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The Ending was Racist and Offensive

Débuté par Zine2 , mars 16 2012 03:42

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#176
nitefyre410
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:16

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SandTrout wrote...

Hey, if they wanted the ending to be open to interpretation, this seems perfectly valid to me.

 

well the OP is not complete off  base - It was the first thought that did pop in my head... after hearing that explaination

I just avoided pulling out and dropping the Race card on them but the Catalyst mentality does sound ...simular.    Discussion would really stay to in game reasons why  the endings don't make sense.  Pulling out  Race and simularities of the Catalyst thinking to some of the worst humanity has to offer is not going  really bring much table.  

#177
Sc2mashimaro
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:17

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shadey wrote...

op is probably the same type of person who would call someone a racist for calling someone black,

nuff said.

anyway the correct term would be specist, they are different SPECIES, not races


In Mass Effect different species are obvious analogs for different races/ethnic groups. The OP makes a solid argument. I'm not saying you have to agree with the OP, but it is wrong to simply dismiss their analysis without examining their evidence. I don't necessarily agree with the OP, but I find it indefensible that so many are attacking the OP without considering the actual argument made.

#178
Halberd96
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:18

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I think you guys are reading too much into this.

The ending was bad sure but don't take it too far.

People did the same thing when Dragon Age 2 ended up bad y'know, they looked for ways to call DA 2 racist, homophobic or etc.

#179
Guest_QuadDamage85_*
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:19

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Hmmm, interesting point. I actually do agree. Honestly though, Bioware is quite sexist too.

#180
burke111
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:19

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Flashlegend wrote...

burke111 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Harbinger of Hope wrote...

I can see the headline from FOX NEWS now: Mass Effect 3 condones genocide

EDIT:  I made sure to save your whole post OP. Incase the SS Mods come by and delete it on one of their false claims, just like they did to the people who found out how to get Javik on your squad by changing ONE LINE OF CODE!


Not that I'm for censoring speech in general, but the worst thing that could happen in all of this debacle is Fox News coming and using this argument against Mass Effect. God knows we don't need that **** again...


As much as I agree and hate Fox News, it would probably ensure that Bioware at least makes an official statement on the ending...



Nah, they definitely couldn't. In all seriousness, this is far too intellectual for fox news.


Since when does not understanding the subject matter stop Fox News from demonizing something?

#181
kent80082006
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:21

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"You human are all racist!"

#182
shadey
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:21

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Sc2mashimaro wrote...



In Mass Effect different species are obvious analogs for different races/ethnic groups. The OP makes a solid argument. I'm not saying you have to agree with the OP, but it is wrong to simply dismiss their analysis without examining their evidence. I don't necessarily agree with the OP, but I find it indefensible that so many are attacking the OP without considering the actual argument made.


no it's absurd to suggest a company like bioware which has a very pro-gay/we are all the same underneath/can romance aliens has an underlying message the made a secretly racist ending about superioirity as their intention

op is just one of these people that find racism in everything, like the fact there was some guy a while ago on the news saying black holes were racist.

it's stupid.

Modifié par shadey, 16 mars 2012 - 05:22 .

#183
Zine2
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:22

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Re: "It was all a Hallucination / Dream /Indoctrination!" Ending...

This entire thread is based on the premise that the ending was real.

However, note that everything I mentioned here will not contradict a "Dream" ending either. In that case, the Catalyst was in fact just using self-serving arguments to justify and condone its multiple acts of genocide.

Re: Synthetic Ending = Make everyone an Aryan!

That's actually an apt comparison, and demonstrates how racist the Catalyst's premise is to divide the universe along Synthetic and Organic lines.

There is no guarantee that the hybrids will not end up fighting each other. The human-hybrids may still end up fighting the turian-hybrids.

Moreover, it also doesn't stop new life from being developed that is pure Organic or Synthetic. We know that the Protheans seeded life all over the galaxy. A hybrid civilization can still make a pure Synthetic race.

Thus, the Catalyst's belief that Synthesis is a solution is frankly illusory. There was no problem to begin with.

#184
Guest_Sparatus_*
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:24

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Overthinking this ending you probably are
should probably not get so worked up
Casey Hudson has a beautiful smile

#185
Zine2
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:25

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shadey wrote...

no it's absurd to suggest a company like bioware which has a very pro-gay/we are all the same underneath/can romance aliens has an underlying message the made a secretly racist ending about superioirity as their intention

op is just one of these people that find racism in everything, like the fact there was some guy a while ago on the news saying black holes were racist.

it's stupid.


On the contrary, I do not find racism in everything.

However, the fact that you cite that inter-species romance is proof of Bioware's non-racism demonstrates your selection bias. If inter-racial relations are a good thing, then why is the Star Child's premise that the world is divided between Organics and Synthetics suddenly not racist?

Again, I did not claim Bioware did this delberately. But it certainly shows poor writing on their part if they think what they wrote was "deep", when in fact it was just the Star Child recounting his own version of Mein Kampf.

#186
Statulos
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:26

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Lambchopz wrote...

Think you might be reading into it a bit too much here. You may feel this way. I think most just think it's a bad ending because it was poorly written, not because they oppose it morally.


Maybe the paralells are quite extreme but OP rises a very valid point: in Mass Effect 3 you clearly demonstrate that the sins of the fathers are not forced onto their offspring. And you do it several times!

First you start with the krogan. Mordin in ME2 points out at the reason why the salarian policy towards them, to give weapons and tech to a very aggresive race due to a planet with harsh conditions was not a good idea. If technology does not develop with that pack of knowledge that we generally call "humanities", we have a disassaster. Humanities are the electricity that makes the little red bulb of your conscience light up telling you that "just because you can does not mean you should". Asari are the prime example on this regard: they could have enslaved everyone in the galaxy quick, yet they are famous for their arts and sciences, not for the brutal capacity for destruction (and damn, their commandos can do a lot of harm).
Wrex is the key for that; he and Eve tell very clearly that for once they don´t want the krogan to be blood and guns for hire, that they want their pile of rubble planet to be a nice place to live again. Wrex very clearly points out at a millenia of war as the source for their poor situation.

Then you go to the rachni and following ME1, you discover that they are poisoned by reapers. They don´t really want to inflict suffering and missery onto other and themselves, that they simply want to have the right to live just like the rest.

And finaly the geth. You discover that quarians got very scared, that geth were attacked and that they want to be another culture that can live with the rest. In fact you can help Legion to give them real life, individual conscience and literaly, make them sentient and fully aware not just their own existence, but also a new aspect of existence: feelings. Legion feels ashamed, something that no geth has ever experimented.

Same goes for EDI on a smaller scale; she even starts understanding organic feelings, she realizes she loves Joker and that she´s willing to risk her very existence to protect him. And that right there is a very, very organic attitude.

And in the end all this is worth nothing. You have helped correcting terrible atrocities, you have helped entire forms of life and culture have a hope for a future, the notion that they can live and be respected and then you´re forced to send all down the toilet. Excelent, thanks a lot for telling me that in the end it does not matter.

All this time you have been helping yourself and others by considering that not everything is a yes/no/more or less answer, that there are infinite possibilities. Well, guess that´s not how things work...

Modifié par Statulos, 16 mars 2012 - 05:28 .

#187
babelcarlota
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:28

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Welcome to the... hmm... the group who hate the ending... but damn what you drinking? Can I have some?

#188
Dark Penitant
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:29

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I... okay. This... made some level of sense, and that disturbs me O.o

The reason why I would never choose the synthesis ending is because it takes the choice away from trillions, though.

#189
Guest_Vurculac_*
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:29

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Zine2 wrote...

This is not meant to be nice. This is meant to be a blunt, honest, and to the point assessment - because everyone seems to be trying to avoid the Elephant in the room.

Mass Effect's Ending attempts to condone and justify genocide. This is why it is almost universally reviled.

The one common element in all the endings is that you will meet an entity known as the "Catalyst". Set aside all of the other plot holes and minor complaints, and focus on the Catalyst for now.

This is the entity that created the Reapers. This is the entity that is directly responsible for the genocide of multiple sentient races over tens of thousands of years. It is his fault that Earth, Palaven, Thessia, and the Galaxy is burning.

The Catalyst is in fact a war criminal on a scale worse than any of our own real-world tyrants. Hitler's gas chambers, Genghis Khan's campaigns of extermination, and Tamerlene's pyramid of skulls is nothing compared to what the Reapers have done. That it tries to disguise itself as a young child does nothing to exonerate it of the magnitude of its crimes - it's actually sickening. It's like Hitler having plastic surgery to look like an innocent child.

Even worse, this is an entity that attempts to justify its genocidal actions - in a way that is bluntly little different from the real world genocide of the Jews.

It uses euphemisms to describe mass murder. It uses the term "Chaos" to describe people, as though they are a problem and not living, breathing, beings. It calls its actions a "Solution", just as the certain people called the Holocaust their "Final Solution". It even goes as far as calling the the liquification of corpses into Reaper components as "Ascension", no different from how the Concentration Camps collected the hair and skin of the dead victims to use as furniture components.

Even worse, the premise of the Catalyst is fundamentally a racist premise. It boils down to "Organics and Synthetics are so different that they will always end up destroying each other". Really? You are now judged by your component parts - metal or protein - instead of the content of your character? How offensive would it be in real life to hear someone say you should be judged by the color of your skin?

To top it all off, the player is not allowed to question its actions. It must stand idly by and accept its justifications. You are not allowed to tell it that is wrong. Mac Walters and Casey Hudson actually thought this was a good thing too, as noted here in the "Final Hours":

Mac Walters on the Star Child/Reapers
"Originally, with the catalyst, the star child at the end of the game, I had written that much more in the guise of a investigative style conversation, where there is something he tells you but then, you get to ask a bunch of questions and you get your questions answered. But then me and Casey talked and decided, lets keep the conversation "High level". Give you the details that you need to know, but don't get into the stuff that you don't need to know. Like "How long have they been reaping?" You don't need to know the answers to the mass effect universe. So we intentionally left those out"


But given that they were planning to allow the player to ask only softball questions ("How long have you been reaping?", as opposed to "Why did you not seek a different solution that did NOT involve mass murder?"), they were apparently so in love with their "Genocide is justifiable!" ending that they didn't think it was a big deal.

======
But it gets even worse. You are not simply prevented from telling the Catalyst that it is wrong. You are also forced to go along with its next plan - its next "solution".

This is why the most popular alternate ending thus far is the "I refuse all of your options" ending. Players would seriously rather have the entire galaxy wiped out than be forced to serve the Catalyst.

And you know what? Because they are absolutely right.

Genocide is wrong. Period. There is no room for debate. Nothing can justify what the Catalyst did, no matter how much it claims it's so much smarter than all of us. No matter how much Mac Walters thinks its smarter than all of us.

And this is ironically a lesson that the rest of the series spends so much time teaching us. It shows us that even beings of another races are people "just like us" with their own hopes and dreams. It doesn't matter if the Elcor are big and look funny. We love them because they have art, and culture, and feelings too, even if we cannot fully comprehend it like they do.
----

This is why the ME3 ending was a total and abject failure. It is not art. It is not deep. It is offensive.

It is about a brat AI proudly explaining his Mein Kampf. That people should be judged along racial lines: Organic vs Synthetic. And that because of these racial lines, he was totally justified in committing genocide over, and over, and over again.

And the player is forced to become one of the pawns in his game. That is why players hate the ending; and why the most popular "alternative" ending is one wherein the player completely and totally rejects the Catalyst's "options", even if it means certain military defeat.
-----
[Also... since some people will argue "But the Catalyst is correct about organics and synthetics!"

The Catalyst was in fact completely and totally wrong. Just because it says it's correct does not mean it is true. That is the trick used by propagandists everywhere.

Instead, what people should do is to analyze the strength of its arguments. And frankly, anyone with some common sense would realize that this is a very weak argument.

There is nothing that inherently forces Organics and Synthetics to fight each other. Races and people fight all the time. Turians make war on Krogans. Krogans make war on Salarians. Even without synthetics there will still be conflict in the universe.

However, the Catalyst's premise is that there is a divide between Synthetics and Organics, and that they are "fated" to kill each other. That's not a sound argument. That's just racist ideology. Again that's just judging people based on their component parts - metal or protein - rather than the strength of their character. Only a racist in the real world would claim that your character is dictated by the color of your skin, just as the Catalyst's grand assertion that being a Synthetic or an Organic hard-wires you down a particular path is no less racist.

And ironically, you can in fact forge an alliance between an organic and Synthetic race (Quarians and Geth) within the game - proving that the divide between the two is nothing more than a lie.

Therefore, what the Catalyst is saying is not factual. Just because it says "the cycle will continue" without its intervention does not make it true. It's just an arrogant being who is trying to play God, and which has killed trillons of sentient beings in the name of upholding its flawed premise.]



Now there is something I never considered. I see your point. Like another poster on here stated, given how this whole thing has been left up to individual interpretation to this point, it seems as vailid as any other. Good post.

#190
MrPuschel
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:30

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It was a ROBOCIDE .. ... oh my god ...that one was bad.

#191
ConradsLaces
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:34

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I came in expecting one thing... and was amazed by your well-written article.
Wow. I'm floored.

Well done. I need to re-read this.

#192
Zine2
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:35

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Halberd96 wrote...

I think you guys are reading too much into this.

The ending was bad sure but don't take it too far.

People did the same thing when Dragon Age 2 ended up bad y'know, they looked for ways to call DA 2 racist, homophobic or etc.


Dragon Age 2's ending was not "racist", but was a (very poor) attempt to portray the fundamental balance between human liberty and the safety of the society.

Mages are dangerous. This is a simple fact. Templars are supposed to police them to protect the society.

But Mages are people too, and the Templars have been shown to abuse their power and impose terrible punishments upon the mages. Mages have  right to freedom.

Unfortunately, both sides were apparently led by complete idiots hence all the bloodshed, rather than a peaceful resolution.

ME3's ending however is different. We are FORCED to endure the Reapers attempting to justify their acts of genocide, and their premise is essentially a racist one saying "Organics and Synthetics will always kill each other".

#193
petipas4141
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:38

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I uh... you know I should uh....

I should go...

#194
usmack5
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:38

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Very interesting point....I don't know if the catalyst was intended to be racist, but the fact that the choices provided listed by it (if they are to be taken literally), all include either genocide or the removal of free will/choice, I'd say all of the endings are unethical and totally against what Shepard represents, at least. The catalyst/space child/magic being/possible hallucination/thing presents an arrogant attitude assuming that it must have thought out all of the possibilities and that synthetics are destined to destroy organics, if left unchecked. This is basically proven to be false, with EDI's musings and the Quarian/Geth peace that occurs, so I'd say ethics/morals 1 point, rigid, nonsensical ending choices 0.

#195
daver321
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:40

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/slowclap
Well said. This is what I was feeling without being able to pinpoint it exactly. Thanks for clarifying.

Edit:  Can you be Shepard at the end of the game instead?  After this speach, Warp/Throw the god child off the platform.

Modifié par daver321, 16 mars 2012 - 05:43 .

#196
ArchLord James
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:44

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Although I think the OP makes a good point about becoming a pawn for genocidal killer of countless civilizations (yeah I hated going along with the catalyst), trying to pull the race card is stretching a bit too far. You talk about the geth as if they are real and equatable to people in real life, Jews and the Holocaust even, but woah man its just a game, and what your insinuating is actually kind of offensive. Let's remember that Bioware created the Geth, and all the plot lines that try to establish us to respect their rights to be sentient and free. I love the concept but let's not blur the distinctions between real life and sci-fi okay?

As I said though, your point about how the ending goes against everything we know about Shepard, is a very good one. Here you have this entity known as catalyst, responsible for the death of so many innocent people. He is pure evil and genocidal as you point out. And it isn't surprising that catalyst tries to justify his action as necessary, but it is very surprising and disappointing that Shepard basically accepts the premise, and chooses to implement the catalysts new "solution." He is basically in league with the reapers now its so stupid.

Anyways stick to that point, and drop the racism part it detracts from your argument and makes you look like an offensive troll.

#197
someguy1231
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:45

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Knew it was only a matter before somebody made the inevitable "racist and offensive" claims against something so incomprehensible...

#198
Orthodox Infidel
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:49

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Zolt51 wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

If Guardian is Immortal Hitler, then the whole thing is WWII all over again, and Commander Shepard's offered choices are:

1. Accept Hitler's resignation and become the new leader of the Third Reich.
2. Take the offered peace deal, where we're all Aryans now!
3. Defeat the Third Reich at all costs, including firebombing Dresden.

I know what ethically questionable choice I'd make.


Hey' that's actually not a bad analogy.
1 would be more like "Defeat Hitler but keep his secret weapons just in case"


Maybe. It depends on how you view the Reapers. If they're all-powerful-spaceships and technology, then yes, your re-write is appropriate. If the Reapers are a misguided, fascistic society of living beings, then you're installing yourself as a benevolent facist dictator while preserving the underlying society and its methods.

Or not, if Shepard decides to use his control of the Reapers to make them all fly into the nearest black hole. What Shepard would or could do with controlling the Reapers after the war is actually finished is something that deserves its own thread, now that I'm thinking about it.

#199
TheLostGenius
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:51

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genocide is often times justified, otherwise it would not exist.

/end wisdom

#200
LilyasAvalon
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 05:52

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I actually am curious how we jumped onto 'It's racist' ._.
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