years (Maybe not gladly, cash is tight these days, but you understand what I mean!)

Note: I understand many people share my POV on this issue, but I think it's necessary for others to see it as well. I am looking forward for any rebuttals as well. Gotta love a good debate:lol:

So basically if you went to a restaurant and they advertise that they have a very clean kitchen. You order a burger from them and it was delicious until the last bite and you notice that there is a roach leg in the bun. Do you think you are entitled to a refund or a new burger? Bioware would not have faced such a backlash if dev team didn't promise us that the endings would be varied and dynamic. and sold to the player as an RPG.

Modifié par Ishiken, 16 mars 2012 - 02:59 .

[Burnsie86]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

AllergevKev wrote...

Yeah, thought the endings were crap and I REALLY HOPE THEY MAKE ALT ENDING DLC. But the remaining ~30 hours well made up for the endings in my opinion so I think asking for it to be free is pretty BS. Ever heard of the Prince of Persia epilogue?
Can't believe people are saying they got a faulty product. If the game was a freaking Guitar Hero spinoff, then I'd say you'd been lied to. This, not so much. Still, it's their opinion.

See, but we WERE lied to.

Developers repeatedly said that we'd get a "definitive" ending, that the endings "branched like crazy," that they wouldn't "pull a Lost," that our decisions mattered.

Look.  This wasn't just one game, this was the conclusion of three whole games.  The final moments should have been the best part because they were the whole damn point of ME3.

We were told that this was it.  That this was the final chapter in Shepard's story, in our story.  This was to be the moment when everything we've worked for would finally come together, where all our time and money and emotional investment would finally pay off.

The ending was the one part where it was most crucial they didn't screw up.

Lol, oops?

Nailed it AdmiralB)

Also on another note. We may not deserve it, but we demand it.

Modifié par Burnsie86, 16 mars 2012 - 03:01 .

[bucyrus5000]

2484Stryker wrote...

The only concern I have with paying for this DLC is this - that future game publishers will feel that it's OK to rush a game out with a bad yet temporary ending, and then charge customers again for the actual ending that they've always wanted to make.

See, he gets it. It is what countless ethics professors and industry watchdogs warned us about.

[IrishRents]

SandTrout wrote...

IrishRents wrote...

If it was listed as coming with potatoes, then you would have a legitimate issue. However, if it was listed as coming with potatoes but you didn't like them, it is up to the company to decide to appease you or not; then to decide to do it for free or not.

Mass Effect was listed as coming with multiple endings that took your decisions into account, and would not resemble a "Lost" ending where the audience is left with more questions than answers.

We ordered potatoes, and got broccoli. Even if you like broccoli, you can't really claim that we got what was promised.

Except we do have multiple endings, and as much as I dislike them, I'm not certain there are not 16 outcomes. When your crew debarks the Normandy, switch out the characters. More than sixteen. Picking apart their marketing isn't a viable tactic with regards to an ending change campaign.

[avmf8]

Here is the thing OP. No I am not going to flame you to ash just putting my spin on this.

I think there already is a better ending. That ending I don't think is the end but rather a ploy. A ploy EA games is pulling to start charging the customer for the end of games.

But they can't upright and do it that would cause massive backlash. Here they made a bad dreme like ending to make people think the game ended badly.

Then they wait for the backlash they were expecting they wanted this. So when people pettition for a ending they wait a while. Then when they are good and ready they release the actual end as paid for DLC then Bioware ends up as the hero.

If allot of people buy the ending DLC EA games will consider that a success and then that will become the norm. Just as it has been with DLC it started small and now they just keep pushing forward more and more.

We are not getting a new ending we are simply getting the ending the cut out so they could sell it. Before anyone says I am wrong all my other predictions about DLC have been right. From the very first DLC I said if people go for this DLC will become common place. Well look at that I was correct. Then they started upping the price of map packs I said there don't buy it DLC will cost more. I was correct there see a pattern how I have been right. Many have known this and I am sure people figured it out long before I did. Many have actually been saying this for years that the DLC problem is just going to get worse.

Well there it is the next step of DLC getting worse.