1086 réponses à ce sujet

[Zine2]

Well, we can forgive Bioware if the clarification involves shooting the Star Child in the face.

[Ashilana]

Zine2 wrote...

Well, we can forgive Bioware if the clarification involves shooting the Star Child in the face.

Judging by the quality of their work on the face import bugfix....I am guessing that Shep will tell the starchild they pledge their undying fealty. 

[Nyctyris]

Well... I really enjoyed your OP, and I can only wonder what bioware thinks of it lol.

[KeldorKatarn]

Ashilana wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

Well, we can forgive Bioware if the clarification involves shooting the Star Child in the face.

Judging by the quality of their work on the face import bugfix....I am guessing that Shep will tell the starchild they pledge their undying fealty. 

Totally offtopic, but, what is wrong with that fix? When I played it wasn't fixed yet so I fixed it with a save editor myself. Does it still not work as expected? If there is a thread about it I'd appreciate a link so this thread doesn't go offtopic.

[Skull Bearer]

bump

[ShepardTheHopeful]

Zine2 wrote...

<insert long rant here>

You remind me of the African American lady who tried to claim Resident Evil was racist because you're killing black people in Africa. 

It's part of the game. The reapers are beings of logic (flawed as it may be and boy is it flawed) they don't care about your idea of wrong or right or the ideas of compassion towards other creatures. They see what they're doing as a very necessary evil. Population control/culture control.

I am NOT pro war but lets face it for every 500 that die 1000 are born to take their place maybe more. And if we didn't kill each other and perform genocide (once again I'm not pro for this stuff just speaking as a scientist) we'll end up like the drell. No space program 11 billion people no resources and we all die and starve to death. 

That's the idea of the game and what makes the reapers so horrible. They see this genocide as the only viable option because it makes the most sense logically to them. Their resoning of syntehtic killing organic creators is incredibly freaking stupid but the general idea is correct. If they didn't think this way and were concerned about organic life and didn't see us as "rudamentary beings of blood and flesh" Then they wouldn't be much of a threat to the galaxy. 

It's a game go worry about the fact that we murder each other over pretty pieces of paper but don't bring your bleeding heart politics into my M rated game. 

I hate people who get easily offended you're the reason that I can't get good cartoons anymore and why Animaniacs was cancelled for 7th Heaven. 

Modifié par ShepardTheHopeful, 14 avril 2012 - 10:55 .

[Zine2]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

It's part of the game. The reapers are beings of logic (flawed as it may be and boy is it flawed) they don't care about your idea of wrong or right or the ideas of compassion towards other creatures. They see what they're doing as a very necessary evil. Population control/culture control.

It's not a necessary evil. It's just plain evil. This complete inability to recognize that there is no such thing as a "from a certain perspective" only goes on to demonstrate how much you have to deliberately close your eyes and ignore the facts in order to justify the ending.

Killing and saving are not synonyms. Not in this universe, not in any universe. It does not matter if you have a twisted perspective - that only means you're clinically insane and therefore have no right to make decisions for others.

I hate people who get easily offended you're the reason that I can't get good cartoons anymore and why Animaniacs was cancelled for 7th Heaven. 

Actually, I'm not easily offended. And attributing what I am doing to censorship is again nothing more than a cop-out. If you want to be treated as "art", then you must be open to actual in-depth criticism. And when your work turns out to have monstrous parallels to real-world genocide, uses the same justifications, and then forces the player to go along with the said genocidal villain in the name of "solving" a non-existent "problem" based on an ideology of prejudice and hatred, don't go whining about an unrelated tangent on how it got "Animaniacs" cancelled.

This criticism and the cancellation of your favorite shows have absolutely no connection with this criticism whatsoever. At its core, this critique is not questioning the presence of violence in art. It is not even questioning depicting evil in art. It is questioning why people are forced to submit themselves to the will of an evil mass-murderer, instead of being able to reject the ideology of hatred and prejudice.

Modifié par Zine2, 16 avril 2012 - 01:37 .

[kflanigan]

HERE HERE!

[lx_theo]

Oh, wow.

[wolfstanus]

Oh my...

[Kalundume]

It's part of the game. The reapers are beings of logic (flawed as it may be and boy is it flawed) they don't care about your idea of wrong or right or the ideas of compassion towards other creatures. They see what they're doing as a very necessary evil. Population control/culture control.

Some comments on that: Reaper's logic is THEIR logic (or if you wish: game villains logic), however the game designers were not reapers but humans, who are supposed to know the general history and ethics. The choices given in a game are ALL in Reaper's logic, NONE of those choices is in the live beings / player's logic. It is as if every choice was done according to Mein Kampf or according to Stalin's thesis. There are no other choices.

Also, understand one thing: Mass Effect world is based on REAL WORLD (it is a future of real world as imagined by Bioware), the whole series lore says that. By itself Mass Effect series is bound to respect the ethics of the REAL WORLD and not some invented laws. It is not the same as putting the FTL or biotics that do not exist in real world, it is far more reaching. Some ethical values are not disputable and universal, or otherwise they may be found extremally offending.

I hate people who get easily offended you're the reason that I can't get good cartoons anymore and why Animaniacs was cancelled for 7th Heaven.

I think that you have not understood what was written before: Mass Effect as is states: everything is done according to the Reapers bidding. By putting the thing that way, the whole premise of the game is accusable of MORAL RELATIVISM, which is a position that is inacceptable in some places of the world (might think of many european countries).

The only way out for Bioware is to make such extended cut that gives the possibility of additional CHOICE coming out of the FREE WILL of the player.

Remember also what Edi discussed with Shepard: sometimes the death is preferable to submission.

It is what many people had done in real world in the concentration camps in 2WW and Soviet Union. Maybe they had no chance to survive, but they were able to make their free will choice, they tried the ressistance ... most of time they were dead, but at least they were dead retaining their humanity.

[Veloric Wu]

Kai Leng is an Asian......the only Asian in the story and he is a jackass....I was indeed offended slightly at that one. But yeah, like you said, the ending is insulting in its own.

[Kingsc45]

What happen to the Jedi was genocide, I don't see anybody ****ing about that. It wouldn't have been a pointless game if everybody life wasn't in danger.

[Jimuth]

OP - good post. Some on here can't see that you're calling out the racism inherent in the star child's argument but saying that the game is racist. Doh

Just still cannot get my head around the endings - why make a game where you build bridges throughout and then poo all over it in the last 5 minutes. Crazy

On the subject of asians, I always thought it was weird that given the likely dominance of the BRIC countries over the next century that the ME series is populated by so many caucasians. I'd expect most of the Alliance ships to have "Made in China" stamped somewhere, everything else is now.

[Kingsc45]

FeriktheCerberus hmmm Kasumi, Emily Wong, Hana Murakami, Keiji Okuda, Maeko Matsuo are all Asian even if all their roles are minimal at best.

[Wintermaulz]

im rearperish and i find this racist























(sarcasm)

[Eterna]

Good grief.

It's time to grow up.

[NickelToe]

The idea that we can say no to Mac and Casey's starchild would be awesome. The whole concept of the ending is flawed and forced on us.

If only there were an options for Joker, your LI or Hacket to chime in on the magic radio you had so you can respond with, "Fire on the Catalyst (or even the citadel). It was a hoax, the reapers wanted us to create this."

Shepherd dies of course which most people understand is part of a grand story like this but he goes out fighting, not laying down to the ideal of a universally flawed todler with his hand on the "red button."

I guess a rejection of the StarChild equates to a rejection of Casey and Mac because they stand behind the "teams" (their own) ending.

EDIT:  All the endings also undo any good you did in uniteing Quarians and Geth or curing the genophage as well so the game really plays out like 99% solving problems and building bridges.  Last 1% burn everything to the ground.  None of the ideals you fought for and decided on during the game or the series are referenced in the ending, they are just moot.

Modifié par NickelToe, 21 avril 2012 - 08:39 .

[Kingsc45]

ME3 ending let's you know playing ME1 and 2 was a big waste of time. You'd don't even have to play the other games, because the ending will always be the same.

[Doctor Uburian]

NickelToe wrote...

The idea that we can say no to Mac and Casey's starchild would be awesome. The whole concept of the ending is flawed and forced on us.

If only there were an options for Joker, your LI or Hacket to chime in on the magic radio you had so you can respond with, "Fire on the Catalyst (or even the citadel). It was a hoax, the reapers wanted us to create this."

Shepherd dies of course which most people understand is part of a grand story like this but he goes out fighting, not laying down to the ideal of a universally flawed todler with his hand on the "red button."

I guess a rejection of the StarChild equates to a rejection of Casey and Mac because they stand behind the "teams" (their own) ending.

EDIT:  All the endings also undo any good you did in uniteing Quarians and Geth or curing the genophage as well so the game really plays out like 99% solving problems and building bridges.  Last 1% burn everything to the ground.  None of the ideals you fought for and decided on during the game or the series are referenced in the ending, they are just moot.

And they still try to justify what they have done, when the only thing that could fix this mess is an apology, followed by the creation of a new, complex, hopeful and large collection of new endings. 

[_Kerghan_]

Calling it racist is going too far.  That word gets thrown around way more than it should.  But the ending definitely tries to justify genocide, whether the writers even realized that fact, or not.  The Starbrat basically states that all intelligent life is wiped out again and again, for the greater good, and we aren't even allowed to argue with that.

Modifié par _Kerghan_, 21 avril 2012 - 09:13 .

[Woodstock-TC]

to OP: Drastic put, but strong. thanks.

[Kalundume]

The nihilistic and totalitarian endings are not justifiable by any means ... only some additional options given to the players (ie meaning: ending solution proposed by Shepard himself and not by the homicide/xenocide evil machines) can redeem the whole thing. As long as the free will is thrown away the ending is not only against very basic moral values (notion of good and evil) but it is all "soul crushing", 1000% bitter, not bittersweet

[Murvel88]

I saw the title of this thread and thought "Oh dear, here we go..." but I have to say that the OP have put a lot of thought into this and his arguments are not that far-fetched. As has already been stated in this thread, if MacHudson wanted the ending to be open to interpretation then this theory is as valid as any other. Thanks for posting, lots of interesting discussions here.

Modifié par Murvel88, 21 avril 2012 - 05:56 .

[Ashilana]

NickelToe wrote...

The idea that we can say no to Mac and Casey's starchild would be awesome. The whole concept of the ending is flawed and forced on us.

If only there were an options for Joker, your LI or Hacket to chime in on the magic radio you had so you can respond with, "Fire on the Catalyst (or even the citadel). It was a hoax, the reapers wanted us to create this."

That would be a fine ending and it would circumvent the whole collaboration issue.  Whoever was responsible for the ending really had no idea what they were creating however...so we are out of luck.

NickelToe wrote...

I guess a rejection of the StarChild equates to a rejection of Casey and Mac because they stand behind the "teams" (their own) ending.

EDIT:  All the endings also undo any good you did in uniteing Quarians and Geth or curing the genophage as well so the game really plays out like 99% solving problems and building bridges.  Last 1% burn everything to the ground.  None of the ideals you fought for and decided on during the game or the series are referenced in the ending, they are just moot.

The complete undoing of most things Shep work for through the three games is so odd.  The only rational reason they might have wanted this scorched earth treatment of the universe was so they could make a new Mass Effect game that bears no resemblence to the universe they established.  That would be an odd thing to set out to do...