1086 réponses à ce sujet

[Zix13]

If fans are a race... then yes.

[Seifer006]

you've got to be kidding me...

you're pulling the "race card" act... c'mon. Bioware may have done a poor job on the ending...but they didn't go and promote genocide........IT'S A GAME DUDE!!!

[Zine2]

Funny. I thought Bioware was claiming that the ending was "art".

You cannot use "It's just a game!" as an argument while at the same time playing the "Artistic Integrity!" card.

Modifié par Zine2, 27 mars 2012 - 01:31 .

[MegaSovereign]

Now robots can play the race card? What is this I dont even

[alienatedflea]

Lambchopz wrote...

Think you might be reading into it a bit too much here.

This.

[Clayless]

Actually, like Javik pointed out, Synthetics are more alien to organics than him and Shepard are to each other.

The Catalyst could be right. You can't use organic comparisons on something that is different in every way.

[Zine2]

forsaken gamer wrote...

Since when does a fictional story need to align with conventional morality principles or adhere to a litmus test? 

Ever since people decided that genocide and mass-murder were crimes against humanity. Ever since people decided that prejudice belongs to the Dark Ages in light of "All men are created equal".

Again, you cannot use "it's just fiction!" as an argument if its creators argue that it is art. That actually opens your "art" to actual critical criticisms - What message is it sending? What emotion is it trying to evoke?

And so far, anyone who actually read the OP instead of making snide comments generally agrees: Its message is that Prejudice is a justification for genocide. The emotion it evokes is disgust.

[Unlimited69x]

Lol, I like your take on the ending. Quite valid in a way. Logically, it makes sense.

[Ahms]

Well, this is a fresh perspective....

[Baronesa]

alienatedflea wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

Think you might be reading into it a bit too much here.

This.

And that is precisely the problem

LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE!

But in all seriousness, looking beyond terminology, the message the starchild presents is one of bigotry that goes AGAINST all the themes presented not only on the game but on the previous ones, that is why for Shepard to ACCEPT the starchild's reasoning is such an offensive and horrible thing to experience.

[robertm2]

the only thing that is offensive is people trying to defend the reapers as a race. there sole purpose is to destroy all organic life. genocide is sort of ok in that regard.

[Zine2]

Genocide is never okay. Also, I just laugh at people who are ignorantly saying "So robots can play the race card?"

If they actually read the OP, they'd realize that's not the point. Like, at all.

[Ludica]

Baronesa wrote...

LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE!

Another two conflicting cards "you're thinking too much into this" and "It's incomprehensibly deep".

[Unlimited69x]

Seifer006 wrote...

you've got to be kidding me...

you're pulling the "race card" act... c'mon. Bioware may have done a poor job on the ending...but they didn't go and promote genocide........IT'S A GAME DUDE!!!

Not directly. Indirectly they did. It's like if a woman goes out to buy a purse that's covered in alligator skin. She didn't kill the alligator, but she's supporting the cause and demand for it.

[Seifer006]

Zine2 wrote...

Funny. I thought Bioware was claiming that the ending was "art".

You cannot use "It's just a game!" as an argument while at the same time playing the "Artistic Integrity!" card.

who said anyting about "artistic integrity card"???

[Zkyire]

Zine2 wrote...

This is not meant to be nice. This is meant to be a blunt, honest, and to the point assessment - because everyone seems to be trying to avoid the Elephant in the room.

Mass Effect's Ending attempts to condone and justify genocide. This is why it is almost universally reviled.

The one common element in all the endings is that you will meet an entity known as the "Catalyst". Set aside all of the other plot holes and minor complaints, and focus on the Catalyst for now.

This is the entity that created the Reapers. This is the entity that is directly responsible for the genocide of multiple sentient races over tens of thousands of years. It is his fault that Earth, Palaven, Thessia, and the Galaxy is burning.

The Catalyst is in fact a war criminal on a scale worse than any of our own real-world tyrants. Hitler's gas chambers, Genghis Khan's campaigns of extermination, and Tamerlene's pyramid of skulls is nothing compared to what the Reapers have done. That it tries to disguise itself as a young child does nothing to exonerate it of the magnitude of its crimes - it's actually sickening. It's like Hitler having plastic surgery to look like an innocent child.

Even worse, this is an entity that attempts to justify its genocidal actions - in a way that is bluntly little different from the real world genocide of the Jews.

It uses euphemisms to describe mass murder. It uses the term "Chaos" to describe people, as though they are a problem and not living, breathing, beings. It calls its actions a "Solution", just as the certain people called the Holocaust their "Final Solution". It even goes as far as calling the the liquification of corpses into Reaper components as "Ascension", no different from how the Concentration Camps collected the hair and skin of the dead victims to use as furniture components.

Even worse, the premise of the Catalyst is fundamentally a racist premise. It boils down to "Organics and Synthetics are so different that they will always end up destroying each other". Really? You are now judged by your component parts - metal or protein - instead of the content of your character? How offensive would it be in real life to hear someone say you should be judged by the color of your skin?

To top it all off, the player is not allowed to question its actions. It must stand idly by and accept its justifications. You are not allowed to tell it that is wrong. Mac Walters and Casey Hudson actually thought this was a good thing too, as noted here in the "Final Hours":

Mac Walters on the Star Child/Reapers
"Originally, with the catalyst, the star child at the end of the game, I had written that much more in the guise of a investigative style conversation, where there is something he tells you but then, you get to ask a bunch of questions and you get your questions answered. But then me and Casey talked and decided, lets keep the conversation "High level". Give you the details that you need to know, but don't get into the stuff that you don't need to know. Like "How long have they been reaping?" You don't need to know the answers to the mass effect universe. So we intentionally left those out"

But given that they were planning to allow the player to ask only softball questions ("How long have you been reaping?", as opposed to "Why did you not seek a different solution that did NOT involve mass murder?"), they were apparently so in love with their "Genocide is justifiable!" ending that they didn't think it was a big deal.

======
But it gets even worse. You are not simply prevented from telling the Catalyst that it is wrong. You are also forced to go along with its next plan - its next "solution".

This is why the most popular alternate ending thus far is the "I refuse all of your options" ending. Players would seriously rather have the entire galaxy wiped out than be forced to serve the Catalyst.

And you know what? Because they are absolutely right.

Genocide is wrong. Period. There is no room for debate. Nothing can justify what the Catalyst did, no matter how much it claims it's so much smarter than all of us. No matter how much Mac Walters thinks its smarter than all of us.

And this is ironically a lesson that the rest of the series spends so much time teaching us. It shows us that even beings of another races are people "just like us" with their own hopes and dreams. It doesn't matter if the Elcor are big and look funny. We love them because they have art, and culture, and feelings too, even if we cannot fully comprehend it like they do.
----

This is why the ME3 ending was a total and abject failure. It is not art. It is not deep. It is offensive.

It is about a brat AI proudly explaining his Mein Kampf. That people should be judged along racial lines: Organic vs Synthetic. And that because of these racial lines, he was totally justified in committing genocide over, and over, and over again.

And the player is forced to become one of the pawns in his game. That is why players hate the ending; and why the most popular "alternative" ending is one wherein the player completely and totally rejects the Catalyst's "options", even if it means certain military defeat.
-----
[Also... since some people will argue "But the Catalyst is correct about organics and synthetics!"

The Catalyst was in fact completely and totally wrong. Just because it says it's correct does not mean it is true. That is the trick used by propagandists everywhere.

Instead, what people should do is to analyze the strength of its arguments. And frankly, anyone with some common sense would realize that this is a very weak argument.

There is nothing that inherently forces Organics and Synthetics to fight each other. Races and people fight all the time. Turians make war on Krogans. Krogans make war on Salarians. Even without synthetics there will still be conflict in the universe.

However, the Catalyst's premise is that there is a divide between Synthetics and Organics, and that they are "fated" to kill each other. That's not a sound argument. That's just racist ideology. Again that's just judging people based on their component parts - metal or protein - rather than the strength of their character. Only a racist in the real world would claim that your character is dictated by the color of your skin, just as the Catalyst's grand assertion that being a Synthetic or an Organic hard-wires you down a particular path is no less racist.

And ironically, you can in fact forge an alliance between an organic and Synthetic race (Quarians and Geth) within the game - proving that the divide between the two is nothing more than a lie.

Therefore, what the Catalyst is saying is not factual. Just because it says "the cycle will continue" without its intervention does not make it true. It's just an arrogant being who is trying to play God, and which has killed trillons of sentient beings in the name of upholding its flawed premise.]

Racist, Racist, Jews, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Holocaust, Racist, Racist, Hitler (And most importantly) "offensive".

It's just a game, brah.

Modifié par Zkyire, 27 mars 2012 - 01:44 .

[Ludica]

Seifer006 wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

Funny. I thought Bioware was claiming that the ending was "art".

You cannot use "It's just a game!" as an argument while at the same time playing the "Artistic Integrity!" card.

who said anyting about "artistic integrity card"???

People who defend the ending. All 0.33 of them. 

[Baronesa]

Ludica wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE!

Another two conflicting cards "you're thinking too much into this" and "It's incomprehensibly deep".

Good catch!

I think the majority of comments of people making snide remarks, is simply a defense mechanism. They see something that challenge core values or can have a deep impact, and rather use ridicule than confront it. When I first came tot he post days ago, I thought it would be a joke, until I start reading it. Does not agree with some of the language choices of the OP, but the ideas, the real message was delivered clearly, and it was one that a few others have touch before, including me.

As I stated, if anyone can buy starchild's explanation, then I'm pretty sure they have no problem killing the Rachni Queen.. or NOT curing the genophage, the underlying justifications ar ethe same ones given on the whole "synthetics vs organics"

Modifié par Baronesa, 27 mars 2012 - 01:46 .

[nonpromqueen]

...what

[Seifer006]

Unlimited69x wrote...

Seifer006 wrote...

you've got to be kidding me...

you're pulling the "race card" act... c'mon. Bioware may have done a poor job on the ending...but they didn't go and promote genocide........IT'S A GAME DUDE!!!

Not directly. Indirectly they did. It's like if a woman goes out to buy a purse that's covered in alligator skin. She didn't kill the alligator, but she's supporting the cause and demand for it.

no. i would buy a purse that looks nice even if it does have alligator skin on it. not that i support it...but simply it's a nice fashion.

still going so far that BW wanted shepard to commit genocide is far extreme to me (they didn't intend it to be that way) 

[NightHawkIL]

forsaken gamer wrote...

And so far, anyone who actually read the OP instead of making snide comments generally agrees: Its message is that Prejudice is a justification for genocide. The emotion it evokes is disgust.

So the Catalyst's logic is disgusting.  And?

And there is no option to refuse it or even point that fact out. That forces the player to make a choice in which every option leaves them morally bankrupt. Hence, the ending supports a morally bankrupt and downright genocidal point of view.

[Zine2]

Seifer006 wrote...


who said anyting about "artistic integrity card"???

Bioware did.

What, you think I should limit the discussion to YOUR opinion only? Sorry, but no. Bioware has played the artistic integrity card. Therefore any claim "It's just a game!" is pointless and silly.

You cannot be immune from criticism because "It's just a game" when you are trying to be taken seriously as art.

[Satirist]

That is a really pathetic try to invoke Godwin's law! OP, you fail miserably. Big time!