1086 réponses à ce sujet

[dragemuyt]

Yeah... whatever you say.

[Phaedros]

hmm.. can you call synthetics a race? Thought that needed genes..

Offensive I agree 100%

[The Smitchens]

Tell us how you really feel.

[Peer of the Empire]

Soziopath82 wrote...

If you boil it down to the simple facts, you can either…

...destroy the reapers, commit genocide (Geth) and kill a friend (EDI), leaving the rest of the galaxy in disarray and provoke galactic Holocaust

...control the reapers, leave the galaxy in disarray and provoke galactic Holocaust

…bring about synthesis, which makes everyone in the galaxy exactly the same, putting an end to any form of biological life and effectively destroy diversity, which results in a galaxy in disarray, provoking galactic Holocaust

The whole organics-versus-synthetics dilemma can be seen as a form of racism in itself, along the lines of "They're different, so we'll never get along!".

I wonder if this really is the message that should be transported by a video game, especially if you are able to disprove it many times over the course of three games.

No, for me, the game's gist was always about how you were able to get the most different people and races to get along peacefully and that friendship was possible even in the most troubling circumstances.

Forcing Shepard unto three choices that can be seen in such a terrible light as we do now is not an achievement. It's just wrong.

This game is not about the Holocaust.  Nothing has been disproved, it's a video game, not real life.  If you wish to be morally pure, then you must make peace with the Reapers, for you are being racist against them, making assumptions about them and feeling uncomfortable around them just because they are different.

[loungeshep]

...Well this is a new take on hating the endings.

[NightHawkIL]

Peer of the Empire wrote...
If you wish to be morally pure, then you must make peace with the Reapers, for you are being racist against them, making assumptions about them and feeling uncomfortable around them just because they are different.

That's not at all true. The reapers are mass murderers. We feel 'uncomfortable' around them because they are mass murderers, not becasue they are 'different'. Nobody wants to kill the elcor, and they're plenty different.

[mjh417]

Zine2 wrote...

To top it all off, the player is not allowed to question its actions. It must stand idly by and accept its justifications. You are not allowed to tell it that is wrong. Mac Walters and Casey Hudson actually thought this was a good thing too, as noted here in the "Final Hours":

Mac Walters on the Star Child/Reapers
"Originally, with the catalyst, the star child at the end of the game, I had written that much more in the guise of a investigative style conversation, where there is something he tells you but then, you get to ask a bunch of questions and you get your questions answered. But then me and Casey talked and decided, lets keep the conversation "High level". Give you the details that you need to know, but don't get into the stuff that you don't need to know. Like "How long have they been reaping?" You don't need to know the answers to the mass effect universe. So we intentionally left those out"

But given that they were planning to allow the player to ask only softball questions ("How long have you been reaping?", as opposed to "Why did you not seek a different solution that did NOT involve mass murder?"), they were apparently so in love with their "Genocide is justifiable!" ending that they didn't think it was a big deal.

WAIT WHAT???? Where is that quote from???

EDIT:  I found the thread

Modifié par mjh417, 16 mars 2012 - 08:57 .

[durasteel]

If there was much thought that went into the endings, then you might be right. I think at this point is is pretty clear that the incredibly stupid and nonsensical ending of the game, however, was simply thrown together because they couldn't think of anything better before their deadline. If they had taken the time to finish the ending, I am confident that it would have come out very, very different. This is a case of BioWare going with what they had - which was rough - because they didn't have time to make a real ending.

I don't know about you guys, but I would gladly have waited another month for a game that was actually finished with an ending of the same high quality as the rest of the game.

Modifié par durasteel, 16 mars 2012 - 08:58 .

[Twinkee]

OP, I respect the post, but ... there is absolutely no implied racist intent or parallel in the ending. Sometimes, when a writer mentions blue curtains in the scenery, the purpose is to convey some sort of emotion or establish a link to some other pertinent subject in the story.

Other times, the curtains are just freakin' blue.

[darknessmyown]

I wanted to take some time to read through the many responses that this topic has brought up and it was not simple. I am going to say now that you have certainly given me another perspective on the whole of the situation, and even if this was not what they intended in what they put as our (very sad) ending to deal with, it can certainly be debated.

I applaud your critical thinking and clarity of points. Maybe I would not draw all of the same conclusions, but I can certainly at least see your meaning in much of it. And durasteel, I would have waited two or even three months if it meant I was not going to be subjected to the depression and confusion I felt over how Mass Effect 3's ending seems to turn on the theme of both games that came before it and even the rest of the game itself.

[MaximusRex]

DrNick1221 wrote...

Why do people say all tech was wiped out? Wasnt it just sythetic life?

The star child indicates that implants in oganics also count as synthetic life.  If it sees it at such a high level, how would it know the difference between a chip inside a person and a chip inside a computer?

I wonder if somone has Kaiden as a LI and picks destroy, if they see him walk off the Normandy at the end.  They shouldn't, because he has implants and it should kill him too.

[MB957]

I too found that 3 choices to commit genocide was offensive.

for me...even synthesis is a form of genocide...I over ride all free will and play creator magic??

destroy..obvious to me..since the geth...who..as we have mentioned once or twice before..disproved shiny boys argument.

control....didnt appear to have any obvious genocide ramifications. I dont recall exactly. maybe it did.

but for me...its the explosions of the relays. if...following arrivals demonstration...then any choice...which destroys the relays...kills all life in any system that has a relay.

so for my shep to not even have the option of refuting shiny boys solution...and being forced into a choice...its still not the "lesser of the evils" since all life in the galaxy is vaporized.

talk about offensive genocide.

just speculating

[DonJuan2000]

The Space Harry Potter that play with universe, is just a child story, not much realated to ME narrative background... no way.

[Myrmedus]

Errr....*scratches head*.

[LolaLei]

I guess you could say the synthesis ending is like Hitler trying to create the "perfect" race. Weird that we never picked up on this sooner.

[Lazarus Cricket]

Peer of the Empire wrote...

Soziopath82 wrote...

If you boil it down to the simple facts, you can either…

...destroy the reapers, commit genocide (Geth) and kill a friend (EDI), leaving the rest of the galaxy in disarray and provoke galactic Holocaust

...control the reapers, leave the galaxy in disarray and provoke galactic Holocaust

…bring about synthesis, which makes everyone in the galaxy exactly the same, putting an end to any form of biological life and effectively destroy diversity, which results in a galaxy in disarray, provoking galactic Holocaust

The whole organics-versus-synthetics dilemma can be seen as a form of racism in itself, along the lines of "They're different, so we'll never get along!".

I wonder if this really is the message that should be transported by a video game, especially if you are able to disprove it many times over the course of three games.

No, for me, the game's gist was always about how you were able to get the most different people and races to get along peacefully and that friendship was possible even in the most troubling circumstances.

Forcing Shepard unto three choices that can be seen in such a terrible light as we do now is not an achievement. It's just wrong.

This game is not about the Holocaust.  Nothing has been disproved, it's a video game, not real life.  If you wish to be morally pure, then you must make peace with the Reapers, for you are being racist against them, making assumptions about them and feeling uncomfortable around them just because they are different.

we judge the reapers for their actions, they are unrepentant genocidal killers. It's not because they are different. The geth are different but we can make peace with them. They judge us as organics and synthetics, as chaos, not by our actions but by the actions of others. We can't trust them as impartial historians anyway, there is no reason to do what they say.

It is immoral and accepting of authoritarianism to bow your head before a being whose actions are objectively evil as they commit undue harm and annihilate others for crimes that have not been commited.

Hey, why don't the police arrest people before they commit crimes? What if we have statistics that show people of lower income levels or who have dropped out of highschool are more prone to commit crimes, the reapers would suggest that we arrest them all and put them on death row to stop them from commiting crimes and to prevent their genetic legacy from commiting crimes.
 
That idea is evil and nonsense. A game that forces your protaganist, whose supposed to act based on your input, to comply with evil for the sake of some edgy "artistic" view is wrong, and we as a society hold no value in that. Evil for evil's sake and being grim for the sake of being grim is not what I would call art, which is the real travesty because the rest of this series I would consider to be art.

Modifié par Lazarus Cricket, 16 mars 2012 - 09:21 .

[CronoDragoon]

I agree, although I word it differently. It amounts to the same thing. The endings were fundamentally anti-diversity. They posit that the best way to deal with people different than you is to 1. Kill them. or 2. Wipe out their differences. At its most base philosophy, the"synthetic vs. organic is inevitable" philosophical stance is pretty intolerable.

[wetnasty]

[NightHawkIL]

I actually am quite impressed by everyone's ability so far to keep a level head in the discussion and debate. That's not typical for this sort of subject matter.

[Ludica]

 Oh and just to clarify for people trying to use "why are we willing to kill all Reapers then"
Simply.

Reapers are half-synthetic half-organic. But that doesn't mean everything half-synthetic half-organic is a Reaper.

Reapers are not a race. They are a nation.

An enemy nation is fought until it acknowledges it's defeat. It's a war. (a war in my game about a war? Noooo...)

And Reapers won't. 

[Piarath]

Just as valid a point of view of the endings as anything else that's been concocted up.

This is the result of not giving closure and leaving it open to "interpretation"; this is what you get when you want to 'imagine your own ending'. Congrats!

Why did they ever need to make the Reapers anything less than what they already were? They were unthinkable, unimaginable horrors from Dark Space. They were lovecraftian terrors in the guise of machines. The perfect enemy, and beautifully ported into a Sci-Fi setting at that. I got tingles of horror thinking about it, and remembering Sovereign's words... "Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance. Incapable of understanding."

Compare that to what the Reapers are told to be at the end of 3 by the Catalyst. They took a beautiful concept and DUMBED IT DOWN in the worse possible way. Then try to convince you they're just misguided good guys who really had your best interests at heart (because that tired old fop hasn't been done before a billion times). Each a nation, and we cannot even grasp the nature of your existence? Poor Sovereign. I think no one told them we were supposed to be his friend.

I think that's the one thing that angers me most about the endings, and the fact that it boils down to this is what makes the OP sound plausible and reasonable; and that, frankly, is a terrifying concept.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

NightHawkIL wrote...

Peer of the Empire wrote...
If you wish to be morally pure, then you must make peace with the Reapers, for you are being racist against them, making assumptions about them and feeling uncomfortable around them just because they are different.

That's not at all true. The reapers are mass murderers. We feel 'uncomfortable' around them because they are mass murderers, not becasue they are 'different'. Nobody wants to kill the elcor, and they're plenty different.

^^^^ This, or the Volus. The reapers are mass murderers and defilers. And for some reason at this point we're supposed to believe they're doing this for benevolent reasons? F*** 'em and the eezo cores the rode in on. Shepard came back from the dead to destroy them not to sit down and have tea and crumpetts. Shepard leads the Chaos Legion. There will be collateral damage. Hell there already is collateral damage.

[FoxShadowblade]

Ludica wrote...

 Oh and just to clarify for people trying to use "why are we willing to kill all Reapers then"
Simply.

Reapers are half-synthetic half-organic. But that doesn't mean everything half-synthetic half-organic is a Reaper.

Reapers are not a race. They are a nation.

An enemy nation is fought until it acknowledges it's defeat. It's a war. (a war in my game about a war? Noooo...)

And Reapers won't. 

We judge cohabitation is impossible, and they must be wiped out.

Simple. Geth. Logic.

[Pelle6666]

Yeah, kill all the synthetic life, control it or change the nature of it by merging it with ours, that is not only offensive it's ****ing weird and makes no sense in the mass effect universe! I have already proved that the geth and organics can live side by side and that an AI can fall in love with a human! Why cant I rub this in the Catalyst's face?!

[BioChair]

Ive seen someone mention legal action regarding the ending.

I have seen someone mention writing their congressman.

I have seen calls for people to be fired.

This takes the cake.