1086 réponses à ce sujet

[Zine2]

forsaken gamer wrote...

That's right.  I read it and rejected it as self-righteous.  Dismissed it.

Uh, yes. Because "Self-righteousness" is an actual argument backed up by zero facts. Great "statement".

Here a hint for you: Your statement is nothing more than a clueless opinion. And it will remain such until you actually start a factual argument.

There is no law or rule that states that a fictional story needs to align itself with conventional principles or adhere to a litmus test.

Opening the story up to criticism does not preclude the fictional story from portraying anything.

Again, wrong. The artistic integrity card has been played. Bioware wants ME3's ending to be treated as art. Comparable to the ending of classical movies, according to one tweet even.

So despite your opinion (and it really just is an opinion), you remain an irrelevancy. Thank you for playing.

Modifié par Zine2, 27 mars 2012 - 05:21 .

[Orthodox Infidel]

Zine2 wrote...

N-Seven wrote...
Nice, you're making a connection with the word 'solution' to the Holocaust and the extermination of Jews.

You are aware that the Holocaust was referred to as "The Final Solution" by its instigators, yes?

Again, I find it exceedingly funny that people are whining about the comparisons to the Holocaust... and yet blatantly deny that the Star Child used almost the exact same terms to describe its on genocide. 

I'd like to point out that througout the game, EDI will talk about things the Reapers are doing on Earth. She tells a story about how camps have been established to detain and process people. She mentions people trying to resist the Reapers and how the Reapers attempt to encourage people to betray each other for rewards, like delaying execution. These are fairly standard Holocaust-allusion tropes.

Given that Bioware made obvious allusions to the Holocaust earlier in the game, it is not silly to assume that they're doing it the ending. Whether they intended to or not, they have set that association up.

[Zine2]

Tim_H wrote...

I didn't interpret the ending as being sympathetic toward genocide--genocide walks hand in hand with demonizing a group of people and the ending didn't employ those sentiments.

However, I did see the "anti-technology" slant that other posters here mentioned. The information presented to me by the ending struck me as quasi-mystical, that Ray Kurtzweil "futurism" that asserts it is inevitable that humans synthesize with machines ("the singularity").

The reason why I tend to term it genocide rather than simply "anti-technology" is because we're not dealing with just machines. We're dealing with sentient machines - and as you say there is an incredible amount of humanization that was applied to them.

Which is why when the Catalyst claims that Organics and Synthetics are hardwired to kill one another (or Creator vs Created), I do not see it as "Man vs Machine" or "humanity vs technology". I see it as the Catalyst actively demonizing entire races (Humans, Geth, Quarian, etc) based on their component parts.

Again, the purpose of this thread is to show why people are mad at the ending. You can't get something like 90% "Don't Like!" by simply delving into an esoteric topic like "humanity vs technology". That's not a real world issue. It's not really attacking the core values of actual players.

By contrast, telling people that you should let your paranoid prejudices justify mass-murder (which is what the Catalyst does) is something that people are not onboard with. Forcing them to go along with the mass-murderer only adds to the sense of utter betrayal, and thus the yearning for an ending wherein the answer it to REJECT the Catalyst entirely.

[Smeffects]

Grand Duchy of Robonia, is that you?

[Zine2]

forsaken gamer wrote...
Citation?  Where is the rule or law? It doesn't exist. 

Fine, because you keep repeating this lie, let me explain to people what it actually is.

This is just you employing the age-old liar's trick known as the loaded question.

"Tell me, when did you murder your wife?"

It's so pathetically sad that it's funny.

=====

For a more comprehensive explanation to the people who are enjoying forsaken_gamer make a fool of himself:

He thinks that I am arguing that art should conform to certain rules, and that I should therefore cite the rule or law stating this.

He is either lying (very likely) or an idiot (also likely) because I never actually made that assertion.

What I am instead doing is to do a critical analysis of an existing piece of an artwork. I am commenting on what the art is. I am not saying what it should be, except to say that people are right to be pissed off.
 
But no, he keeps asking the same loaded question - which presumes a statement that I never actually made or supported.

TL;DR: Critical artistic analysis is not limited by non-existent rules that forsaken_gamer keeps trying to invent; particularly rules that were never even proposed by the OP.

But hey, again, blindlingly obvious who reads the OP or not.

Modifié par Zine2, 27 mars 2012 - 05:40 .

[Ashilana]

Zine2 wrote...

This is just you employing the age-old liar's trick known as the loaded question.

"Tell me, when did you murder your wife?"

It's so pathetically sad that it's funny.

On the bright side he keeps bumping this thread so more people see the original post. 

[Zine2]

Ashilana->

LOL.

True. He is at least fulfilling a useful purpose.

[Zine2]

forsaken gamer wrote...

Zine2 wrote...
TL;DR: Critical artistic analysis is not limited by non-existent rules that forsaken_gamer keeps trying to invent.

Neither is storytelling.  It's a two way road.

Not even close to what I was talking about. Again, keep firing away with your loaded questions. "So when did you murder your wife again?"

[Apollo Taren]

Wow, I never thought about it that way, but it's right on the mark. You make a lot of good points, and it makes sense. And for those people saying "it's just a game" or anything along those lines, you could say that about anything. "Oh, ni**er is just a word! Oh, Mein Kampf is just a book!" Unfortunately, that thought process is exactly what brought Hitler to power. Am I saying the Bioware devs are intentionally racist? Of course not, but I am saying that not realizing you're being racist, yet doing so all the same, is not a good thing by any means and ends up leading to exactly the kind of issues that are caused by being intentionally racist.

It's a bit of a different situation here since we as a society aren't used to thinking of robots as being a race, much less existing in the first place, but I'm pretty sure that's a big part of the mistake the Quarians made when they tried to exterminate the Geth. "Oh, they're just robots!"

Modifié par Apollo Taren, 27 mars 2012 - 05:45 .

[Ashilana]

Zine2 wrote...

Ashilana->

LOL.

True. He is at least fulfilling a useful purpose.

Darn, now he knows... he might stop.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Ashilana wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

This is just you employing the age-old liar's trick known as the loaded question.

"Tell me, when did you murder your wife?"

It's so pathetically sad that it's funny.

On the bright side he keeps bumping this thread so more people see the original post. 

This is true, but that means we're also going to see more "RACE CARD!" posts.

[Iconoclaste]

Is there any good reason to kill other than accidentally in legitimate defense?

We are the ones taking the first step by playing a "game", or "many games" where killing becomes an habit. We do so because in certain reasonings, it became trivial in the real world. But the fact is there : we do not try everything we can to avoid it, but we do a lot to try to justify it.

We're all doomed by this, O my brothers and sisters. So let's try not to go further down the slope.

Love you all.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 27 mars 2012 - 05:56 .

[Cheep Cheep Cheep]

By the title I thought this was going to be a troll post, but then I actually read it.

Very well argued, sire. I can see your point, and I think it is a valid interpretation. I doubt this is what the writers intended, but in fact this is what they produced, possibly in their attempt to be "deep". But really, I still have no idea WHAT they were thinking.

[Tony208]

forsaken gamer wrote...

Zine2 wrote...
What I am instead doing is to do a critical analysis of an existing piece of an artwork. I am commenting on what the art is. I am not saying what it should be, except to say that people are right to be pissed off.

Like I said earlier, it translates to: "I am butthurt".

And I am done.  Good day, or night.

You know someone lost an argument and lost badly when they resort to that.

[Zine2]

forsaken gamer wrote...

Zine2 wrote...
What I am instead doing is to do a critical analysis of an existing piece of an artwork. I am commenting on what the art is. I am not saying what it should be, except to say that people are right to be pissed off.

Like I said earlier, it translates to: "I am butthurt".

LOL. Sure, I suppose all critics are guilty of that.

But then again, you're a critic too. So all your whining about my criticisms? "I am butthurt".

And at least my butthurt attempts to be as insightful as possible by stating actual facts and putting them together as part of a coherent whole. In fact, I am proud of my butthurt.

Modifié par Zine2, 27 mars 2012 - 06:04 .

[Iconoclaste]

When people want blood, any blood will do. Color is irrelevant.

[Starchs]

SandTrout wrote...

Hey, if they wanted the ending to be open to interpretation, this seems perfectly valid to me.

^

[Zine2]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Is there any good reason to kill other than accidentally in legitimate defense?

We are the ones taking the first step by playing a "game", or "many games" where killing becomes an habit. We do so because in certain reasonings, it became trivial in the real world. But the fact is there : we do not try everything we can to avoid it, but we do a lot to try to justify it.

We're all doomed by this, O my brothers and sisters. So let's try not to go further down the slope.

Love you all.

Well, to your point...

I generally try not to get into the morality/immorality of killing in video games. Because there is an awful lot of killing in video games. And I have said previously, in most cases "It's just a game" is a valid argument. It's not as fun to think of Mario as a mass-murdering plumber who slaughters endagered turtles.

But like I have also said, when a game attempts to portray itself as art, then it must be held to a higher standard. Ico is a game frequently cited as a game that comes close to being art - and yet it involves no killing by the main character. Instead, its central mechanics is about saving another person. It is a gigantic escort mission - the sort video gamers usually hate - and yet it's pulled off so well that it has become art.

Or how about Shadow of the Colossus? When Roger Ebert once famously declared that "video games cannot be art", he was buried by rebuttals, and this was the one game he mentioned when he finally admitted that "maybe games can be art". And again, it doesn't portray killing as a casual thing. People have seriously decided not to finish the game because they couldn't bear to kill any more of the Colossus - despite the sheer triumph of being able to pull it off.

Most video games are just that. Games. They don't have a deeper meaning. They are a mechanic to test your mouse-aiming skills and keyboard dancing. But when a game tries to be art, it has to be more than just a string of sentences put together that suspiciously sound like they were cribbed off Mein Kampf.

[N-Seven]

Zine2 wrote...

N-Seven wrote...
Nice, you're making a connection with the word 'solution' to the Holocaust and the extermination of Jews.

You are aware that the Holocaust was referred to as "The Final Solution" by its instigators, yes?

Again, I find it exceedingly funny that people are whining about the comparisons to the Holocaust... and yet blatantly deny that the Star Child used almost the exact same terms to describe its on genocide.

Yes, of course I am aware of the term 'The Final Solution', and I was rolling my eyes reading this thread.

Here's the thing. You had a purpose when creating this thread.  You're playing this race/genocide card, throwing around 'Mein Kampf', and making these connections. We have a term used fleetingly in this game, you've grabbed a hold of it, and in spectacular and provocative fashion, are using it to draw parallels to some of the worst, most senstive events in recent human history, to rally your mob and and voice your displeasure with the ending.
 
And the stance you have apparantly taken, is that your displeasure lies on moral grounds, and not a problem with closure, loose ends, or loopholes, which are the real issues.

The purpose of this thread? It's inflammatory and non-constructive. If you haven't noticed already, people are angry enough. Turning it into an race thing? Holocaust parallels?  Yeah, not a positive contribution to this community.

And it pisses me off. The Holocaust, though a topic that should be discussed in more suitable environments, shouldn't be brought up in some video game forum, as ammo, in yet another attempt to demonize or villainize a company, because some people didn't like the ending to their game.

It's bloody shameful and disgusting actually, which is further magnified by your supposed indignation, and this thread has no constructive purpose.

The existence of this thread...that someone would button-push, bandy about real-world race and genocide cards while on a soap box, in what is essentially a whine-thread, a troll-thread, is cheap, disgraceful, and requires considerable gall. 

This thread is more offensive than the endings were, and I hated the endings.

Video game endings.  This is about a space-opera video game ending.

I'm out of this thread because I refuse to bump it.  If you want to continue this, PM me.

Modifié par N-Seven, 27 mars 2012 - 06:11 .

[Iconoclaste]

Do not condemn if you do not wish to be condemned. Show the way to the ones who don't see. Give to the needy, and forgive thousands of times. If you have time left after all that, rest in peace.Or enjoy a good killing spree in a good video game, even one with a bad ending.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 27 mars 2012 - 06:20 .