1086 réponses à ce sujet

[Zine2]

N-Seven wrote...

Here's the thing. You had a purpose when creating this thread. 

Yeah, and if you actually read the OP it's to explain WHY people are angry at the ending.

Even without my post, people will still be pissed off at the ending.

I am not rallying a mob. I am explaining why the mob is angry. Over 90% of the people didn't like the ending even before I got here.

So again, if you're mad at the parallels, don't be angry at me. I did not inflame anything. I have merely done what Bioware asked - "Look at our deep and meaningful and artistic ending!"

I am merely giving voice to the people who said "It still sucks!" as a response to the above question, but were unable to form a coherent argument about it.
 

The purpose of this thread? It's inflammatory and non-constructive. If you haven't noticed already, people are angry enough. Turning it into an race thing? Holocaust parallels?  Yeah, not a positive contribution to this community.

If you hadn't noticed, the vast majority of posts aside from snide "Race Card" remarks are "Oh, thanks, I finally got it!".

There have been a tiny few who have advocated sending this to Fox News, but I didn't even have to raise a finger before people sensibly told them "That's not a good idea".

So I not only do I reject your premise, I find it laughable. Constructive criticism is not always nice. In fact, very many of the greatest artists have questioned if there is any value to constructive criticism at all.

A true artist wants to hear the truth about their artwork; not sugary platitudes with a pinch of "But, you could improve this little part here!"

And it pisses me off. The damned Holocaust, though a topic that should be discussed in more suitable environments, shouldn't be brought up in some video game forum, as ammo, in yet another attempt to demonize or villainize a company, because some people didn't like the ending to their game.

Actually, aside from the parallels, I have not even really discussed the Holocaust at great lengths. If you think this is a "discussion" of the Holocaust, then I'm guessing you're gonna be utterly overwhelmed when I get to the nature of crimes against humanity, the precedents at Nuremberg, the failure to adhere to these precedents, and the rather bleak assessment of being able to prevent future genocides.

But hey, you already think this is a Holocaust discussion just because the fact "Final Solution", the use of body parts as furniture, and reference of Mein Kampf have been invoked?

I would say that your understanding of the gravity of real-world issues would be rather shallow then, I'm afraid.

Video game endings. FFS.  This is about a bloody space-opera video game ending

"Art", not video games.

 If you want to continue this, PM me.

No, I'm done talking with you too. You were just being silly.

Modifié par Zine2, 27 mars 2012 - 06:33 .

[Iconoclaste]

Let's not forget the holocaust is already more than 65 years old, a man's life! Many among the younger don't know the significance of these events, many don't even know the reasons we have holydays. I assume any mistakes in this sad field would be due to simple ignorance of past history, nothing directed or intentional.

[Zine2]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Or enjoy a good killing spree in a good video game, even one with a bad ending.

If I wanted to a simple killing spree, I would have played Warhammer 40K.

Nothing beats a setting that can take nine billion dead in one hour and still keep on fighting in that regard.

[Zine2]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Let's not forget the holocaust is already more than 65 years old, a man's life! Many among the younger don't know the significance of these events, many don't even know the reasons we have holydays. I assume any mistakes in this sad field would be due to simple ignorance of past history, nothing directed or intentional.

I said quite a few times that I am not commenting on whether or not it's deliberate. However, I will note that material regarding this subject is still quite widespread in all kinds of media. Schindler's List in particular was made just over a decade ago for instance. Whether it slipped in consciously or unconsciously during the writing process we'll never really know - but I suspect the writers would have been exposed to all of this media.

[Bill Casey]

I definitely got this vibe...
After everything I went through with the Geth and EDI, it was pretty messed up that I couldn't defend them...

Also, if the ending is taken at face value, we're only supposed to care that the human race survived...
Screw what happened to everyone else... Here's Buzz Aldrin...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 27 mars 2012 - 06:40 .

[Vakarian89]

what i dont understand (not trying to be a **** or anything) is why is this so bad? maybe if you where playing as the reapers killing all organics then yes i get it but the whole thing is about u trying to stop the Reapers from doing this and the new options you choose from prevent this from continuing... well except the destroy one which apperantly kills al the geth and EDI, but whose to say starboy didnt just say that to save his own skin? still i wouldve liked the option to call Harbinger who i choose to believe IS the AI on his BS before flipping him off and continuing to destroy the reapers

[Zine2]

Vakarian89 wrote...

what i dont understand (not trying to be a **** or anything) is why is this so bad? maybe if you where playing as the reapers killing all organics then yes i get it but the whole thing is about u trying to stop the Reapers from doing this and the new options you choose from prevent this from continuing... well except the destroy one which apperantly kills al the geth and EDI, but whose to say starboy didnt just say that to save his own skin? still i wouldve liked the option to call Harbinger who i choose to believe IS the AI on his BS before flipping him off and continuing to destroy the reapers

Because people don't want to be forced to work for a monster. If you accept the premise that the Catalyst is a war criminal, then all of your choices in the end come from a war criminal.

It's like the Allies winning World War 2, but Hitler gets to dictate the terms of the "victory".

That's why "Reject the Catalyst, discard the Crucible, and put all your hope in the alliance you forged" is the most popular alternate ending. A lot of people are going to die. But at least in this ending, people stood for the values of universal understanding and goodwill. Friendships matter. Different races can put aside their differences and work together. The impossible can become possible if we set aside petty prejudices.

In short, it is making a moral statement. "We are stronger together", not because "God/Star Child/Space Hitler said so".

Unfortunately, all that is discarded once the writers forced you to get your only options from what is essentially Robot Space Hitler.

Modifié par Zine2, 27 mars 2012 - 06:57 .

[Nightdragon8]

Well it is. With every Reaper killed, it was another galactic civ that was ate up and transformed into another Reaper. So really your committing mass murder on a whole nother scale... But in all fairness I dont care, they are trying to kill me and take away "my freewill" I have the right to defend myself.

There was plenty of times they could have explained themselves. 1 on Virmire, but it gave an attitude of "Your too stupid to know why I do this" Then the next is in Mass Effect 2, with Harby only saying how he wants to help you buy "Ascending." and at the end of Arival. We get the "you are worthless, but an annoyance speech" Then we have ME3 with the one on Quarian homeworld, And all it has to say is "You are too stupid" and then a one-liner about "Stopping the chaos" Then at the end of the game we get the whole "Troll logic" of why they are doing what they are doing.

So while you can call it racisum it also isn't they didn't even try to communicate so in that regaid screw them. THey wanna fight lets fight, and if you push me up against the wall, and i have to make a big device to kill everyone of them I will do it. Because they dont have the right to kill me for no good reason.

[fle6isnow]

Zine2 wrote...

Vakarian89 wrote...

what i dont understand (not trying to be a **** or anything) is why is this so bad? maybe if you where playing as the reapers killing all organics then yes i get it but the whole thing is about u trying to stop the Reapers from doing this and the new options you choose from prevent this from continuing... well except the destroy one which apperantly kills al the geth and EDI, but whose to say starboy didnt just say that to save his own skin? still i wouldve liked the option to call Harbinger who i choose to believe IS the AI on his BS before flipping him off and continuing to destroy the reapers

Because people don't want to be forced to work for a monster. If you accept the premise that the Catalyst is a war criminal, then all of your choices in the end come from a war criminal.

It's like the Allies winning World War 2, but Hitler gets to dictate the terms of the "victory".

That's why "Reject the Catalyst, discard the Crucible, and put all your hope in the alliance you forged" is the most popular alternate ending. A lot of people are going to die. But at least in this ending, people stood for the values of universal understanding and goodwill. Friendships matter. Different races can put aside their differences and work together. The impossible can become possible if we set aside petty prejudices.

In short, it is making a moral statement. "We are stronger together", not because "God/Star Child/Space Hitler said so".

Unfortunately, all that is discarded once the writers forced you to get your only options from what is essentially Robot Space Hitler.

I disagree about the interpretation of the Destroy ending--like I mentioned earlier, in WWII terms I think it can be interpreted more like the US nuking Japan to end the war. There was a huge number of civilian casualties as collateral damage, but it ended the war. In the same way, Destroy lets you nuke the Reapers and end the war, but at the cost of the Geth and EDI as collateral damage. It's still a horrid choice to sacrifice your allies like that, but do you invoke the ruthless calculus of war and kill off the Geth to save everyone else?

It's still a crappy choice, yes, but collateral damage vs. "Godkid says so!" makes all the difference.

[Vakarian89]

Zine2 wrote...

Vakarian89 wrote...

what i dont understand (not trying to be a **** or anything) is why is this so bad? maybe if you where playing as the reapers killing all organics then yes i get it but the whole thing is about u trying to stop the Reapers from doing this and the new options you choose from prevent this from continuing... well except the destroy one which apperantly kills al the geth and EDI, but whose to say starboy didnt just say that to save his own skin? still i wouldve liked the option to call Harbinger who i choose to believe IS the AI on his BS before flipping him off and continuing to destroy the reapers

Because people don't want to be forced to work for a monster. If you accept the premise that the Catalyst is a war criminal, then all of your choices in the end come from a war criminal.

It's like the Allies winning World War 2, but Hitler gets to dictate the terms of the "victory".

That's why "Reject the Catalyst, discard the Crucible, and put all your hope in the alliance you forged" is the most popular alternate ending. A lot of people are going to die. But at least in this ending, people stood for the values of universal understanding and goodwill. Friendships matter. Different races can put aside their differences and work together. The impossible can become possible if we set aside petty prejudices.

In short, it is making a moral statement. "We are stronger together", not because "God/Star Child/Space Hitler said so".

Unfortunately, all that is discarded once the writers forced you to get your only options from what is essentially Robot Space Hitler.

ok i see wat u mean, one of the first things that i think really clicked with me throughout the game was how as shepard u where going around the galaxy playing peace maker bringing peace to the geth and quarriansand the geth quickly offer to assist them settle back on rannoch despite them almost wiping them out not 10 minutes before and seeing the krogan, turains and even salarians settle thier differences to work together against a greater evil coupled with Mordin, a salarian who had once stood by the genophage, sacrifice himself so that the krogan could have a future. it was all powerful and amazing stuff to watch. the entire game promoted universal understanding and the ending does pretty much throw it out the window

[Vakarian89]

fle6isnow wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

Vakarian89 wrote...

what i dont understand (not trying to be a **** or anything) is why is this so bad? maybe if you where playing as the reapers killing all organics then yes i get it but the whole thing is about u trying to stop the Reapers from doing this and the new options you choose from prevent this from continuing... well except the destroy one which apperantly kills al the geth and EDI, but whose to say starboy didnt just say that to save his own skin? still i wouldve liked the option to call Harbinger who i choose to believe IS the AI on his BS before flipping him off and continuing to destroy the reapers

Because people don't want to be forced to work for a monster. If you accept the premise that the Catalyst is a war criminal, then all of your choices in the end come from a war criminal.

It's like the Allies winning World War 2, but Hitler gets to dictate the terms of the "victory".

That's why "Reject the Catalyst, discard the Crucible, and put all your hope in the alliance you forged" is the most popular alternate ending. A lot of people are going to die. But at least in this ending, people stood for the values of universal understanding and goodwill. Friendships matter. Different races can put aside their differences and work together. The impossible can become possible if we set aside petty prejudices.

In short, it is making a moral statement. "We are stronger together", not because "God/Star Child/Space Hitler said so".

Unfortunately, all that is discarded once the writers forced you to get your only options from what is essentially Robot Space Hitler.

I disagree about the interpretation of the Destroy ending--like I mentioned earlier, in WWII terms I think it can be interpreted more like the US nuking Japan to end the war. There was a huge number of civilian casualties as collateral damage, but it ended the war. In the same way, Destroy lets you nuke the Reapers and end the war, but at the cost of the Geth and EDI as collateral damage. It's still a horrid choice to sacrifice your allies like that, but do you invoke the ruthless calculus of war and kill off the Geth to save everyone else?

It's still a crappy choice, yes, but collateral damage vs. "Godkid says so!" makes all the difference.

well yea with the destroy ending u get the sense that "ok u can go ahead with your original plan and just kill all the reapers BUT this is the price your gonna pay" there just HAD to be a catch all along huh? i just find it funny that the only option that involves the reapers actually destuction is also the only one with a consequence along with losing your own life

[Zine2]

forsaken gamer wrote...
Not only self-righteious, but it also sounded to me like you were advocating censorship because you didn't like the emotion it evoked or the message that it sent. 

Again, you're mistaking artistic criticism with demands for censorship.

Saying "It is a bad ending because it goes against well-established universal values" is not the same as "All endings must only stick to well-established universal values".

Artistic criticisms means you analyze a work beyond the surface and compare and contrast it with reality and other workds of art. If the work is contrary to well-established universal values, then it is a valid criticism particularly if the rest of the artwork promotes these universal values. ME3's ending fails in this regard. They want you to unite the galaxy (including Synthetics and Organics) and then buy into this "Synthetic vs Organic" nonesense at the end.

By contrast, take the example of Warhammer 40K. It is a setting wherein the universal values I mentioned are not only rejected; they virtually don't exist. "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war". Genocide is commonplace and expected. War is the answer to everything. Aliens are not potential allies, but threats to be destroyed.

And the setting has gotten flak for being so absurdly grim dark (again, a valid criticism). But surprisingly, some of the best Warhammer 40K "art" (particularly Dan Abnett novels) actually manage to take advantage of the setting's grim outlook to make stories that are more poignant and even uplifting by showing the human reactions (particularly heroic reactions) to such barbarity. As Abnett summed it up with his pithy reply to the setting's premise:

In the grim darkness of the far future there is more than war. There are people there too.

[BigNastE]

Waiting for Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to catch wind of this just because it has racist in the title.

[Zine2]

fle6isnow wrote...

I disagree about the interpretation of the Destroy ending--like I mentioned earlier, in WWII terms I think it can be interpreted more like the US nuking Japan to end the war. There was a huge number of civilian casualties as collateral damage, but it ended the war. In the same way, Destroy lets you nuke the Reapers and end the war, but at the cost of the Geth and EDI as collateral damage. It's still a horrid choice to sacrifice your allies like that, but do you invoke the ruthless calculus of war and kill off the Geth to save everyone else?

It's still a crappy choice, yes, but collateral damage vs. "Godkid says so!" makes all the difference.

The fundamental issue isn't the collateral damage. This is why I did not even bother to address the three "options"

It's that you only win because "God / Space Hitler" lets you.

It isn't like the United States nuking Japan. It's Japan handing the United States an atomic bomb, and then telling them "We are completely justified in slaughtering countless people. But because you made it to our Emperor's Throne room we give you this uber-powerful weapon, and you must choose one of the three choices _we_ have decided for you to remake the world."

That's a completely meaningless "victory" for most players, simply because you're forced to follow the plans of a war criminal and it completely ignores the millions of other guys who fought with you.

Winning is not about making it to some Brat AI's Throne Room and having it (in effect) congratulate you that you're a credit to your race.

[Zine2]

BigNastE wrote...

Waiting for Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to catch wind of this just because it has racist in the title.

Funnily, most of my friends would describe me as being on the opposite side of the politial spectrum and find those two rather silly for their use of the Race Card.

[Edje Edgar]

Vakarian89 wrote...

well yea with the destroy ending u get the sense that "ok u can go ahead with your original plan and just kill all the reapers BUT this is the price your gonna pay" there just HAD to be a catch all along huh? i just find it funny that the only option that involves the reapers actually destuction is also the only one with a consequence along with losing your own life

It still requires you to accept the premise of the starchild, which you are taught should be considered evil. The only moral choice would be to make no choice at all. The fact that Shephard is forced to go along with Starchilds retarded logic is what many people hate about the ending.

[Deschi]

Well, OP if you interpret the given allegories in this way I think you just should choose the red ending and your war criminal is punished...

[av196vad]

The ending wasn't racist. You humans are all racist!

[Petrikles]

Yes. I wonder why all the news and gaming magazines did not get it. The ending definitely has strong tones of racism, which borders on the unacceptable. And Shepard is given no other option as to play along these lines. I don´t get it why they complain about naked bodies in ME1, but this issue totally escapes them.

You can easily prove this thesis by replacing the word "organic" by "white people" and the word "synthetic" by "black people". I was really shocked when I finally came to realize this.

Maybe the synthesis ending symbolizes the way out of this predicament, by symbolizing the merging of cultures which ultimately eliminates racism. But the context seems plain wrong, as it is placed a forced upon sollution, and it also removes cultural differences as a whole. Again, this is something which leans strongly to the philosophy of racism. I am scared, now.

Modifié par Kailord, 27 mars 2012 - 09:02 .

[Edje Edgar]

Deschi wrote...

Well, OP if you interpret the given allegories in this way I think you just should choose the red ending and your war criminal is punished...

No not at all. You still accept his premise and carry out his 'solution'.

[Flextt]

SwobyJ wrote...

So wait, I just butted in, but is OP saying the ending is BAD if it is racist?

Damn, it would be GOOD. It would show that the Catalyst is inherantly biased towards all organics, and the options he gives you are faulty and lies. I LOVE that idea. Pick destroy.

^ this.
Art that wants to be successful usually aims to conform to moral principles. And a moral principle like "don't judge and wipe out somebody because he looks different" isn't exactly a wrong and far-fetched one. In itself, art elevates a human from animal. Why behave like an animal even if you do create and enjoy art?

OP, you have a point. It is quite the radical interpretation, but yes, genocide is in fact the consequence of all choices for all we know due to millions stranded in the Sol System.

[Maias227]

Wtf

[Baronesa]

Maias227 wrote...

Wtf

I recomend to READ the entire OP, before commenting and simply reading the title.