1086 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

fle6isnow wrote...

Didn't read most of the other posts, just replying to the OP.

Very interesting interpretation! See, this is part of why I like the endings--you can make sense of it how you see fit. Racism is definitely one of the themes in Mass Effect--racism against Humans, Batarians, Quarians, Krogan, and the Geth. And yes, there are definite Holocaust parallels in the Catalyst's logic.

We aren't supposed to see Starkid AI as a sympathetic character. He's arrogant, uses flawed premises (although it IS logical if you take the premises as true), and it is basically lording over the galaxy. We're supposed to HATE him. But to reject his logic, we have to pick the Destroy ending and truly get rid of the Reapers.

I don't think of the Destroy option as genocide per se. In WWII terms, it is the willful choice of the US to drop atomic bombs on Japan to stop the war even if thousands upon thousands of civilians would be killed. Was that wrong of the US to do? Hell yes! But the government at the time believed that it was the best way to end the war, collateral damage be damned. The Geth and EDI are the hapless Japanese people who suffered due to you basically nuking all Reaper tech (and the Geth and EDI have that...I believe if they didn't, they would not have been affected by the blast).

Control=play at being God. Synthesis=perform eugenics on the galaxy. Destroy=atomic bomb with massive collateral damage. It's a difficult decision, to be sure, and it's an interesting moral quandary.

Do you really believe the Crucible isn't able to kill just Reapers if it wants to? When it can make people cyborgs? It's a contrived choice created by Bioware to make the ending seem like a tough choice, when really it makes no sense. Players right now are doing what is called "rejecting the hypothetical." It means someone presents you with a hypothetical scenario and asks you to make a judgment on it, except the scenario doesn't make logical sense, so there's no reason to be forced to make a judgment about it.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 27 mars 2012 - 03:52 .

[Tony208]

Bronze65 wrote...

Can we get this stupid ass post locked?

Are you one of those who thought synthesis was beautiful?

[Jackal82]

Tony208 wrote...

Jackal82 wrote...
So I am saying just because you may have made connections that make sense that does not mean the argument is valid in anyway.

This part made me lol.

It's Bioware's fault, instead of giving a coherent ending, they're hiding behind artistic integrity and letting everyone speculate. They practically invited this. The OP's argument is completely valid and you can disagree if you want.

Have to agree that Bioware did leave to much open interruption that’s why we’re having debates like this but I was pointing out that if you dig deep enough you can make many connections. Is that not how the Indoctrination Theory came about?

[Mann42]

SandTrout wrote...

Hey, if they wanted the ending to be open to interpretation, this seems perfectly valid to me.

[Da Don Giovanni]

I fully support the OP, I'm Italian-American and the fact that there no Italians in the game is offensive.

And the control ending is insulting to all renegades, why didn't I become a Uber-Reaper and tell Harbinger to bow before me!?!??!

[xeNNN]

the ending being racist and offensive is just so fans can have LOTS OF SPECULATION.

(dear god its been done to death but i had to sorry :3 )

[babies8mydingo]

United_Strafes wrote...

Offensive of course (because some sort of monkey drunk on Jagermeister obviously wrote it), racist is left open to your own weird interpretation, not that racism is exactly the most horrible thing ever, some people have perfectly valid reasons for being racist, and some cultures based on backgrounds together have many reasons to hate each other. Just because you don't have it in your face in suburbia doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.

There are no valid reasons for racism ever. It exists, has existed and may always exist but that doesn't change the fact that it is inherently stupid and devisive. 

If you think racism is valid then you are accepting the premise that hating someone over an arbitrary racial difference is legitimate - that means you support or condone racism.

[ecarden]

Lots of problems on this thread, but the OP was interesting and explained a couple of the underlying problems that others have hit on too (though they usually refer to it as violating core themes of the game).

[Jackal82]

 
It pretty sad that the Bioware made ending so bad it has got us arguing if it is racist or not. Even if I disagreed with the OP starting to think if we promote this racist and genocide idea Bioware will be more willing change the ending completely.

[Ashilana]

NightHawkIL wrote...

forsaken gamer wrote...

And so far, anyone who actually read the OP instead of making snide comments generally agrees: Its message is that Prejudice is a justification for genocide. The emotion it evokes is disgust.

So the Catalyst's logic is disgusting.  And?

And there is no option to refuse it or even point that fact out. That forces the player to make a choice in which every option leaves them morally bankrupt. Hence, the ending supports a morally bankrupt and downright genocidal point of view.

It is interesting how many people react to the title and don't read the op (or many of the well reasoned responses) and thus miss this point entirely.  

[Ashilana]

Inujade wrote...

There is a certain truth to what the OP says. Consider that the final solutions come down to genocide (against all AI, including the geth, who can be helping you), control, and "make everybody the same."

That last one bothers me the most. In a series that has celebrated and encouraged tolerance, and emphasized that difference is not necessarily a threat, we have this ending where Shepard just accepts "Oh we're too different to ever get along. Better change everyone against their will."

I think many people were emotionally upset at the ending... but were unable to determine exactly why.   There is an interesting NYtimes review of a book that talks about the disconnect between moral judgements and our rationalizations for those judgements.  www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/books/review/the-righteous-mind-by-jonathan-haidt.html

[Ashilana]

Zkyire wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

Zkyire wrote...
He's a troll?

One does not have to rebuke someone's argument in order to disagree with it.

Ah. I see. So we should let your opinions trump real facts.

Let me offer an alternative: No. Stop wasting pople's time.

Holy crap.

You really can't take it can you.

Someone out there doesn't think the way you think and it's actually irritating you.

..wow.

Why post that you disagree with an idea... if you are not going to explain why?  Isn't that the essence of trolling. 

I think Zine2 has been very patient and responded with well reasoned responses to those who actually want to address the topic.

[Orthodox Infidel]

forsaken gamer wrote...

The players options don't have to adhere to being moral, though, regardless of how  unpalatable the choices and repercussions are.

Nobody claimed they did. You keep attacking this strawman as if it actually has anything to do with the argument made by the OP.

I read and disregard the premise of the op.  What it boils down to is self-righteousness.

This is an argument ad hominem.

Modifié par Orthodox Infidel, 27 mars 2012 - 05:00 .

[Ashilana]

So... this back and forth

Ashilana wrote...

N-Seven wrote...
I especially like how after 25 pages, the angry mob has now made a the link that 'Bioware is racist, and shares the Reaper's ideology'.       

And you disprove the ideas stated in the op with funny faces.  Interesting approach.

Perhaps give some more thought to how the child uses the word "solution" in reference to genocide, how synthesis is the closest thing to a happy ending... even though it forcibly alters all living beings, and how the closest thing most fans can find to a "good ending" is to wipe out an entire people they helped save multiple times.

Also, see if you can find the dialogue you get from Mordin's replacement.

led to

N-Seven wrote...
Nice, you're making a connection with the word 'solution' to the Holocaust and the extermination of Jews. 

And then you make the connection with 'synthesis' to 'solution'.   That's just grand.

Connection is not really the right word here.  No one can ever use the word solution when talking about wiping out large numbers of sentient people...and not have it be, at the very least, compared to the Holocaust.  If you disagree on this point, it makes it difficult to have a discussion.

N-Seven wrote...
If you can't see how patently ludicrous, mean-spirited, and juvenile it is to accuse Bioware of being 'racists who endorse genocide', because of the endingsa fictional AI character presents in a video game, I don't know what to say. 
Especially in a video game series where they encourage, (and reward) the player when he/she establishes relationships with other races, same-sex relationships, etc.   In short, the Mass Effect series, and other Bioware games like the Dragon Age series, are hippie-love fests.

This is part of the reason the ending is so out of place.  You are not given a choice in cooperating with the starchild.  Introducing a character at the end of the game who explains "how it is" and having to work with it... is forcing the player to agree with the starchild if they wish to end the game.

I don't doubt that they are very progressive on many topics, but the character that replaces Mordin in the game spouts a philosophy of social darwinism.  You are never allowed to contradict or question the evil that he suggests.  Everything he says supports the idea that the synthesis ending is great, no matter whether any life form would want to opt out of the transformation.

N-Seven wrote...
From previous posts you've made, you find synthesis to be the most horrible thing that could happen to a living being, because of how they don't have a choice in the matter.  In fact if I remember correctly, you feel it preferable that all life should be murdered by the Reapers instead, as if that was more 'dignified'.   Your dislike of this particular ending, which you DON'T have to choose, is coloring your views. 

It is one of three possible choices.  Three very poorly explained choices.  How someone can think being killed by process of their body being remade in someone else's image of perfection is any different than dying...I do not understand.  I would be interested in how you could describe synthesis as anything other than a type of violation or death.  I am serious here.  I am curious as to how this ending could be perceived in any other way.

N-Seven wrote...
Some grumbling at Bioware over unsatisfactory endings is expected, but concluding they are genocidal racists?

And you know what, as someone who has experienced genuine racism directed at him throughout his life, these accusations of racism are obscene.  Shameful and ridiculous.  People honestly need to grow up and move on.

They decided to include the character who replaces Mordin and to make him believe that Evolution is directional, and can be helped towards a better end result.  Many of the most horrific things done in the early part of the last century were done for these very reasons.  I do not know if you have studied evolution, but this view of evolution is NOT science.  It is a rationalization for the supremecy of one group over others.

Please do not assume that you are the only person who has experienced discrimination in your life.  Racism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, xenophobia (among other irrational hatreds) are all horrible things and very few people in this world manage to live their lives without being hurt by the fear and hatred of others.

[Ashilana]

forsaken gamer wrote...
Who said it was an argument? 

Well, when you straight out admit to trolling, that sure saves time.  Thank you. 

[Zine2]

N-Seven wrote...
Nice, you're making a connection with the word 'solution' to the Holocaust and the extermination of Jews.

You are aware that the Holocaust was referred to as "The Final Solution" by its instigators, yes?

Again, I find it exceedingly funny that people are whining about the comparisons to the Holocaust... and yet blatantly deny that the Star Child used almost the exact same terms to describe its on genocide. 

If you can't see how patently ludicrous, mean-spirited, and juvenile it is to accuse Bioware of being 'racists who endorse genocide', because of the endingsa fictional AI character presents in a video game, I don't know what to say.

I am not commenting on creator motive. I am commenting on what they actually produced. Mac Walters and Casey Hudson may not have meant to invoke the Holocaust when they wrote the ending, but again- using the word "Solution"? Really?

What the writers actually wrote and what the writers meant to write are two entirely seperate things. I am addressing the former. I don't really address the latter except to point out that it's irrelevant save for the fanboys wanting you to dismiss arguments because they're "mean" and "not nice" (which again shows they're not reading the OP - I said straight out this will not be nice) but completely unsupported by actual facts.

People hate the ending for a reason. People prefer an ending where they categorily reject the ending (specifically the Star Child) for a reason. I have explained why. Many people who actually read the OP agree and made them realize just how prejudiced and monstrous the Catalyst was - which they understood on an unconscious level but were unable to arrange into a coherent train of thought.

All I have done is to actually arrange those thoughts in a coherent manner, so if you're pissed that the train of thought leads to Space Auschwitz, I'm not the one to blame. I'm not the one who added the word "Solution" into the dialogue. I am not the one who chose to make the Reapers into an OMNOM race that literally consumed people to turn into warship components.

(Also, just a note on the people commenting on the terminology: I'm not really interested in debating whether there is a better term than "Racism". It could be "Xenophobia" or "Inter-species hate" or whatever. My main point remains simple: The Catalyst is basing its premise that people should be judged by their component parts rather than by their character. It is more important that you are made of protein or metal rather than you are a kind and compassionate person. This is why I keep referring to one of the great speeches of American lore - "I dream of a day when I am judged by the content of my character rather than the color of my skin".

The Catalyst's decision to make a dividing line between Organics and Synthetics is not a good thing. It is not a justifiable thing. It does not make genocide kosher.

It is prejudiced. It is spreading the ideology of hatred. It divides rather than unites. It betrays the very ideals of a game that makes you unite the races of the galaxy to save the galaxy.  

It is that simple.)

Modifié par Zine2, 27 mars 2012 - 05:08 .

[ArmaVirumqueCano]

Zine2 wrote...

You are now judged by your component parts - metal or protein - instead of the content of your character?

Where's that spitting-out-water smiley face when I need it?

This is either one of the greatest satirical lines ever writter in reference to the Mass Effect universe...

...or one of the most macaronically ridiculous things I've ever read.

Either way, well done!  

[Zine2]

ArmaVirumqueCano wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

You are now judged by your component parts - metal or protein - instead of the content of your character?

Where's that spitting-out-water smiley face when I need it?

This is either one of the greatest satirical lines ever writter in reference to the Mass Effect universe...

...or one of the most macaronically ridiculous things I've ever read.

Either way, well done!  

Actually, I'm dead serious. And I simply shrug at such mockery, and occassionally laugh at it. It only helps prove the point that anyone who actually likes the ending works for IGN - or should work for them.  

Modifié par Zine2, 27 mars 2012 - 05:11 .

[Ashilana]

forsaken gamer wrote...

Ashilana wrote...

forsaken gamer wrote...
Who said it was an argument? 

Well, when you straight out admit to trolling, that sure saves time.  Thank you. 

It's called a statement.  Thank you.

Statements are made to declare an intent (to do something) or a lack of intent (for example to declare that you will not interact with something).

Making a statement in a forum is an odd thing to do.  Forums are for other people to read and react to.  If your post was a statement... it is not something that is supposed to be responded to.

So, if you just post to make a statement... you are trolling.  You want a response, but you don't care what the response says... as long as you get noticed.

[Ashilana]

Zine2 wrote...

ArmaVirumqueCano wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

You are now judged by your component parts - metal or protein - instead of the content of your character?

Where's that spitting-out-water smiley face when I need it?

This is either one of the greatest satirical lines ever writter in reference to the Mass Effect universe...

...or one of the most macaronically ridiculous things I've ever read.

Either way, well done!  

Actually, I'm dead serious. And I simply shrug at such mockery, and occassionally laugh at it. It only helps prove the point that anyone who actually likes the ending works for IGN - or should work for them.  

We are moving in a direction in which more and more people have some synthetic parts.  I am sure most people (who live in countries with modern medicine) know a few people with replacement parts.  If we can judge a person by the parts they are made out of, instead of their character... we will find ourselves potentially treating some humans as things.  I hope this does not occur.

[Zine2]

forsaken gamer wrote...
It's called a statement.  Thank you.

Except that statements can be questioned. Which I did, and pointed out how wrong your statement was. You then backpedalled into saying "I'm not here to argue!"

So really, the only statement you've actually made is to admit your own cowadice. You are afraid to be questioned. You are afraid to actually have a discussion.

Hence, again, you are a waste of time.