1086 réponses à ce sujet

[weltraumhamster89]

I think the OP is totally right. I just tried to explain this today to some trolls on my Amazon forum - but they kept going about how "artistic" and "logical" and cool the ending was.

No. It is totally Hitler-style, I'm sorry. Good job OP for being so reasonable!!

[dallicant]

Ashilana wrote...

dallicant wrote...
As a whole, the ending feels deeply authoritarian.  The Catalyst offers an essentialist view of the universe that the player is not allowed to challenge, despite having always had the option to question authority.  This is why the ending failed to do justice to an otherwise great series.

Exactly.  There are those who think comparing the idealogy of the starchild to that of the creators of the game, but we are left with no alternative... because they gave us no alternative.   They chose to make us cooperate with that war criminal and have that be the end of their game.

Well, I don't think that's necessarily the case.  We don't know exactly what went on in BioWare, and the ending is at odds with the series as a whole.  It sounds more like it was rushed, or just not very well thought-out.  The implications, while unfortunate, may have also been unintentional.  While the ending is authoritarian in tone, it's not fair to say BioWare or Casey Hudson is as well.

[Omilophile]

I suppose it is racist, but I doubt the writers intended it this way. They thought they were just being clever, which they weren't. They were being lazy.

Modifié par Omilophile, 26 mars 2012 - 09:54 .

[Zing Freelancer]

Very good post OP, reasonable and constructive, I can totally get behind what you're saying.

So now BioWare is racists too I guess, fair enough, they did communicate that in their ARTISTIC ENDING... Who the **** was the moron who approved that ending script anyway? O.o

[Eckswhyzed]

"Genocide is wrong. Period. There is no room for debate. Nothing can justify what the Catalyst did, no matter how much it claims it's so much smarter than all of us. No matter how much Mac Walters thinks its smarter than all of us. "

Actually genocide is perfectly justifiable if you are in a ****ty enough situation. I really take issue with deontologist crap like this.

"As I stated in an earlier post, the evolutionary potential of synthetics is magnitudes greater than that of organics. The speed, intelligence, and power that they can develop in a few short centuries makes synthetics a theoretically superior "race." It is this potential that the Catalyst sees as the problem. In the event of serious conflict between organics and synthetics, it is highly unlikely that the inferior organic could survive.

In the case of organic vs. organic, the ability to completely wipe out another race is completely possible, but not to wipe out all other races combined. It is this threshold (the point at which one race is unable to fight the combined forces of all other races) that kept the Citadel Council together and it is this threshold that only synthetics have the (theoretical) potential to exceed."

Last time I checked, Jewish people were not capable of undergoing a technological singularity.

@OP

I would like to be able to point out where I disagree with the Catalyst, but, meh, water under the bridge. And....that's why I chose Synthesis. If I can't prove that Organics and Synthetics can peacefully co-exist, I'll just merge them.

[Edrick1976]

Is this a real post or a really ofensive Troll post?

[Yahmosa007]

its a game bro

[digby69]

op get a life

[Ashilana]

Edington wrote...

Is this a real post or a really ofensive Troll post?

Sadly, you did not read the post or you would know the answer to that.

Yes it is a real post. 

No it is not an offensive post.

[RubiconI7]

Honestly,
this is actually very well thought-out. The parallel comparisons works illustrates the argument quite well.

[Jackal82]

You actually make some good points but technically it not actually genocide as the reapers are recreating life in the galaxy in reaper forms as the child ai says, so there still alive just modified but I understood  your point on it. Another thing is calling the ai kid a war criminal is not exactly right either there are no rules in war(all is fair in love and WAR) as long as you win the war whatever you did is justified since reapers have not lost why would they care if they broke some imaginary rule of war. This can be seen in examples from WW II the allies fire bombed German cites and nuked Nagasaki and Hiroshima and never went on trial for that. Not saying Hitler was right in any fashion just saying it is not like he is going to put himself on trial if he won.
           
Also Bioware has addressed these themes before with things like the Genophage, Rachni, and etc. So making the Reapers the ultimate form of everything wrong actually makes the ending sort of tolerable (except for the terrible choices). Overall that was an interesting perspective on the ending.

Modifié par Jackal82, 26 mars 2012 - 11:49 .

[BlackAlpha]

Nevermind...

Modifié par BlackAlpha, 26 mars 2012 - 11:22 .

[poundoffleshaa]

On the one hand genocide is wrong on the other most player went to the Crucible with the intent of wiping out the Reaper (aka Genocide) which was the right thing to do for the sake of all life in the galaxy.

[eventhewaves]

I've been saying this since I beat the game two weeks ago. (The phrase "pint-sized holographic Pol Pot" has been thrown around many times on my end.) Had not realized there was a thread around here dedicated to the genocidal implications of even the purportedly "good" endings, but... glad to see somebody made the argument.

Very glad.

What an abominable ending.

[WedgeFan]

 A very well written and thought out opinion.
I disagree.
My first concern arises from the way the OP is using the word racism.   

    rac·ism   [rey-siz-uhm]noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races  determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race  is superior and has the right to rule others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race  or other races.

At no point do I remember The Catalyst mention that one or the other (organics/synthetics) were superior to the other. Sheperd most certainly did not feel that way. For The Catalyst and the Reapers this was simply a matter of logic. While they had intelligence, it was stilled governed by 1's and 0's. We were never given any indication that they had any type of morality (good or evil). They simply did what they were told or programed to do. There was no malice behind their actions. They did not hate organics.

Shepard's decision was also based on cold hard logic. While he more than likely hated the Reapers, he didn't hate them because they were synthetic. He hated them for their actions. He was also a carrer military officer, and made a decision that every officer hopes they never have to make.....the sacrifice of his allies/troops to save others or further the goals of the big picture. There are instances of this in our own history, most famoulsy made by Churchill in WWII.

At worst his decision was selfish....kill the geth, whom he'd just made sentient and brokered peace with the Quarians, or watch his homeworld burn. At best  It was pure numbers (A very Vulcan moment)....the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few. (granted we are talking the many = trillions, the few = billions). But again, his decision was not made on the basis of "They are synthetics, therefore they must die.".

Modifié par WedgeFan, 27 mars 2012 - 12:49 .

[EmGo]

Evil_medved wrote...

You reapers are all racist.

Heey... the racist guy is also dead on the Citadel in the end I just realized...

[Baronesa]

I'm amazed how it seems many people just read the title of this thread and don't even bother to read it...

[Tony208]

I came to the same conclusion.

In all three games, Shepard has to set aside differences and work together with the races of the galaxy. And I felt that unity and diversity were the main themes of the series, not synthetics vs. organics.

I've always thought that Bioware was ahead of the curve, they are one of the few mainstream properties in any medium that doesn't stereotype gays (at least in Mass Effect, is that DA2 thing a misunderstanding? Straight or gay, no one likes rejection). It's something I already see way too often in TV and movies.

Then they do this ending that boils down to galaxy wide racism and genocide. Unintended or not, it's unacceptable.

[stcalvin13]

I can dig it--but let's not go calling it racist. Prejudiced? Sure, but we aren't dealing with races here so, it's gotta be something else.

[Ludica]

WedgeFan wrote...

At no point do I remember The Catalyst mention that one or the other (organics/synthetics) were superior to the other.

When it said "synthetics always destroy organics".

Sheperd most certainly did not feel that way.

And that's the problem. Most Shepards do not feel that way and have evidence to back it up.

For The Catalyst and the Reapers this was simply a matter of logic.

Logic that was completely made-up and thwarthed the second time around this time.(of known ones.) The first is Prothean cycle, where:
1)They were conquering other races, so no wonder synthetics felt uneasy.
2)Protheans won, therefore completely nuking "synthetics always destroy organics" until the Reapers came along to show their made-up philosophy.

While they had intelligence, it was stilled governed by 1's and 0's. We were never given any indication that they had any type of morality (good or evil). They simply did what they were told or programed to do. There was no malice behind their actions. They did not hate organics.

Racism is a type of judgment. It doesn't have to involve emotions. It can be built into a program, and most likely was. That doesn't make it any less horrific because Shepard agreed.

Shepard's decision was also based on cold hard logic.

Not unless you failed to establish Quarian/Geth peace, but epic fails don't go well with logic.

While he more than likely hated the Reapers, he didn't hate them because they were synthetic. He hated them for their actions.

Which is why he/she decided to abandon his/her ideas in favor of theirs.

He was also a carrer military officer, and made a decision that every officer hopes they never have to make.....the sacrifice of his allies/troops to save others or further the goals of the big picture. There are instances of this in our own history, most famoulsy made by Churchill in WWII.

Except it's based entirely on the enemy leader's words. It amazes me how eager you people are to trust the Catalyst. You know, the enemy.

At worst his decision was selfish....kill the geth, whom he'd just made sentient and brokered peace with the Quarians, or watch his homeworld burn.

Or cut the crap and win conventionaly. Which is shown to be possible numerous times. One of them is right before the end, no less.

At best  It was pure numbers (A very Vulcan moment)....the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few. (granted we are talking the many = trillions, the few = billions).

Or rather, "the words of enemy leader outweight your entire experience". 

But again, his decision was not made on the basis of "They are synthetics, therefore they must die.".

I would like to point out again, that yes it was. The Catalyst told this to you and you simply bought it without any kind of questioning. It pretty much pulled and indoctrination on you(and no, i'm not talking about that theory).

[whizwart]

mmmm...troll

[AkeasharK]

If you've been playing the entire trilogy with the intention of destroying the Reapers to save the universe, then you sir, are racist and genocidal. Thousands of Reapers, each a race in its own right.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Species isnt the same thing as Race, fyi


saying a human is better than a dog, right here, right now.  whatchugonnadoaboutit???

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 27 mars 2012 - 01:20 .

[Kanon777]

Racist? Really?

[8666737]

I never thought of it this way but your very right, the ending forced you to basically be the "hero" accepting the genocide of all sentient life in the galaxy. By shepard playing along with the entity and using the choices It defined, they are breaking all the free choice and moral ability you fought for in ME1,2 and most of 3.

Some very good points.