1086 réponses à ce sujet

[Soziopath82]

If you boil it down to the simple facts, you can either…

...destroy the reapers, commit genocide (Geth) and kill a friend (EDI), leaving the rest of the galaxy in disarray and provoke galactic Holocaust

...control the reapers, leave the galaxy in disarray and provoke galactic Holocaust

…bring about synthesis, which makes everyone in the galaxy exactly the same, putting an end to any form of biological life and effectively destroy diversity, which results in a galaxy in disarray, provoking galactic Holocaust

The whole organics-versus-synthetics dilemma can be seen as a form of racism in itself, along the lines of "They're different, so we'll never get along!".

I wonder if this really is the message that should be transported by a video game, especially if you are able to disprove it many times over the course of three games.

No, for me, the game's gist was always about how you were able to get the most different people and races to get along peacefully and that friendship was possible even in the most troubling circumstances.

Forcing Shepard unto three choices that can be seen in such a terrible light as we do now is not an achievement. It's just wrong.

[NightHawkIL]

I don't know how this thread isn't one of the top discussed here. Do people just not buy it? This is the most convincing reason I've heard as to why the ending must be changed, going beyond the fact that it would just make the fans happy. BioWare needs to see this so they can understand this very fatal flaw that is a primary backdrop to almost all of the other reasons why the ending is so widely despised.

[Rheinlandman]

The Destroy option would also kill the Quarians; with their populace so dependent on synthetics and technology the destroy option would make their demise almost certain. Their suits are VI operated, and if you aligned Geth and Quarian their suits will be Geth run. Representing a symbiotic relationship, or if we continue along with the racist argument, they would represent a multiracial individual.

OPs argument is well thought out and not at all without merit.

[Siven80]

 Meant to be serious? 

[Raiil]

Siven80 wrote...

 Meant to be serious? 

Yes, and quite a few of us agree, tbh. The whole thing is really just gross and BioWare should have thought a little harder about it.

[redplague]

I was under the impression that the Catalyst was a creation of an ancient species.

[NightHawkIL]

Siven80 wrote...

 Meant to be serious? 

Yes. While I don't think it was intentional, it's hard to refute. The end provides only 3 options, each with racist implications. There is no way to come through the other side of the three choices without compromising your integrity. Read the OP and the few pages prior to this one you will see quite a few things that prove the point.

[Legendaryred]

I hadn't really thought about it that way, but i guess it's just that it's been there in ME the whole time and it's normal to "hate synthetics because they're AI". So yea, pretty racist to hate somebody for what they are, even though I'm not sure you could call the Geth "people yet". As for the reapers, pretty racist too, killing us for what we "might" do.

[Mr. Brainheart]

A few thoughts that came to mind:

-There is no reason to assume that the catalyst is telling the truth, and from what we learn throughout the game, it indeed seems like he might be wrong about what the fate of organics will be, once they create synthetics. Shepard however can take his moral stand by destroying the reapers and thereby giving synthetics a chance once life crawls back out of the dark age. Shepard isn't the pawn, even if the starchild makes it seem that way, it is in fact the starchild himself who is the pawn.

As hypothesis: The child might've seen the near extinction, if not complete extinction of his species by synthetics, an imperfect reason to cleance the galaxy, but also one that we can understand (even if we morally reject it), it's self preservation. In this hypothetical scenario, he acts out of fear. What I'm trying to get at, is that while you might find the actions and ideas of the catalyst racist and offensive, I can't see how this makes the ending itself the same.

Shepard can choose to end the cycle and if he doesn't the cycle will continue and so will the genocide, every 50000 years, allowing neither organics, nor synthetics to rise above. This genocide is unavoidable, but in one scenario it offers hope for it to stop and in the other it will simply continue.
How could it have ended differently?

I can't really think of anything.

[NightHawkIL]

Mr. Brainheart wrote...

A few thoughts that came to mind:

-There is no reason to assume that the catalyst is telling the truth, and from what we learn throughout the game, it indeed seems like he might be wrong about what the fate of organics will be, once they create synthetics. Shepard however can take his moral stand by destroying the reapers and thereby giving synthetics a chance once life crawls back out of the dark age. Shepard isn't the pawn, even if the starchild makes it seem that way, it is in fact the starchild himself who is the pawn.

As hypothesis: The child might've seen the near extinction, if not complete extinction of his species by synthetics, an imperfect reason to cleance the galaxy, but also one that we can understand (even if we morally reject it), it's self preservation. In this hypothetical scenario, he acts out of fear. What I'm trying to get at, is that while you might find the actions and ideas of the catalyst racist and offensive, I can't see how this makes the ending itself the same.

Shepard can choose to end the cycle and if he doesn't the cycle will continue and so will the genocide, every 50000 years, allowing neither organics, nor synthetics to rise above. This genocide is unavoidable, but in one scenario it offers hope for it to stop and in the other it will simply continue.
How could it have ended differently?

I can't really think of anything.

Shepherd could have put up a fight rather than compromising his integrity, that's how it could have ended differently. How is killing the Geth becasue eventually they could be rebuilt any different from killing humanity becasue you could make more later in test tubes, or by sparing a male and a female? It is still genocide, and a completely unacceptable cost on moral grounds. It is valuing one race as lesser than others, and is the very defination of racism.

It is the very excuse that the reapers themselves use to justify slaughtering the galaxy. They do so because they reason that their wiping out of all advanced civilazations is an acceptable cost to allow some life to continue on and be the better for it. It is the same excuse every mass murderer throughout history has ever used - we will kill this group of people because it is in the best interest of the greater community.

Modifié par NightHawkIL, 16 mars 2012 - 07:01 .

[Mr. Brainheart]

@NightHawkIL; What was his alternative to using the crucible then? Fighting conventionally and being whiped out? Only to have the next cycles to likely end the same way? Isn't that actually worse, you had the chance to end something morally wrong, but you give it the chance to be repeated for sure. In my eyes, neither are morally right, one outcome offers hope for both synthetics and organics, the other for neither.

And the choice of either sacrifising humanity or the Geth isn't there, if you choose the destroy option, you sacrifice the Geth, I didn't mean to imply that was different from sacrificing any other species.

[NightHawkIL]

Mr. Brainheart wrote...
@NightHawkIL; What was his alternative to using the crucible then? Fighting conventionally and being whiped out? Only to have the next cycles to likely end the same way? Isn't that actually worse, you had the chance to end something morally wrong, but you give it the chance to be repeated for sure.

  
Yes, roll the dice or die trying. Don't become a murderer just because it looks like the only reasonable thing to do. If we have learned one thing from hundreds of years of literature, it is that it is never worth defeating the enemy if you become like him.

Mr. Brainheart wrote... 
In my eyes, neither are morally right, one outcome offers hope for both synthetics and organics, the other for neither.

And the choice of either sacrifising humanity or the Geth isn't there, if you choose the destroy option, you sacrifice the Geth, I didn't mean to imply that was different from sacrificing any other species.

You just summed up everything that I've been saying in past posts. The very 'best' option we are given forces us to comit genocide in order for anyone to have hope later on. It is not the player's fault that this is the only option the game allows, it is the game itself that only allows us these endings. If the only permitted endings require a compromise of integrety in regards to racism and genocide, then the ending is indeed defined by those ideals. Therefore, racist ending.

The only way to choose not give in to those ideals is to turn off the console rather than have the game force you into them.

[Mar3ekl]

I must say I think you see too much in the endings. No one is arguing the endings are not what people expected. I was really disappointed at first too.

But I would NEVER EVER go as far as calling Bioware writers or games as "promoting genocide".

Your argumentation might seem logical, but don't forget you are making assumptions from incomplete data here - Shepard's story is not over just yet. Bioware is fully aware that these endings provide no closure to the ME universe. I am pretty sure we will get answers to out questions.

Yes, the Starchild's reasoning is totally wrong, whatever his past experiences. Many of us proved that by reuniting the Quarians and the Geth. But from the in-story point of view - the Starchild has absolutely no need to explain its actions to us. He commands the Reapers, he holds all the cards.

I agree, it's not right. It's not what any of us expected. But - I think we should all just take a deep breath, count to ten and take a step back. Bioware has never failed us (or me, at least), let's just hope they have something good up their sleeve. And we should definitely not take our frustration as far as to accuse Bioware of promoting genocide. For me, that's just a step too far across the line.

[NightHawkIL]

Mar3ekl wrote...
Your argumentation might seem logical, but don't forget you are making assumptions from incomplete data here - Shepard's story is not over just yet. Bioware is fully aware that these endings provide no closure to the ME universe. I am pretty sure we will get answers to out questions.

That's possible, I'll cede to that. Also, just to clarify, I do not think BioWare intentionally created propaganda for genocide or racism. I believe it was an honest mistake, not noticed at first, but clear as day now that it's fallen under more scrutiny. I do not wish for accusations to be brought against BioWare, I simply want them to be aware of the issues so that they can be corrected. To further that cause, I have allerted them to this thread through their Twitter account in a way that made clear that there was no accusation, just issues to fix. They were understanding and said it would be forwarded to the dev's, which is all I was concerned about.

If they do make a new ending, I don't still want to be forced into morally bankrupt decisions.

[KelaSaar]

Mar3ekl wrote...

I must say I think you see too much in the endings. No one is arguing the endings are not what people expected. I was really disappointed at first too.

But I would NEVER EVER go as far as calling Bioware writers or games as "promoting genocide".

Your argumentation might seem logical, but don't forget you are making assumptions from incomplete data here - Shepard's story is not over just yet. Bioware is fully aware that these endings provide no closure to the ME universe. I am pretty sure we will get answers to out questions.

Yes, the Starchild's reasoning is totally wrong, whatever his past experiences. Many of us proved that by reuniting the Quarians and the Geth. But from the in-story point of view - the Starchild has absolutely no need to explain its actions to us. He commands the Reapers, he holds all the cards.

I agree, it's not right. It's not what any of us expected. But - I think we should all just take a deep breath, count to ten and take a step back. Bioware has never failed us (or me, at least), let's just hope they have something good up their sleeve. And we should definitely not take our frustration as far as to accuse Bioware of promoting genocide. For me, that's just a step too far across the line.

I don't think anyone is saying that Bioware is promoting genocide, I think the real point is that the endings have some serious unfortunate implications/Fridge Horror when you think about them, and Bioware either didn't put as much thought into them as fans have, or (in the land of wishful thinking) it's something that they'll address in an ending DLC.

[Arppis]

There was no black ending!

[Slash1667]

Mr. Brainheart wrote...

@NightHawkIL; What was his alternative to using the crucible then? Fighting conventionally and being whiped out? Only to have the next cycles to likely end the same way? Isn't that actually worse, you had the chance to end something morally wrong, but you give it the chance to be repeated for sure. In my eyes, neither are morally right, one outcome offers hope for both synthetics and organics, the other for neither.

And the choice of either sacrifising humanity or the Geth isn't there, if you choose the destroy option, you sacrifice the Geth, I didn't mean to imply that was different from sacrificing any other species.

That's just the point. There is no alternitive. No matter which of the 3 choices you make you are appeaseing a genocidal maniac. Using the interetation of the OP there is no ethical or moral choice. Man, or machine, is not meant to play god yet that is exactly what the Star Brat is making you do. Enforce your will on the entire galaxy, wipe out an entire new evolved species or become what you most despise. None of these are choices Shepard, and I hope none of the players or devs, would make.

[aimlessgun]

 Bravo OP

*slow clap*



I don't know if 'racist' is the right word, but the points are well made. 

[Emperor Iaius I]

Uh, yeah, the reapers are genocidal maniacs. We knew that in ME1. It took until the ending for you to get that?

[rwilli80]

Stygian1 wrote...

To be honest... it was a lil' racist.


(or whatever being prejudice against robots would be called)

Robotist

[Mr. Brainheart]

@NightHawkIL; But you don't become like him, the enemy repeats a cycle of destruction to never let synthetics destroy organics, you want to give life a chance to truly develop beyond what the reapers call "the apex of your glory" and see how it plays out. A cycle of destruction is incomparable to destruction to break a cycle. One ensures life without choice, the other freedom, if such a thing exists.

Shepard isn't a racist because of his actions and thoughts in this scenario. say you pick the destroy ending, my Shepard happened to sacrifice the Geth, but he would've still done it if he had to sacrifice the humans, or the Asari, etc. The only one who's racist is the starchild. The ending of the series gives hope of change infact. If the Reapers would be allowed to continue, synthetics would continued to be judged on prejudice.

By a sacrifice one way or the other, Shepard clears the path for a future that possibly ends this prejudice. And Shepard did not commit genocide on all spacefaring species, his actions aren't that easily comparable to the Reapers.

[Rafe34]

Zine2 wrote...
*snip*

Standing ovation, sir.

This is it, exactly. We are forced to submit to the Catalyst's options, and he is responsible for the mass genocide of the entire galaxy on the premise that one race can never get along with the others.

[Ludica]

Finally someone other than me is brave enough to make a thread about it with all it's honestly.

If we ever meet, OP, remind me that i owe you a drink.

[Ryokun1989]

Sure... God this rant gets more whack every second.

[Bio Addict]

Years from now I'll be able to tell my grandchildren that I was there when the BSN brought nerd rage to new depths of unfathomable terror.