1086 réponses à ce sujet

[Cazlee]

@Zine2

The blue option ends all condoned genocide. Organics live, synthetics live, even the reapers are allowed a continued existence. The blue option ends the cycle of genocide and puts the choice for peace back in the hands of the galactic civilization.

I don't agree that the premise is racist. The potential problem with synthetics, and I'll use the geth as an example, is that even though the geth are subservient right now, they have been upgraded with reaper tech to become vastly more intelligent than any of their quarian creators. A rhetorical question: how long do you think it will take for them to lose respect for their creators and realize that they are superior beings? And what would be the outcome? You say that the catalyst's premise is false, but the truth is that we can't determine whether it is true or false. The prothean VI has some interesting insight on the reapers. He acknowledges that there may be a force in the galaxy that intends on galactic annihilation, and the reapers are only servants of the patterns that emerge with time. Depending on how you interpret this information, it can give credence to the catalyst's premise, or it could be talking about the catalyst.

Prothean VI: Our studies of past ages led us to believe that time is cylcical. Many patterns repeat.

Shepard: Like the reaper attacks.

Prothean VI: And beyond. The same peaks of evolution, the same valleys of dissolution. The same conflicts are expressed in every cycle, but in a different manner. The repetition is too prevalent to be merely chance.

Liara: We assumed the Reapers were responsible for the pattern.

Prothean VI: Perhaps. Though I believe the Reapers are only servants of the pattern. They are not its master.

Shepard: So who is the master?

Prothean VI: Unknown. Its presence is inferred rather than observed. The only certainty is its intention... galactic annihilation. You now stand at that precipice.

Modifié par Cazlee, 28 mars 2012 - 02:57 .

[Mavaras]

Modifié par Mavaras, 28 mars 2012 - 03:09 .

[Ravenmyste]

i think some one needs a nap or a good smoke or something, there was nothing racist about the endings that can be compared to the endings, yes it did seem that the catalyst was playing a doomsday always happen to organics and synthetics that will always turn on each but shep tried to show that was not the case with the dying reaper who said that war between geth and quarians was being as used a proof of course, he didn't see that they actually got along for a bit and some of the quarians was actually try to help them live..

so the proof of them turning on each after they gained self awareness wasn't really proof to say that they could live together but they was in fact using what they saw as way to show something as the war was irrefutable evidence that they couldn't live together

[Petrikles]

Cazlee wrote...
...
I don't agree that the premise is racist. The potential problem with synthetics, and I'll use the geth as an example, is that even though the geth are subservient right now, they have been upgraded with reaper tech to become vastly more intelligent than any of their quarian creators. A rhetorical question: how long do you think it will take for them to lose respect for their creators and realize that they are superior beings? And what would be the outcome? You say that the catalyst's premise is false, but the truth is that we can't determine whether it is true or false.
...

You are walking a thin line, here. Do you realize that this argument of yours already borders on racism philosophy? The catalyst says, a certain somnatic group will in the end always try to eradicate another. Regardless if the catalyst statements are true or false, it is racism, either by the catalyst, or by the somnatic group which tries to eradicate the other.
If you assume that VI are not "people", even though the story presents them with insight, feelings and free will, then, too, this is exactly how racism discriminates other ethnis or somatic groups; they are believed to be "inferior" resp. not on the same level of "value" as the other group.

The point is, no matter how you want to see it, the story forces you to acknowledge racism as a kind of "law of nature", and forces you to react with racism to it by only offering genocide or enslavement of the "VI races" as a "solution".

Edit: If you see this imo consequent interpretation, and you read some articles which justify the endings "artistic integrity" by stating that, in general, life is not all happy endings and rainbows... well let´s just say "cynism" is a too soft word to describe what is happening, here.

Modifié par Kailord, 28 mars 2012 - 08:55 .

[Cazlee]

I understand that AI are self aware and are people, but I was attempting to illustrate why the catalyst could be correct. The thing is, when you encounter an entity as old as the catalyst it's probably wise to heed its warnings. The geth should never have been created, but it's too late now. They have upgraded themselves to be super intelligent and they will only get smarter and smarter with each upgrade. They don't have the same limitations as organics... eventually they will be superior in every way. Legion does mention that the geth are building a reaper-like structure in mass effect 2, and with increased intelligence the geth will be able to "imagine new futures." Just something to think about.
It's not that much different from the fear of mages you see in the dragon age series.

There is racism throughout the game, but Shepard never has to be racist. Again, the blue option ends all condoned genocide. Organics live, synthetics live, even the reapers are allowed a continued existence.

Modifié par Cazlee, 28 mars 2012 - 09:41 .

[Iwillbeback]

The whole game is.
The Reapers only want perfection, they dump the trash.

[hireuin]

forget the catalyst and think of the crucible.

it has been created over many millenia by countless generations trying to stop the reapers.

but they somehow knew that to get it to work they had to 'plug' into the catalyst - because somehow they knew there were essentially three 'i win' buttons above the control room that needed 'powering up'.

Modifié par hireuin, 28 mars 2012 - 09:37 .

[Eain]

Basically the entire plot comes down to this:

Every decade the Grand Wizard of the KKK sends deathsquads to scour American villages of life if these villages are home to liberals enabling black people to have a place in society. He is convinced that black people will eventually take over America and outbreed white people and then the white race will be gone forever.

You are the liberal being tasked with stopping these deathsquads, and at the end of the story you meet the Grand Wizard who says "fine, liberals are apparently stronger than I thought because you have made it to my offices as the first liberal ever. I am now giving you three choices. In the first you will take command of my deathsquads and then they will do as you please. Good luck making friends. The second option is you will destroy my deathsquads but doing so also automatically destroys all black people, haha isn't that brilliant. The third option is synthesis whereby you will forge all black and white life together into some sort of fusion, which is now suddenly an option despite the fact that I could have always allowed for this to happen by not killing people who interbreed. If you choose this option there will be no more war forever because everyone has the same skin colour."

No matter what option you choose the unfortunate conclusion drawn from the premise is that the writers think that people wage war because they have different skincolours, and that they have built a story around the blatantly racist assumption that black people are out to destroy white people and that white people must defend their race's survival using rather extreme means.

Modifié par Eain, 28 mars 2012 - 09:55 .

[Petrikles]

Cazlee wrote...
...
There is racism throughout the game, but Shepard never has to be racist. Again, the blue option ends all condoned genocide. Organics live, synthetics live, even the reapers are allowed a continued existence.

Then you have your own interpretation of the "blue ending". This ending is commonly regarded as enslaving the reapers as tools of your own. But yes, you could assume that the only control shepard exercises is making them leave the galaxy alone (btw, reminds me of the ending of Diablo I). But most see it as doing the same as TIM does.

Modifié par Kailord, 28 mars 2012 - 10:08 .

[Irx]

I don't really see this whole organics vs. synthetics as a primary conflict in ME at all.

We have rachni wars, krogan rebellions, batarians, yahg, terminus systems...

Geth are almost hippies, aside from a bunch of indoctrinated heretics who never did much damage anyway. Even the reapers - as that star boy (who is likely a VI of some long dead civilization) tells us, they created them for the sole purpose of destroying organics - thus they never rebelled and are doing exactly the thing they are designed for, and are not even intelligent, since he controls them.

[Cazlee]

Kailord wrote...

Cazlee wrote...
...
There is racism throughout the game, but Shepard never has to be racist. Again, the blue option ends all condoned genocide. Organics live, synthetics live, even the reapers are allowed a continued existence.

Then you have your own interpretation of the "blue ending". This ending is commonly regarded as enslaving the reapers as tools of your own. But yes, you could assume that the only control shepard exercises is making them leave the galaxy alone (btw, reminds me of the ending of Diablo I). But most see it as doing the same as TIM does.

They're right, it is exactly what TIM wanted... but Shepard isn't TIM. I have faith that my Shepard will never allow the reapers to harvest another civilization again. She sacrificed her life to bring peace to the galaxy while respecting all races equally. At least I've rationalized it in a way to create a satisfying end.

[Petrikles]

If Zine2 hasn´t got to add a good point, I concede, concerning the "blue" ending, to Cazlee. At least one way to escape the racism established by the star child´s logic. Man, I am glad!

Edit: ... which doesn´t relief the writers from the criticism of having delivering a faulty ending message, as others have pointed out. You shouldn´t be prevented to put a more definite stop to the cause of millenia old genocide/racism.

Modifié par Kailord, 28 mars 2012 - 11:16 .

[Phobius9]

All you humans are racist.

[Xandurpein]

Cazlee wrote...

The thing is, when you encounter an entity as old as the catalyst it's probably wise to heed its warnings.

Then isn't the logical conclusion to this argument that you should stop fighting the Reapers who are so much older and wiser than us and let them exterminate us in the name of the greater Galactic good?

[Vilegrim]

TheMadBlimper wrote...

thinicer wrote...

TheMadBlimper wrote...

This is why I chose to destroy that little #@$!er, and everything associated with him.

Unfortunately, technology as a whole was wiped out, along with the Geth, as collateral damage.

I didn't choose the red ending because it would have completely undermined what I set out to accomplish in the 2nd and 3rd games and ultimately succeeded in: reconcilng the Geth and Quarians. If I choose the red ending, then I kill all Geth and ruin everything I did in the 2nd and 3rd games. I also kill EDI who I grew very fond of.

I hate saying this, I really do, but they were acceptable losses. In the grand scheme of things, they were martyred along with Shepard, dying for the only cause worth dying for (at least in Mass Effect.)

No they where not.  Shepard had a choice, the Geth did not.  They where asked to fight, the agreed, they where not asked to go extinct to suit the psycotic whims of genocidal child.

[Xyrm]

The OP of this thread is... a genius. I think he/she really got at what made so many people uncomfortable with the ending.

[Sanrei]

Vilegrim wrote...

No they where not.  Shepard had a choice, the Geth did not.  They where asked to fight, the agreed, they where not asked to go extinct to suit the psycotic whims of genocidal child.

This is not something Shepard would compromise on, either, especially if you follow a paragon path.
This is what made the ending so hard for so many people. What choice can you pick when you don't want to pick any of them? We weren't given an Option D to tell starbrat to bugger off, we're doing this MY way, not YOUR way.

When I had to walk down one of those paths I tried to tell myself, as I headed toward the red option, that it was better to sacrifice a small number so that billions can live on... right? It was an empty and unfullfilling argument that lead to empty, emotionally devestating consequences, as did all the endings. It was wrong, and the whole thing left me feeling sick.

The ending betrays the series on various levels, but this one takes the krogan cake.

[Surgeon_Sniper]

 yeah i'm sore about the ending too.... but Hitler? Come on, man. These guys don't deserve this kinda voodoo shower of hate. I don't know everything, but I can pretty much rest assured that the **** aggenda was not a part of the gameplan.

[Zine2]

I think this needs repeating:

I am not even talking about any of the options. I never mention Control, Synthesis, and Destroy. At all.

My point is that the issue lies with the Catalyst thinking that there is even a problem to begin with. If it was so wise and it only wants to "protect" us, then why is it actually committing mass genocide - which is the complete opposite of its stated purpose?

I did not comment on how Destroy/Synthesis/Control is prejudiced/condones genocide.

I am instead saying that the Catalyst's very premise for creating the cycle is based on hateful prejudice and it condones genocide.

In short, the Catalyst is not the solution. It is the very root of the problem. It represents casual disregard for life. It represents hateful prejudice and inability to work for a peaceful solution.

Which is why the vast majority of players reject the ending. Which is why the most popular alternative is to simply reject the Star Child entirely. They recognized that the Star Child is literally the root of all of this pain and evil, and it therefore has no right to dictate the terms of your victory.

Modifié par Zine2, 29 mars 2012 - 04:05 .

[Petrikles]

Zine2, thank you for this clarification. But you did say "And the player is forced to become one of the pawns in his game."
And I for myself am a little bit content now, that at least by sacrificing yourself, you can break the starchilds logic by taking over control and at least settle for doing things right in the future. So you are not the pawn of it anymore, even if you have to give your life to, apparently, this monster´s whim. 

It is not the satisfaction we should have gotten out of it, but it is at least something, a little bit.

I understand now how you mean it, and I still think you are right and the starchild itself is the most offensive element of the ending, in many, many aspects. IMO, only a complete erase-rewrite of the ending could fix this mess.

Modifié par Kailord, 29 mars 2012 - 07:46 .

[OblivionDawn]

Racist (or speciest or whatever)? Perhaps.

Offensive? Lol, give me a break.

[Zine2]

Kailord wrote...

Zine2, thank you for this clarification. But you did say "And the player is forced to become one of the pawns in his game."
And I for myself am a little bit content now, that at least by sacrificing yourself, you can break the starchilds logic by taking over control and at least settle for doing things right in the future. So you are not the pawn of it anymore, even if you have to give your life to, apparently, this monster´s whim. 

The main reason why I don't delve into the three choices is because it's full of speculation. T

Sacrificing yourself to control the Reapers does not necessarily make things right for the future. It will not stop all future genocides. Heck, it may not even stop further future genocides by the Reapers. 

For all we know all Shepard accomplished was to temporarily control the Reapers, and that they will eventually be able to break this Control and end up committing mass genocide again.

In short, sure, you can imagine "Shep controls the Reapers so now the cycle is broken!", but it's not a certainty. But the certainty of a moral compromise - allowing yourself to follow a mass-murderer's whims rather than rejecting it entirely - remains.

Modifié par Zine2, 29 mars 2012 - 09:26 .

[TookYoCookies]

 This was a very interesting post and im disappointed its taken me this long to find/ and then read. 
I agree with most everything you say. What actually disappoints me most, was to find out that alot of people picked the synthesis ending, thinking it some kind of peace-keeping ending. Where as it stuck out to me from the onset as no different from eugenics. Something that has been fought against IRL for years, and has been the goal of many of RL's evil tyrants, including your reference to **** germany and their "Final Solution", and the jewish holocaust. I found that kind of compromise to be unsettling, and caused me to question if people fully understood the depth of the choice.
The fact that your stuck deciding between: 

• Control. And likely full-on indoctrination imo. (as displayed by the illusive man, and his seduction to full indoctrination based on this concept.)
• Synthesis. Basically Eugenics. Alter the DNA of every living species, in order to fufill this inanimate intelligence's goal of "the pinnacle of evolution". Not so different from the ideals of people like Hitler towards the Jews, or Hirhito towards the chinese (See: rape of Nanking)
• Destroy. Kill the reapers but also destroy all synthetic life, including the recently aligned geth, and quite possibly EDI. Basically sh*tting on legions sacrifice, and possibly murdering your friend's girlfriend. (Also your own death possibly, and possibly ruining the quarians future. reference, post truce in-game dialouge: Geth helping quarians become immune to diseases, not to mention their needed assistance in the re-building of rannoch.)   

In my opion, not so different from OP's, your left to decide between giving in to reaper control, the unjustified rape of organic DNA transforming it into god (space child) knows what, or destroying the reapers and commiting mass murder in the process. Basically 3 choices i've been fighting against throught out the entire trilogy till this point, knowing that standing against said choices/outcomes may very well result in my death. Only to be forced to come to some kind of abominable compromise without any choice in the matter is what, I too, found deeply disturbing about the ending. Contradicting the theme of the franchise, and compromising the integerity of the game in my opinion.

[Laurencio]

I thought they made that mistake with the Geth vs Quarians. How could two intelligent races not realise that one of them leaving would be the best sollution. You have your homeworld back, now let the robots leave. I hated the Geth for what they did. They could have so easily jumped out of combat and left to start their own civilization, but no, once they bcame properlt sentient they comitted genocide. I wanted to shoot every one of those bastards when Tali went off that cliff...

[Fliprot]

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