200 réponses à ce sujet

[Orthodox Infidel]

Let's assume for the sake of the argument I'm about to make that the ending sequence is legitimate (I don't actually believe so). EDIT: When I say "legitimate" I mean that the ending is not a hallucination and that the Starbrat is not lying to you.

Why would anyone choose synthesis after thinking about it for more than 20 seconds?

I wound find synthesis interesting if there were no Reapers in the galaxy, since EDI and the Geth are kinda cool. But the Synthesis ending is the one ending where the Reapers not only continue to exist, but somehow become part of other life in the galaxy. Their stated goal is to commit galactic genocides on a regular basis in service of some vaguely abstract goal of "ending chaos" and protecting organic life by destroying it. The philosophical and empirical justifications behind what the Reapers and "the Catalyst" are doing are an incoherent muddle. Why would you want to make yourself, your species, and every species in the galaxy (including ones we haven't met or aren't sentient) anything like them?

Modifié par Orthodox Infidel, 16 mars 2012 - 03:21 .

[ArcanistLibram]

Synthesis gives the Reapers exactly what they want and Destroy kills the geth, so Control is the best option by process of elimination.

[Tven0]

Good point Legbiter. Could change Shepard for Anderson. I'd trust Anderson over the other two any day. When you put it in terms of trust, it makes the choice a bit more clear cut.

[JrSlackin]

BouncyTEM wrote...

To quote Wargames, since it really has the best answer to this...

"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."

So the Star Child was Joshua all a long.

[TheDarkShape]

JrSlackin wrote...

PKchu wrote...

It's pretty hard to call the obliteration of an truly intelligent AI race paragon.

Synthesis is imposing your will onto others, seems very wrong and anti-consent.

Controlling the Reapers is...I guess...the most paragon. But then you can even argue it's wrong to screw with the Reapers and take their free will since they're really the good guys according to Starkid. :V

Yet again, who says they're dead, who says they're not?

You're listening to the thing that been controlling the Reapers. If it destroyed ALL SYNTHETICS like it should have, Shepard WOULD NOT have lived, just in my opinion.

This is true.  I couldn't bear my Shepard betraying Legion's sacrifice, so I went with 'Control' (and I really like the idea of Shepard dying, in many ways, for the Geth).  But on second playthrough, with EMS around 7,000, FemShep's going to look at the kid, say "bull****" (well, in my head), and blow the Reapers away.  And when Shepard takes that breath, I'm gonna believe everything the kid said was a lie.

That's my happy ending, anyway.

[CronoDragoon]

JrSlackin wrote...

ZacE7 wrote...

Destroy you are actually killing all the geth and EDI,

according to whom?  the starchild?  do you believe everything it says?  It would never lie or exagerrate to try and manipulate Shepard would it

Exactly my thoughts. People are saying Shepard wouldn't listen to the Reaper Child, yet he makes what you came to do the least attractive option.

Yet again, Shepard had A LOT of synthetic done to him due to how horrible of a shape he was from ME2, thanks to Cerberus. Dr. Chakwas even scans you to make sure none of these things are corrupt and mentions that a lot was replaced with synthetics, yet you're still breathing when all is said and done, just think about it...

The Reaper Child is the HEAD HANCHO of the Reapers, look at what the Reapers do to people, they manipulate them, why does he have to be honest with you?

Nothing really, except the developers obviously wanted the star child to tell you exactly what was going to happen, and also because if you do not assume the star child is honest, then it is kind of pointless to debate the merits of the three endings.

Any debate about these endings in a "which one is best" kind of way has to assume honesty.

[MegumiAzusa]

Destroy and Shep lives and can have lots of blue children :3
Control... Shep gets indoctrinated, just look at the eyes.
Synthesis... Shep gives his/her last energy in the hope to save everyone but sacrificing him/herself, this is in direct contrast to the statement s/he gave that s/he won't sacrifice who they are.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 16 mars 2012 - 03:32 .

[shepard1038]

I don't like the synthesis choice you're changing the Galaxy so that the reapers and all synthetics
can live.

[MB957]

In Exile wrote...

The best ending is pressing the power button on your PC/Console when Shepard reaches then console on the Citadel before getting teleported up. Then you can pretend the Crucible fired and the screen faded to black, leaving it up to your imagination what happened.

lol...yup.  If only Marauder Shields were here!

what I get out of it is this...

destroy..I am TOLD...by...who?..I dont even know...since the kid pops into the story out of nowhere..so I assume he is somehow connected to the reapers...so...told...that I kill the reapers..and kill the geth and edi..possible myself.  but not to worry...cuz my kids will start the cycle again anyway.  so what truly is this choice??

control..I am TOLD...that Ive got what it takes to control the reapers...and make them do what I want...but..I surely die.  hmmm...not bad..I would sacrifice one life to save trillions...but how can I trust this guy??  

synthesis..again..I am TOLD..that this is the best end..and the pinnacle of evolution.  I still die...but everyone lives..as a hybrid...and no more cycles.  sounds good..other than over riding all free will in the galaxy..but..they all live...but not as they were before...but still.   again...how can I trust this dude??  where is he getting his info from?  becuz he said so??  who is the adult and which is the child here?

because I said so...is all I hear with these 3 so called choices.

and then..once I get through allll of that...I get to see the relays destroyed.

maybe they just blow a fuse...which..ok..maybe we can fix them..everyone can get home.

in some of the light shows...I saw pieces flying.  not a good sign.  if thats the case..then I killed all life in the galaxy...but hey...the reapers are dead.  or not.  maybe they went back to dark space..but what of it..cuz now there is no more life in the galaxy to worry about harvesting anyway...

so the best ending for me...is to conclude my shep is dreaming...injured...or on drugs...and just turn off my console...and make up my own dang ending

Modifié par MB957, 16 mars 2012 - 03:26 .

[CronoDragoon]

Tven0 wrote...

Good point Legbiter. Could change Shepard for Anderson. I'd trust Anderson over the other two any day. When you put it in terms of trust, it makes the choice a bit more clear cut.

The problem with this is that Destroy reflects Anderson's flaws as well as his strengths: namely I doubt he'd think twice about killing synthetics to save organics. My paragon Shepard simply can't afford to be that racist.

[shepard1038]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Destroy and Shep lives and can have lots of blue children :3
Control... Shep gets indoctrinated, just look at the eyes.
Synthesis... Shep gives his last energy in the hope to save everyone but sacrificing himself, this is in direct contrast to the statement s/he gave that s/he won't sacrifice who they are.

Yeah, at least on the destroy ending you can headcannon that they reunite.

[JrSlackin]

CronoDragoon wrote...

JrSlackin wrote...

ZacE7 wrote...

Destroy you are actually killing all the geth and EDI,

according to whom?  the starchild?  do you believe everything it says?  It would never lie or exagerrate to try and manipulate Shepard would it

Exactly my thoughts. People are saying Shepard wouldn't listen to the Reaper Child, yet he makes what you came to do the least attractive option.

Yet again, Shepard had A LOT of synthetic done to him due to how horrible of a shape he was from ME2, thanks to Cerberus. Dr. Chakwas even scans you to make sure none of these things are corrupt and mentions that a lot was replaced with synthetics, yet you're still breathing when all is said and done, just think about it...

The Reaper Child is the HEAD HANCHO of the Reapers, look at what the Reapers do to people, they manipulate them, why does he have to be honest with you?

Nothing really, except the developers obviously wanted the star child to tell you exactly what was going to happen, and also because if you do not assume the star child is honest, then it is kind of pointless to debate the merits of the three endings.

Any debate about these endings in a "which one is best" kind of way has to assume honesty.

True but when the developers want people to "get thinking" about the endings it doesn't mean that it also wants you think about about the choices.

When I picked destroy for instance. I did feel awful about choosing it because any Synthetic was going to bite it (Geth, EDI, Shepard). When the cinematic is done though and you see N7 armor and the breath being taken, it made me think.

If half of Shepard depended on Synthetics to survive, why is he not dead? (Not saying that he IS alive in the scene, but neither do we know if he's dead). This brought me up on asking if Shepard is not dead, could that mean the Geth and EDI are still alive?

We have to remember that the Reapers are the same people who shoved the whole concept that synthesis was great to Saren, and that was Sarens goal. Also, the controlling part of things was the ILM concept, yet he was obviously indoctrinated similiar to Saren.

I'm not saying anyone is right, since flat out everyone is going off on theories, but I'm not saying anyone is wrong either.

[Reptillius]

Honestly. i like Synthesis best and the most Paragon of the answers.

My reasoning is fairly simple actually. It put's everybody in the galaxy on even footing. Which is the argument of starchild for the Cycle in the first place. Reapers are not entirely organic or synthetic. they lie somewhere in between. But they are still heavily controlled. Indoctrinated in their own way if you will. Throughout the whole course of the three games you do a heck of a lot of work bringing people together and putting them on even footing and getting them to see eye to eye when they otherwise would not. Synthesis gives you the undeniable option to do this for the whole galaxy... Messed up? Perhaps... Consent issues. A Philosophical debate in a half that could cause very heated arguments on both side.

Destroy...Destroy doesn't seem to really solve anything. it does actually state that it would kill edi. It could be argued that the Normandy Crashing when other ships don't necessarily seem to be a fact that it does in fact kill her. It would destroy the Geth if you saved them. Wouldn't matter really if you didn't because you already wiped out the biggest synthetic species anyway. At least one that we know of. It's hard to call it Paragon in the end and even with Deep Breath... Deep Breath that many take as Shepard being alive could just as easily be litterally Shepards final Breaths. Shepard isn't going to live much longer than that either way. He/She is at in a state of approaching death and not outliving the war anyway before picking this ending. Is it perhaps the best or most final ending in some peoples minds because we litterally see Shepard Die in effect? I personally don't care for it. Both from a living and a dieing perspective. Neither have pleasant implications to speak of.

As for Control. Definitely the most Renegade of the Endings in my mind. The implications are bothersome on many levels. Specially with the conversation with TIM before that. Even with picking the Renegade options. Shepard in a way after that point IS the Reapers. It's up to his/her whim and his/her own desires that the Reapers come back for something small or something major. In a single quick ending you go from being the Ultimate Savior and Benefactor of the Galaxy to potentially it's ultimate boogeyman/villian in record time. The whispers that come out of that just from a few paranoid peoples or radical conspiracies whether true or false would probably fill the nightmares of the next cycle at the very least and with what they showed on Thessia this seems like all to real of a possibility to me even under the best of circumstances.

[shepard1038]

JrSlackin wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

JrSlackin wrote...

ZacE7 wrote...

Destroy you are actually killing all the geth and EDI,

according to whom?  the starchild?  do you believe everything it says?  It would never lie or exagerrate to try and manipulate Shepard would it

Exactly my thoughts. People are saying Shepard wouldn't listen to the Reaper Child, yet he makes what you came to do the least attractive option.

Yet again, Shepard had A LOT of synthetic done to him due to how horrible of a shape he was from ME2, thanks to Cerberus. Dr. Chakwas even scans you to make sure none of these things are corrupt and mentions that a lot was replaced with synthetics, yet you're still breathing when all is said and done, just think about it...

The Reaper Child is the HEAD HANCHO of the Reapers, look at what the Reapers do to people, they manipulate them, why does he have to be honest with you?

Nothing really, except the developers obviously wanted the star child to tell you exactly what was going to happen, and also because if you do not assume the star child is honest, then it is kind of pointless to debate the merits of the three endings.

Any debate about these endings in a "which one is best" kind of way has to assume honesty.

True but when the developers want people to "get thinking" about the endings it doesn't mean that it also wants you think about about the choices.

When I picked destroy for instance. I did feel awful about choosing it because any Synthetic was going to bite it (Geth, EDI, Shepard). When the cinematic is done though and you see N7 armor and the breath being taken, it made me think.

If half of Shepard depended on Synthetics to survive, why is he not dead? (Not saying that he IS alive in the scene, but neither do we know if he's dead). This brought me up on asking if Shepard is not dead, could that mean the Geth and EDI are still alive?

We have to remember that the Reapers are the same people who shoved the whole concept that synthesis was great to Saren, and that was Sarens goal. Also, the controlling part of things was the ILM concept, yet he was obviously indoctrinated similiar to Saren.

I'm not saying anyone is right, since flat out everyone is going off on theories, but I'm not saying anyone is wrong either.

Yeah we don't know if the Geth actually die but we can assume when Edi doesn't step out of the Normandy that all
synthetics die.

[MegumiAzusa]

EDI is a VI upgraded with Reaper tech, Geth too are upgraded with Reaper code. Both would die IF it isn't only in Sheps head.

[LilaNoir]

During my first run (my only run actually; I don't think I could force myself to play a second one), I walked toward the beam expecting to have the options (Control, Synthesis, Destroy) to appear (sorry, it was late and I was tired). When Joker walked out with EDI, looking creepy and synthetic, it really didn't sit well with me.

Destroy is the best option, I think. Shepard had one goal and that was to destroy the reapers. And that she did.

Shep will not give in to magical starboy and his LIES.

[Reptillius]

Most of the time it's actually put in terms of Stopping the Reapers. Not destroying the Reapers. Now Destroying them is one form of stopping them but that's not how it's often stated. Just to be fair.

Though I do respect that your shepard in particular might have been all for destroying them from the beginning. The does cause a fundamental difference to your Shepards from mine for example. I'm sorry you feel that it's something you'd have to force yourself to do at this point however considering the rest of the game is great.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Reptillius wrote...

Honestly. i like Synthesis best and the most Paragon of the answers.

My reasoning is fairly simple actually. It put's everybody in the galaxy on even footing. Which is the argument of starchild for the Cycle in the first place. Reapers are not entirely organic or synthetic. they lie somewhere in between. But they are still heavily controlled. Indoctrinated in their own way if you will. Throughout the whole course of the three games you do a heck of a lot of work bringing people together and putting them on even footing and getting them to see eye to eye when they otherwise would not. Synthesis gives you the undeniable option to do this for the whole galaxy... Messed up? Perhaps... Consent issues. A Philosophical debate in a half that could cause very heated arguments on both side.

<SNIP>

YAY a philosophical debate! Let's have it right here and now!

Why would you consider putting the Reapers "on equal footing" with everyone else, or vice versa? You're implying a moral equivalency between them and everyone else in the galaxy. There might be moral equivalency between the Quarians and the Geth or the Krogan and the other Council races, but between the Reapers and everyone else? Sorry, I'm not buying it.

One fun way to analyze Science Fiction plots is to come up with an analogous sitaution in a modern context and then ask yourself what you think about that situation. So, lets pretend that the Reapers are a very powerful human totalitarian regime on Earth invading several weaker nations and committing genocides (pick whatever historical example you wish for this thought experiment). You and your nation bands together with all the others and hope to topple the evil, powerful regime. You eventually are in a position where your victory seems to be assured, so here are the three choices you get to make:

1. Install yourself as the new ruler of this evil powerful regime, keeping as much of it in tact as possible, presumably with the intention that you will be less evil than the last guy, possibly to do some really nice things with all of this newly acquired power.
2. Destroy all of the enemy war materiel, supply lines, communication completely, ensuring they will never be a threat again, but with the unfortunate consequence of many deaths on both sides.
3. Accept your enemy's offer of peace, which is that your nation and all the other ones become one giant mega-nation. Your enemy says they'll stop waging war and killing off your population because we'd be all on the same team, so there's no more reason for them to do that; at least to you. And it was for your own good, anyway.

If you find this analogy valid, do you still claim that #3 is the "most Paragon" choice?

[shepard1038]

Reptillius wrote...

Honestly. i like Synthesis best and the most Paragon of the answers.

My reasoning is fairly simple actually. It put's everybody in the galaxy on even footing. Which is the argument of starchild for the Cycle in the first place. Reapers are not entirely organic or synthetic. they lie somewhere in between. But they are still heavily controlled. Indoctrinated in their own way if you will. Throughout the whole course of the three games you do a heck of a lot of work bringing people together and putting them on even footing and getting them to see eye to eye when they otherwise would not. Synthesis gives you the undeniable option to do this for the whole galaxy... Messed up? Perhaps... Consent issues. A Philosophical debate in a half that could cause very heated arguments on both side.

Destroy...Destroy doesn't seem to really solve anything. it does actually state that it would kill edi. It could be argued that the Normandy Crashing when other ships don't necessarily seem to be a fact that it does in fact kill her. It would destroy the Geth if you saved them. Wouldn't matter really if you didn't because you already wiped out the biggest synthetic species anyway. At least one that we know of. It's hard to call it Paragon in the end and even with Deep Breath... Deep Breath that many take as Shepard being alive could just as easily be litterally Shepards final Breaths. Shepard isn't going to live much longer than that either way. He/She is at in a state of approaching death and not outliving the war anyway before picking this ending. Is it perhaps the best or most final ending in some peoples minds because we litterally see Shepard Die in effect? I personally don't care for it. Both from a living and a dieing perspective. Neither have pleasant implications to speak of.

As for Control. Definitely the most Renegade of the Endings in my mind. The implications are bothersome on many levels. Specially with the conversation with TIM before that. Even with picking the Renegade options. Shepard in a way after that point IS the Reapers. It's up to his/her whim and his/her own desires that the Reapers come back for something small or something major. In a single quick ending you go from being the Ultimate Savior and Benefactor of the Galaxy to potentially it's ultimate boogeyman/villian in record time. The whispers that come out of that just from a few paranoid peoples or radical conspiracies whether true or false would probably fill the nightmares of the next cycle at the very least and with what they showed on Thessia this seems like all to real of a possibility to me even under the best of circumstances.

I don't like the synthesis choice you're changing the Galaxy so that the reapers and all synthetics can live. You're
taking all free will away from them, you forced them to change so that the reapers can't kill them and harvest them.
And the Geth and Edi can be rebuild later in the destroy ending.

Modifié par shepard1038, 16 mars 2012 - 04:33 .

[Chiramu]

In Exile wrote...

The best ending is pressing the power button on your PC/Console when Shepard reaches then console on the Citadel before getting teleported up. Then you can pretend the Crucible fired and the screen faded to black, leaving it up to your imagination what happened.

That is awesome .

[Landline]

The control ending always bugged me.

If I die and I loose everything that I am, then how can I control anything? If there's no "me" in there what's stopping the Reapers from defaulting to extermination and harvesting?

Then the synthesis ending doesn't make any sense. How does making everything look like a circuit board change anything at all? Does that mean that every Loki mech now has organic bits in it? Does that mean that my gun now has free will?

And the destroy ending sucks because you kill the geth and EDI, but it makes the most sense out of all of them.

[Reptillius]

I could argue instead that you could look at Synthesis in the perspective of segregation and the civil rights movement. One group or several groups held down by another that is making all the rules for them and doing to these other groups as they see fit. In the end their goal is not to destroy or subjugate this ruling class in Theory and Philosophy (practice being a differen matter of course). Which means that equal footing is attainable. Having the right to make certain choices freely as a whole and with equal wait and meaning as those that previously held themselves above the other groups.

But that opens up a whole different can of worms and makes the debate even more convoluted. While you see only an Attempt to overthrow a Tyranical Regime... That is more what the Destroy ending Represents.

Subjugation of that Regime is found in the Control Ending. What is done after that can also be it's own debate. Not so much of a could you debate but a would you actually be more benevolent or less benevolent than the Previous Tyrant. An issue that is continually warred over even today.

A level of equality and understanding that makes the treatments and destructions of each other from previous opposing view points and societal opinions being set aside can indeed be very Paragon. Which could be seen as the ultimate Outcome of Synthesis. That everybody is now both organic and synthetic is a point of common ground for life in the Galaxy from this outcome forward that isn't necessarily found in the other endings.

[Landline]

Reptillius wrote...

I could argue instead that you could look at Synthesis in the perspective of segregation and the civil rights movement.

Sure, if the civil rights movement was a bioengineering movement to make everyone white.

[Reptillius]

shepard1038 wrote...

Reptillius wrote...

Honestly. i like Synthesis best and the most Paragon of the answers.

My reasoning is fairly simple actually. It put's everybody in the galaxy on even footing. Which is the argument of starchild for the Cycle in the first place. Reapers are not entirely organic or synthetic. they lie somewhere in between. But they are still heavily controlled. Indoctrinated in their own way if you will. Throughout the whole course of the three games you do a heck of a lot of work bringing people together and putting them on even footing and getting them to see eye to eye when they otherwise would not. Synthesis gives you the undeniable option to do this for the whole galaxy... Messed up? Perhaps... Consent issues. A Philosophical debate in a half that could cause very heated arguments on both side.

Destroy...Destroy doesn't seem to really solve anything. it does actually state that it would kill edi. It could be argued that the Normandy Crashing when other ships don't necessarily seem to be a fact that it does in fact kill her. It would destroy the Geth if you saved them. Wouldn't matter really if you didn't because you already wiped out the biggest synthetic species anyway. At least one that we know of. It's hard to call it Paragon in the end and even with Deep Breath... Deep Breath that many take as Shepard being alive could just as easily be litterally Shepards final Breaths. Shepard isn't going to live much longer than that either way. He/She is at in a state of approaching death and not outliving the war anyway before picking this ending. Is it perhaps the best or most final ending in some peoples minds because we litterally see Shepard Die in effect? I personally don't care for it. Both from a living and a dieing perspective. Neither have pleasant implications to speak of.

As for Control. Definitely the most Renegade of the Endings in my mind. The implications are bothersome on many levels. Specially with the conversation with TIM before that. Even with picking the Renegade options. Shepard in a way after that point IS the Reapers. It's up to his/her whim and his/her own desires that the Reapers come back for something small or something major. In a single quick ending you go from being the Ultimate Savior and Benefactor of the Galaxy to potentially it's ultimate boogeyman/villian in record time. The whispers that come out of that just from a few paranoid peoples or radical conspiracies whether true or false would probably fill the nightmares of the next cycle at the very least and with what they showed on Thessia this seems like all to real of a possibility to me even under the best of circumstances.

I don't like the synthesis choice you're changing the Galaxy so that the reapers and all synthetics can live. You're
taking all free will away from them, you forced them to change so that the reapers can't kill them and harvest them.
And the Geth and Edi can be rebuild later in the destroy ending.

Even if you rebuild them. It's stated many times. specially in the second and third games that The Geth and Edi... No matter how you remade them and how closely you redid it would not really be the Geth and Edi... they would be new life forms that would walk different paths and have different experiences and different reasonings.  The Geth and Edi as we know them are gone forever.

[Reptillius]

Landline wrote...

Reptillius wrote...

I could argue instead that you could look at Synthesis in the perspective of segregation and the civil rights movement.

Sure, if the civil rights movement was a bioengineering movement to make everyone white.

actually the civil rights movement is a social engineering movement that at it's core is meant to make everybody colourblind and lacking gender biases so to speak on a social interaction level.  it is still quite the ongoing process in reality.