1086 réponses à ce sujet

[Zine2]

Thanks to everyone who actually took the time to read the OP, as opposed to simply looking at the thread title and tried to be snarky.

Again, the purpose of this thread is to explain why people revile the ending.

I am not overly concerned with the terminology (i.e. "Racist" by "Xenophobic"). If you turned your brain off at the mention of the word "Racist", then that's not my loss. I do not feel that arguing over this specific terminology has any merit, because that is not the core of the issue.

Instead, the core of the issue is that the Reapers have committed unspeakably evil acts, use justifications that parallel those of real-world genocidal maniacs (i.e. Hitler), and the player is not allowed to question them - thus implicitly "endorsing" or at the very least "forcing" it upon the player.

Moreover, the premise it uses to justify the said genocidal acts is essentially one that is based on an ideology of hatred. "Organics and Synthetics are hardwired to kill each other". Again, replace "Organic" and "Synthetic" with a real-world ethnicity, and you can see how offensive that premise is. It is not preaching peace and love. It is not fostering galactic unity. It is actively and maliciously sowing discord between Synthetics and Organics, because it cannot see past these lines.

This is why people hate the ending. They know that the Reapers were totally and maliciously WRONG based on their moral and ethical core. This is why most people would rather have the galaxy die than to be forced to work with these monsters.

====

Finally, the people who think this is a call for lynching Bioware are being foolish. This is not an attempt to stifle freedom of expression. Neither does it question the intent of the writers or their sanity (albeit I do question their good taste)

This is simply a critical look at the ending from a historical and ethical perspective. It discards niceities and does not care about Bioware (or fan) feelings.

This analysis simply calls a spade a spade. You can complain all you want about the comparisons between the Reapers and real-world genocides. But I'm not the one who called genocide a "Solution". The Catalyst did. Every comparison is based on what the Catalyst actually said, and what the Reapers actually do.

[Big I]

Bravo OP, well said.

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

Interesting thought not sure I agree though

[DavianBurke]

Zine2 wrote...

Thanks to everyone who actually took the time to read the OP, as opposed to simply looking at the thread title and tried to be snarky.

Again, the purpose of this thread is to explain why people revile the ending.

I am not overly concerned with the terminology (i.e. "Racist" by "Xenophobic"). If you turned your brain off at the mention of the word "Racist", then that's not my loss. I do not feel that arguing over this specific terminology has any merit, because that is not the core of the issue.

Instead, the core of the issue is that the Reapers have committed unspeakably evil acts, use justifications that parallel those of real-world genocidal maniacs (i.e. Hitler), and the player is not allowed to question them - thus implicitly "endorsing" or at the very least "forcing" it upon the player.

Moreover, the premise it uses to justify the said genocidal acts is essentially one that is based on an ideology of hatred. "Organics and Synthetics are hardwired to kill each other". Again, replace "Organic" and "Synthetic" with a real-world ethnicity, and you can see how offensive that premise is. It is not preaching peace and love. It is not fostering galactic unity. It is actively and maliciously sowing discord between Synthetics and Organics, because it cannot see past these lines.

This is why people hate the ending. They know that the Reapers were totally and maliciously WRONG based on their moral and ethical core. This is why most people would rather have the galaxy die than to be forced to work with these monsters.

====

Finally, the people who think this is a call for lynching Bioware are being foolish. This is not an attempt to stifle freedom of expression. Neither does it question the intent of the writers or their sanity (albeit I do question their good taste)

This is simply a critical look at the ending from a historical and ethical perspective. It discards niceities and does not care about Bioware (or fan) feelings.

This analysis simply calls a spade a spade. You can complain all you want about the comparisons between the Reapers and real-world genocides. But I'm not the one who called genocide a "Solution". The Catalyst did. Every comparison is based on what the Catalyst actually said, and what the Reapers actually do.

^   ^
This

[Captain_Brian]

 Wow.  The OP is 100% right, I can't believe how many people are not even reading his original post and just posting snide comments.  

I also can't believe how anyone can read it and not agree.  Really guys, if you don't agree then just post why, because I don't believe it is even remotely arguable if you actually read the opening post.

[Mendelevosa]

Modifié par Mendelevosa, 17 mars 2012 - 01:21 .

[WarBaby2]

Lambchopz wrote...

Think you might be reading into it a bit too much here. You may feel this way. I think most just think it's a bad ending because it was poorly written, not because they oppose it morally.

You can say that again.^^

[Mendelevosa]

[Ona Demonie]

Wow, OP. You made excellent points!

[Captain_Brian]

WarBaby2 wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

Think you might be reading into it a bit too much here. You may feel this way. I think most just think it's a bad ending because it was poorly written, not because they oppose it morally.

You can say that again.^^

Why is he reading too much into it?  His observations are both obvious and 100% spot on.  When playing the game my first thought was the same, the starchild is the most evil, ruthless, and racist entity in the history of the galaxy. It's not even up for debate, they make it clear this is true in the game, they just show it as a GOOD thing and have Shepard go along with it unquestionably, which is horribly messed up.

That's not to say there aren't a TON of other problems with the ending, but this certainly is a major one.

[Ona Demonie]

Captain_Brian wrote...

WarBaby2 wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

Think you might be reading into it a bit too much here. You may feel this way. I think most just think it's a bad ending because it was poorly written, not because they oppose it morally.

You can say that again.^^

Why is he reading too much into it?  His observations are both obvious and 100% spot on.  When playing the game my first thought was the same, the starchild is the most evil, ruthless, and racist entity in the history of the galaxy. It's not even up for debate, they make it clear this is true in the game, they just show it as a GOOD thing and have Shepard go along with it unquestionably, which is horribly messed up.

That's not to say there aren't a TON of other problems with the ending, but this certainly is a major one.

Quoted for Truth.

It is an undespitful fact that the Reapers committed Genocide for millions and millions of years, viewing organics as weed and flowers; weeding every 50,000 year when the weeds (advanced species) got too big and the flowers (not-so advanced species) don't have enough room to grow. Why? For the mere fact that "advanced species will create synthetics, which will kill them all". So really, Reapers are doing the supposed "synthetics' goal" of killing organics. Mind you, Catalyst is aware that there's Geth... yet he does not acknowledge that Shepard has created peace between the created and creators? 

[Lietuvis]

THis is awesome.

[Grasich]

At first I was like "wtf" then I was like "Oh... ok that makes sense" now I'm like "**** it, this guy is on to something!"

[GoblinSapper]

Evil_medved wrote...

You reapers are all racist.

This needs to be a Meme now.

[Doctor Uburian]

This is the best reason i have seen so far to change the endings.

[Baronesa]

Good reply OP...

It is a bit sad that not many took the time to read the arguments and just engaged on mocking. You made great points.

I'm sure I brought up the genocide argument at some point but right now trying to even find a post I made a week ago is pointless

[Eterna]

You catalysts are all racist!

[thesalla]

This is why people hate the ending. They know that the Reapers were totally and maliciously WRONG based on their moral and ethical core. This is why most people would rather have the galaxy die than to be forced to work with these monsters.

I, myself expected a "join to/help the Reapers" ending, and one of my Shepards surely would have taken it. Since ME2 I always believed (up until the ME3 finale) the Reapers were constructs serving as an "archive" of organic races, thus saving them from their own stupidity (like wiping out each other, not necessarily with the intervention of synthetics) and giving a new chance for unknown intelligent races (just like how they left the current races alone when they harvested the protheans). With the existance of the geth, Cerberus, genophage, etc. the sapient races continued the pattern, and the Reapers found their extenction inevitable (again).
Continuing your Hitler analogy, imagine Germany deploying nuclear warheads or "completing" the Holocaust. To avoid that, a godlike entity "archives" humanity (with cruel, morally wrong methods though), and gives a new lifeform a new chance. Long story short, I'd compare the Reapers to what God allegedly did in the flood myth rather than to Hitler.

PS.: Of course I still don't like the ending, most of these justifications above (which seems to be only mine) are missing.

[Slappy Ya Face]

I was so ready to jump in here and call him a raving lunatic...

I wouldn't label it racist, but... Honestly, I can see this guy's points. It was pretty psychotic. Especially in the fact that you can't question it.

"I'm commander Shepard and I condone genocide."

Modifié par Slappy Ya Face, 17 mars 2012 - 07:46 .

[Grinds]

Mother of god....That can only mean Marauder Shields was protecting us from this hateful racism.

Marauder Shields not the final boss we deserved but the final boss we needed. May you rest well friend.

[DarkThunder5968]

Thank you OP for putting into words what I have been
thinking since beating the game.

 I felt like the synthesis
ending was the worse, taking the freedoms of every sentient race in the
universe and forcing it to change and become one and the same.  It’s no different than Hitler attempting to
create a master race.

The ending is morally wrong and felt like a punch in the gut
in my opinion.

Modifié par DarkThunder5968, 17 mars 2012 - 07:54 .

[ericjdev]

Haven't seen this thread come to the surface in a long time, what a treat.

[Statulos]

Zine2 wrote...

Thanks to everyone who actually took the time to read the OP, as opposed to simply looking at the thread title and tried to be snarky.

Again, the purpose of this thread is to explain why people revile the ending.

I am not overly concerned with the terminology (i.e. "Racist" by "Xenophobic"). If you turned your brain off at the mention of the word "Racist", then that's not my loss. I do not feel that arguing over this specific terminology has any merit, because that is not the core of the issue.

Instead, the core of the issue is that the Reapers have committed unspeakably evil acts, use justifications that parallel those of real-world genocidal maniacs (i.e. Hitler), and the player is not allowed to question them - thus implicitly "endorsing" or at the very least "forcing" it upon the player.

Moreover, the premise it uses to justify the said genocidal acts is essentially one that is based on an ideology of hatred. "Organics and Synthetics are hardwired to kill each other". Again, replace "Organic" and "Synthetic" with a real-world ethnicity, and you can see how offensive that premise is. It is not preaching peace and love. It is not fostering galactic unity. It is actively and maliciously sowing discord between Synthetics and Organics, because it cannot see past these lines.

This is why people hate the ending. They know that the Reapers were totally and maliciously WRONG based on their moral and ethical core. This is why most people would rather have the galaxy die than to be forced to work with these monsters.

====

Finally, the people who think this is a call for lynching Bioware are being foolish. This is not an attempt to stifle freedom of expression. Neither does it question the intent of the writers or their sanity (albeit I do question their good taste)

This is simply a critical look at the ending from a historical and ethical perspective. It discards niceities and does not care about Bioware (or fan) feelings.

This analysis simply calls a spade a spade. You can complain all you want about the comparisons between the Reapers and real-world genocides. But I'm not the one who called genocide a "Solution". The Catalyst did. Every comparison is based on what the Catalyst actually said, and what the Reapers actually do.

The most weird part is that the whole game allows us to demonstrate that reaper logic is completely wrong anf based on wrong asumptions.

Determinism is the key concept to understand reaper logic: you use our technology, you develop in the path we want you to and that´s why you´re doomed. Well, gess what? I just demonstrated that species are self-aware and can fix their own mistakes. We did that with the Rachni, the Krogan and the Geth.

[Adynata]

Grasich wrote...

At first I was like "wtf" then I was like "Oh... ok that makes sense" now I'm like "**** it, this guy is on to something!"

My sentiments exactly. Biological racism was pervasive in the Mass Effect universe, and in the end there was no other option but to accept it or die in protest.

[dointime85]

To OP: Thanks for making that abundantly clear. This argument must be heard. Perhaps it's the most important of all.