1086 réponses à ce sujet

[Novouto]

oooo if they start thinking this ending could be skewed as racist, they might actually change it. You know how much people fear being labeled racist.

[Ultra Prism]

Now this whole new perspective

interesting, we can add this to holding the line movement

[emp6]

OH SNAP there are racist and offensive characters in artistic works? Damn we should call the Ministry of Truth to get rid of this.

[Arios1570]

emp6 wrote...

OH SNAP there are racist and offensive characters in artistic works? Damn we should call the Ministry of Truth to get rid of this.

It's not just that the Catalyst is racist, it's that you're forced to go along with him.  I'd have no problem with it if I could punt that little bosh'tet off into space, but I was forced to say "Ok" and go, lockstep with his plan.

[Afroman12]

Walrusninja wrote...

Well this is new ....

[TheMerchantMan]

That Starchild did look suspiciously Aryan too me.

[dointime85]

They are actually lucky that no one in the media has picked up on this yet. Imagine this sh**storm...

[emp6]

Arios1570 wrote...

emp6 wrote...

OH SNAP there are racist and offensive characters in artistic works? Damn we should call the Ministry of Truth to get rid of this.

It's not just that the Catalyst is racist, it's that you're forced to go along with him.  I'd have no problem with it if I could punt that little bosh'tet off into space, but I was forced to say "Ok" and go, lockstep with his plan.

Did you quit GTA because you always end up playing a misanthrop maniac?

Modifié par emp6, 17 mars 2012 - 08:59 .

[Xandurpein]

That is probably my one biggest problem with the ending. That you aren't allowed to call the Starchild on it's idiotic premises. I have zero reason to accept the truth of the problem the Reapers claim they are protecting us from. In fact, the tone of the whole game leading up to the end says the exact opposite. I lost all connection to Shepard when I wasn't able to refuse accepting the truth of this last RGB dilemma.

[Edje Edgar]

I don't think racist is the right word, so much as that race isn't the factor in the catalyst judgement.

But its a definate case of genocide as an acceptable solution to a conflict. Which is, by any and all standards, completely disgusting.

[Zine2]

Baronesa wrote...
It is a bit sad that not many took the time to read the arguments and just engaged on mocking. You made great points.

I really don't mind. They help keep the thread afloat and help other people understand why they hated the ending. Their ignorance actually serves a purpose for once .

[Su13perfitz]

Yes and no is genocide understandable in previous human interaction no it is not. That being said if you will never be able to live in peace with another you have no choice but to kill them. So from and objective point of view it is understandable. Absolute war which is an actual concept has a place. Remember the paragon option only hurts the reapers and shep and since the reapers will never stop you must kill them to stop them. To not kill or subdue every last reaper is merely allowing more to die which is even more immoral. I believe you have moral justification for genocide  in game premise as shep...that being said the ending sucks and hold the line.

Modifié par Su13perfitz, 19 mars 2012 - 02:54 .

[CavScout]

Novouto wrote...

oooo if they start thinking this ending could be skewed as racist, they might actually change it. You know how much people fear being labeled racist.

Yes, vacillating between entitlement rage, FTC complaints and accusations of racism should make your movement look so legit....

[Mara281]

Edje Edgar wrote...

I don't think racist is the right word, so much as that race isn't the factor in the catalyst judgement.

But its a definate case of genocide as an acceptable solution to a conflict. Which is, by any and all standards, completely disgusting.

I agree. I didn't feel any racism depicted in the ending, but the fact that Shepard couldn't say no or argue against mass genocide really bothered me. My choice would have been to either try to convince him that this was wrong or to just keep fighting. I hated being forced to choose 3 different flavors of galactic genocide. Really destroyed the whole theme of tolerance and acceptance they had been building up throughout the games and even in ME3 itself.

[Drak41n]

Star child's final solution! Literally. This clearly wasn't intended, but it's also a rational and logical conclusion. This just speaks to how awful the ending is. It show a complete lack of control over the story.

[sartt]

Zine2 wrote...

This is not meant to be nice. This is meant to be a blunt, honest, and to the point assessment - because everyone seems to be trying to avoid the Elephant in the room.

Mass Effect's Ending attempts to condone and justify genocide. This is why it is almost universally reviled.

The one common element in all the endings is that you will meet an entity known as the "Catalyst". Set aside all of the other plot holes and minor complaints, and focus on the Catalyst for now.

This is the entity that created the Reapers. This is the entity that is directly responsible for the genocide of multiple sentient races over tens of thousands of years. It is his fault that Earth, Palaven, Thessia, and the Galaxy is burning.

The Catalyst is in fact a war criminal on a scale worse than any of our own real-world tyrants. Hitler's gas chambers, Genghis Khan's campaigns of extermination, and Tamerlene's pyramid of skulls is nothing compared to what the Reapers have done. That it tries to disguise itself as a young child does nothing to exonerate it of the magnitude of its crimes - it's actually sickening. It's like Hitler having plastic surgery to look like an innocent child.

Even worse, this is an entity that attempts to justify its genocidal actions - in a way that is bluntly little different from the real world genocide of the Jews.

It uses euphemisms to describe mass murder. It uses the term "Chaos" to describe people, as though they are a problem and not living, breathing, beings. It calls its actions a "Solution", just as the certain people called the Holocaust their "Final Solution". It even goes as far as calling the the liquification of corpses into Reaper components as "Ascension", no different from how the Concentration Camps collected the hair and skin of the dead victims to use as furniture components.

Even worse, the premise of the Catalyst is fundamentally a racist premise. It boils down to "Organics and Synthetics are so different that they will always end up destroying each other". Really? You are now judged by your component parts - metal or protein - instead of the content of your character? How offensive would it be in real life to hear someone say you should be judged by the color of your skin?

To top it all off, the player is not allowed to question its actions. It must stand idly by and accept its justifications. You are not allowed to tell it that is wrong. Mac Walters and Casey Hudson actually thought this was a good thing too, as noted here in the "Final Hours":

Mac Walters on the Star Child/Reapers
"Originally, with the catalyst, the star child at the end of the game, I had written that much more in the guise of a investigative style conversation, where there is something he tells you but then, you get to ask a bunch of questions and you get your questions answered. But then me and Casey talked and decided, lets keep the conversation "High level". Give you the details that you need to know, but don't get into the stuff that you don't need to know. Like "How long have they been reaping?" You don't need to know the answers to the mass effect universe. So we intentionally left those out"

But given that they were planning to allow the player to ask only softball questions ("How long have you been reaping?", as opposed to "Why did you not seek a different solution that did NOT involve mass murder?"), they were apparently so in love with their "Genocide is justifiable!" ending that they didn't think it was a big deal.

======
But it gets even worse. You are not simply prevented from telling the Catalyst that it is wrong. You are also forced to go along with its next plan - its next "solution".

This is why the most popular alternate ending thus far is the "I refuse all of your options" ending. Players would seriously rather have the entire galaxy wiped out than be forced to serve the Catalyst.

And you know what? Because they are absolutely right.

Genocide is wrong. Period. There is no room for debate. Nothing can justify what the Catalyst did, no matter how much it claims it's so much smarter than all of us. No matter how much Mac Walters thinks its smarter than all of us.

And this is ironically a lesson that the rest of the series spends so much time teaching us. It shows us that even beings of another races are people "just like us" with their own hopes and dreams. It doesn't matter if the Elcor are big and look funny. We love them because they have art, and culture, and feelings too, even if we cannot fully comprehend it like they do.
----

This is why the ME3 ending was a total and abject failure. It is not art. It is not deep. It is offensive.

It is about a brat AI proudly explaining his Mein Kampf. That people should be judged along racial lines: Organic vs Synthetic. And that because of these racial lines, he was totally justified in committing genocide over, and over, and over again.

And the player is forced to become one of the pawns in his game. That is why players hate the ending; and why the most popular "alternative" ending is one wherein the player completely and totally rejects the Catalyst's "options", even if it means certain military defeat.
-----
[Also... since some people will argue "But the Catalyst is correct about organics and synthetics!"

The Catalyst was in fact completely and totally wrong. Just because it says it's correct does not mean it is true. That is the trick used by propagandists everywhere.

Instead, what people should do is to analyze the strength of its arguments. And frankly, anyone with some common sense would realize that this is a very weak argument.

There is nothing that inherently forces Organics and Synthetics to fight each other. Races and people fight all the time. Turians make war on Krogans. Krogans make war on Salarians. Even without synthetics there will still be conflict in the universe.

However, the Catalyst's premise is that there is a divide between Synthetics and Organics, and that they are "fated" to kill each other. That's not a sound argument. That's just racist ideology. Again that's just judging people based on their component parts - metal or protein - rather than the strength of their character. Only a racist in the real world would claim that your character is dictated by the color of your skin, just as the Catalyst's grand assertion that being a Synthetic or an Organic hard-wires you down a particular path is no less racist.

And ironically, you can in fact forge an alliance between an organic and Synthetic race (Quarians and Geth) within the game - proving that the divide between the two is nothing more than a lie.

Therefore, what the Catalyst is saying is not factual. Just because it says "the cycle will continue" without its intervention does not make it true. It's just an arrogant being who is trying to play God, and which has killed trillons of sentient beings in the name of upholding its flawed premise.]

It is THE FINAL SOLUTION to all Advanced Organic life. Report to the Genetic Goo Blenders.

[AwesomeDudex64]

 wat

[Zine2]

Su13perfitz wrote...
Absolute war which is an actual concept has a place.

No it does not. This is why we call genocide a crime against humanity - the highest and most atrocious crime possible. Total War focuses on the military defeat of a power that refuses to give up, but even though the Allies practiced this in World War 2 they didn't wipe out the entire German, Italian, and Japanese race after the war. Not all Germans were evil and supported the Holocaust. Not all Japanese wanted to kamikaze American warships.

There must always be a recognition that you cannot simply judge people based on nationality, racial lines, or their species. You must judge individual people by the merits of their character. The moment you fail to do so, you are just preaching an ideology of hatred. That is what the Catalyst does, which is why its actions are offensive and unjusfitiable.

[Heinzmann01]

Why does everything always have to go back to **** Germany? I mean really?

And also, racist!? I mean, I understand the points your making but everything since ME 1 has been leading up to this moment, when you finally defeat the Reapers, hence the no option to walk away. Oh and one thing.... since when can a computer be racist?

Modifié par Heinzmann01, 19 mars 2012 - 03:21 .

[Zine2]

The Holocaust was the largest act of genocide committed in recent times, and is the very basis of International Law governing crimes against humanity. The human race decided genocide was not acceptable at Nuremberg.

Therefore it should not be surprising that there are many references to Germany; and rejecting evidence just because "It's Germany again!" only perpetuates ignorance.

Moreover, "since when can a computer be racist!" is a dumb question. The Catalyst is more than just a computer. It is a sentient being. Therefore it can be judged as a person, and based on its moral actions it is quite simply a war criminal.

Modifié par Zine2, 19 mars 2012 - 03:30 .

[SilverBecker]

The OP's argument definitely has it's merits. I enjoyed your post and upon reflection your stance does fit in with some of the larger philosophical issues I have with the ending.

[H. Birdman]

This is basically right. So much of ME has been about embracing or at least tolerating diversity. Javik said the lack of diversity was what doomed the Protheans. The ending not only wastes that compelling theme, it directly contradicts it by letting the galaxy's greatest genocidal war criminal off the hook in 2/3 of cases, without even discussing whether this could possibly be a moral course of action.

BioWare should be ashamed. They squandered the core moral message of the entire series. D*mn writing by committee. It ruins everything good in popular culture.

[Oakenshield1]

*slow clap* Epic win, good sir!

[Eivuwan]

I wonder how the directors are going to respond to this. Lol

[Oakenshield1]

emp6 wrote...

OH SNAP there are racist and offensive characters in artistic works? Damn we should call the Ministry of Truth to get rid of this.

What would locking it in a floating rock do?