1086 réponses à ce sujet

[Sashimi_taco]

I full agree with OP and thought the same thing. This is a message that spread intolerance and that the only way to find peace is to make everyone exactly the same. That or kill them all or control them.

We live in a world where tolerance and acceptance is needed.

[Area42T]

HEIL CATALYST.

DER SPACE MAGIC WILL PROVE TO BE HIS VINAL ZOLUTION!

SIEG HEIL!

But seriously, what?

[Auralius Carolus]

Last check, Reapers were Equal Opportunity Destroyers. Sure, the primative races get left out, but most of them arn't clever enough to care. Bottom line? If it shoots at you, shoot back- intentions withstanding.

[Sc2mashimaro]

ArchLord James wrote...

Anyways stick to that point, and drop the racism part it detracts from your argument and makes you look like an offensive troll.

It's not offensive to anyone who has studied communication or rhetoric and understands what the OP is getting at. I don't actually fully agree with the OP, but I can see their point and they make a compelling argument. The point is that the OP is not doing a surface level analysis of the ending, they're performing a rhetorical analysis and examining the structure of the communication itself. They are saying "because said this, the characters did this, we are supposed to sympathize with this character and not that one, and our choices are X, Y, and Z" the rhetoric seems to imply [insert ideology here].

They do a pretty good job of it too.

You are right about the main take-away, however. The rhetoric of the ending contradicts the rhetoric of the entire rest of the game, which is part of the reason it feels like a betrayal.

[SaltyWaffles-PD]

I thought this was a joke or troll thread when I saw the title, but after reading the OP, I realize that he actually has a VERY good point.

Not that I think any of it was intentional or with ill intent, but it's so...it just fits, perfectly.

[Zine2]

ArchLord James wrote...

Although I think the OP makes a good point about becoming a pawn for genocidal killer of countless civilizations (yeah I hated going along with the catalyst), trying to pull the race card is stretching a bit too far. You talk about the geth as if they are real and equatable to people in real life, Jews and the Holocaust even, but woah man its just a game, and what your insinuating is actually kind of offensive. Let's remember that Bioware created the Geth, and all the plot lines that try to establish us to respect their rights to be sentient and free. I love the concept but let's not blur the distinctions between real life and sci-fi okay?

 
As I said, you can always make the "it's just a video game" argument. It's perfectly valid.

But I also have to point out that video games are seeking to be more than just a game. They are seeking to be art. And art can be criticized when they are promoting a premise that is essentially racist (or xenophobic if you prefer) and condones genocide.

For instance, if someone made a movie like Saving Private Ryan, and then the ending suddenly switches to one of Hitler's speeches listing his justifications for making war on Poland without any attempt ar rebuttal, then the film can certainly be criticzed not only for a jarring shift in tone, but also for using the film as a platform to repeat the evils of **** ideology. Their intent could have been different (i.e. add the ending clip to "explore the nature of evil"), but that does not excuse them for ending up delivering an "evil" message instead because of poor execution.

[Sc2mashimaro]

Statulos wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

Think you might be reading into it a bit too much here. You may feel this way. I think most just think it's a bad ending because it was poorly written, not because they oppose it morally.

Maybe the paralells are quite extreme but OP rises a very valid point: in Mass Effect 3 you clearly demonstrate that the sins of the fathers are not forced onto their offspring. And you do it several times!

First you start with the krogan. Mordin in ME2 points out at the reason why the salarian policy towards them, to give weapons and tech to a very aggresive race due to a planet with harsh conditions was not a good idea. If technology does not develop with that pack of knowledge that we generally call "humanities", we have a disassaster. Humanities are the electricity that makes the little red bulb of your conscience light up telling you that "just because you can does not mean you should". Asari are the prime example on this regard: they could have enslaved everyone in the galaxy quick, yet they are famous for their arts and sciences, not for the brutal capacity for destruction (and damn, their commandos can do a lot of harm).
Wrex is the key for that; he and Eve tell very clearly that for once they don´t want the krogan to be blood and guns for hire, that they want their pile of rubble planet to be a nice place to live again. Wrex very clearly points out at a millenia of war as the source for their poor situation.

Then you go to the rachni and following ME1, you discover that they are poisoned by reapers. They don´t really want to inflict suffering and missery onto other and themselves, that they simply want to have the right to live just like the rest.

And finaly the geth. You discover that quarians got very scared, that geth were attacked and that they want to be another culture that can live with the rest. In fact you can help Legion to give them real life, individual conscience and literaly, make them sentient and fully aware not just their own existence, but also a new aspect of existence: feelings. Legion feels ashamed, something that no geth has ever experimented.

Same goes for EDI on a smaller scale; she even starts understanding organic feelings, she realizes she loves Joker and that she´s willing to risk her very existence to protect him. And that right there is a very, very organic attitude.

And in the end all this is worth nothing. You have helped correcting terrible atrocities, you have helped entire forms of life and culture have a hope for a future, the notion that they can live and be respected and then you´re forced to send all down the toilet. Excelent, thanks a lot for telling me that in the end it does not matter.

All this time you have been helping yourself and others by considering that not everything is a yes/no/more or less answer, that there are infinite possibilities. Well, guess that´s not how things work...

I'm with you here. Now, some of the renegade choices *seem* similar to the rhetoric of the star-child, but I can't recall any that actually play out the same way. Usually Renegade vs. Paragon boils down to a Kantian vs. Utilitarian reaction to a situation. The ending just abandons the whole premise of the game, story, and mechanics up until that point and that includes the rhetorical messages the game had up until that point too.

[Slash1667]

Lugaidster wrote...

The best example I can come up with for the "Control" option in real life.

Fidel Castro rose to become the leader of an anti-dictatorship movement. Everyone in Cuba loved him and supported him. At the end, he chose to become the new leader of this dictatorship. We all know how that turned out...

Controlling the reapers is supporting that line of thought.

Actually I think a better analogy for Control would be the rise of the Soviet Union. Shepard (Stalin) controls the Reapers (The Party), The Reapers control everyone else (The People)

[Ashilana]

Skirata129 wrote...

I was expecting something completely different when I clicked on this topic. Actually very well written and you make excellent points.

I agree.  This was possibly the most damning analysis of the ending. 

[Sc2mashimaro]

Zine2 wrote...

ArchLord James wrote...

Although I think the OP makes a good point about becoming a pawn for genocidal killer of countless civilizations (yeah I hated going along with the catalyst), trying to pull the race card is stretching a bit too far. You talk about the geth as if they are real and equatable to people in real life, Jews and the Holocaust even, but woah man its just a game, and what your insinuating is actually kind of offensive. Let's remember that Bioware created the Geth, and all the plot lines that try to establish us to respect their rights to be sentient and free. I love the concept but let's not blur the distinctions between real life and sci-fi okay?

 
As I said, you can always make the "it's just a video game" argument. It's perfectly valid.

But I also have to point out that video games are seeking to be more than just a game. They are seeking to be art. And art can be criticized when they are promoting a premise that is essentially racist (or xenophobic if you prefer) and condones genocide.

For instance, if someone made a movie like Saving Private Ryan, and then the ending suddenly switches to one of Hitler's speeches listing his justifications for making war on Poland without any attempt ar rebuttal, then the film can certainly be criticzed not only for a jarring shift in tone, but also for using the film as a platform to repeat the evils of **** ideology. Their intent could have been different (i.e. add the ending clip to "explore the nature of evil"), but that does not excuse them for ending up delivering an "evil" message instead because of poor execution.

I have to disagree with the "it's just a [insert medium of communication here]" argument's validity. It is true that you should not assume that the creators of the content are racists or make the main take-away from the ending racism based on rhetorical analysis, but any form of communication is valid for rhetorical analysis. Studying the intended messages, unintended messages, implied messages, and what the message leaves out can give you an appreciation for the (actual) depth of communication and art being presented. It can also give you insight in to why certain things work or do not work, such as endings to video games. (Why didn't the end of ME3 work? It contradicted the thematic and rhetorical structure of the entire rest of the game is a pretty good argument.)

[Slash1667]

burke111 wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

burke111 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Harbinger of Hope wrote...

I can see the headline from FOX NEWS now: Mass Effect 3 condones genocide

EDIT:  I made sure to save your whole post OP. Incase the SS Mods come by and delete it on one of their false claims, just like they did to the people who found out how to get Javik on your squad by changing ONE LINE OF CODE!

Not that I'm for censoring speech in general, but the worst thing that could happen in all of this debacle is Fox News coming and using this argument against Mass Effect. God knows we don't need that **** again...

As much as I agree and hate Fox News, it would probably ensure that Bioware at least makes an official statement on the ending...

Nah, they definitely couldn't. In all seriousness, this is far too intellectual for fox news.

Since when does not understanding the subject matter stop Fox News from demonizing something?

Since when does not understanding the subject matter stop ANY of the left or right wing media from demonizing ANYTHING?

[NightHawkIL]

At first glance this seems extreme, but I agree now that I've thought about it. I've seen another thing similar to this pointed out previously: That even the ending that you have to work to unlock, synthesis, works by changing who everyone is into a higher evolutionary state. Changing every race so that it's the same, because who they were was not good enough - either because they could not be trusted not to make AI that would destroy them, or that they could not get along with the AI already in existence without being made the same as them. You work the entire game to bring unity between races, and in the end the option that is raised up as the correct one is to decide that different races should be obliterated.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

agathokakological wrote...

Guardian is Immortal Hitler. No wonder the ending was so bad!

This can actually be used as a valid analogy, within the context presented by the OP. 

If Guardian is Immortal Hitler, then the whole thing is WWII all over again, and Commander Shepard's offered choices are:

1. Accept Hitler's resignation and become the new leader of the Third Reich.
2. Take the offered peace deal, where we're all Aryans now!
3. Defeat the Third Reich at all costs, including firebombing Dresden.

I know what ethically questionable choice I'd make.

that's actually very appropriate.

What the OP is actually pointing out is that if synthetics are all Germans, Reapers are the "elevated" Aryans, and the god-child is Hitler then the last choice (3) is actually kill all Germans in the name of stopping their inevitable destruction of other races.

Maybe. I figured most people would justify the death of EDI and the Geth in the "Destroy" choice as "collateral damage." e.g. "We have to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki to avoid a land invasion which would kill many more people."  Which, oddly enough, if that's what we're supposed to believe, then that choice might actually "colored appropriately."

Then again, what I just wrote could be a correct analysis if Anderson, Hackett, or Shepard articulated it. That decision is offered by the space-brat, who we're calling Hitler. So it would be like Hitler saying "You will have to erase all of the German people from existence to stop our otherwise inevitiable victory." Which actually fits into this racist/nationalist/utter-propaganda framework perfectly.

And now that I'm re-reading that... it's exactly what you said. I don't actually disagree, I've just restated it more verbosely because it's 2:15 AM here and I'm losing the ability to think clearly.

[Sashimi_taco]

Slash1667 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

The best example I can come up with for the "Control" option in real life.

Fidel Castro rose to become the leader of an anti-dictatorship movement. Everyone in Cuba loved him and supported him. At the end, he chose to become the new leader of this dictatorship. We all know how that turned out...

Controlling the reapers is supporting that line of thought.

Actually I think a better analogy for Control would be the rise of the Soviet Union. Shepard (Stalin) controls the Reapers (The Party), The Reapers control everyone else (The People)

A good example for merge wouth be Alexander the great or genghis khan. They ordered their men to have sex with the women of the population through forced marrage and forced sexual intercourse. This way there would be less fighting because the population would be mixed. 

[Statulos]

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

Statulos wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

Think you might be reading into it a bit too much here. You may feel this way. I think most just think it's a bad ending because it was poorly written, not because they oppose it morally.

Maybe the paralells are quite extreme but OP rises a very valid point: in Mass Effect 3 you clearly demonstrate that the sins of the fathers are not forced onto their offspring. And you do it several times!

First you start with the krogan. Mordin in ME2 points out at the reason why the salarian policy towards them, to give weapons and tech to a very aggresive race due to a planet with harsh conditions was not a good idea. If technology does not develop with that pack of knowledge that we generally call "humanities", we have a disassaster. Humanities are the electricity that makes the little red bulb of your conscience light up telling you that "just because you can does not mean you should". Asari are the prime example on this regard: they could have enslaved everyone in the galaxy quick, yet they are famous for their arts and sciences, not for the brutal capacity for destruction (and damn, their commandos can do a lot of harm).
Wrex is the key for that; he and Eve tell very clearly that for once they don´t want the krogan to be blood and guns for hire, that they want their pile of rubble planet to be a nice place to live again. Wrex very clearly points out at a millenia of war as the source for their poor situation.

Then you go to the rachni and following ME1, you discover that they are poisoned by reapers. They don´t really want to inflict suffering and missery onto other and themselves, that they simply want to have the right to live just like the rest.

And finaly the geth. You discover that quarians got very scared, that geth were attacked and that they want to be another culture that can live with the rest. In fact you can help Legion to give them real life, individual conscience and literaly, make them sentient and fully aware not just their own existence, but also a new aspect of existence: feelings. Legion feels ashamed, something that no geth has ever experimented.

Same goes for EDI on a smaller scale; she even starts understanding organic feelings, she realizes she loves Joker and that she´s willing to risk her very existence to protect him. And that right there is a very, very organic attitude.

And in the end all this is worth nothing. You have helped correcting terrible atrocities, you have helped entire forms of life and culture have a hope for a future, the notion that they can live and be respected and then you´re forced to send all down the toilet. Excelent, thanks a lot for telling me that in the end it does not matter.

All this time you have been helping yourself and others by considering that not everything is a yes/no/more or less answer, that there are infinite possibilities. Well, guess that´s not how things work...

I'm with you here. Now, some of the renegade choices *seem* similar to the rhetoric of the star-child, but I can't recall any that actually play out the same way. Usually Renegade vs. Paragon boils down to a Kantian vs. Utilitarian reaction to a situation. The ending just abandons the whole premise of the game, story, and mechanics up until that point and that includes the rhetorical messages the game had up until that point too.

Even in the case of being a Terra Firma hardcore supporter in your game, even if you trully think all non human rationality capable forms of life should be obliterated (including synthetics) you´re ultimately playing the reaper´s game effectively becoming a traitor.

Here, you have 3 choices and all those come through me is the logic of the kid-god. Even worse, we don´t really know what the hell the McGuffinlyst attached to the Citadel really does. My point would be, screw it, my galactic readiness is enough to kick your asses badly and not forcing my own species to get back to the Dark Ages.

[graciegrace]

Lambchopz wrote...

Think you might be reading into it a bit too much here. You may feel this way. I think most just think it's a bad ending because it was poorly written, not because they oppose it morally.

I don't think so.  This was actually a bit of my problem as well, but not because I legitimately thought this was intentional.  Bioware inadvertantly changed the theme of Mass Effect at the last minute to be sort of what the OP is describing.  As a writer, and as a Lit major, things like this instantly jump out at me and it ultimately is actually my biggest problem with the ending, that the theme did a 180, especially to something so morally suspect.

[Maria Caliban]

Spectre_Shepard wrote...

i must disagree. the ending sucked, sure. racist? i draw the line.

ending was terrible, but i didn't catch a whiff of intended racism

Unintended racism is still racism.

[Sashimi_taco]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Spectre_Shepard wrote...

i must disagree. the ending sucked, sure. racist? i draw the line.

ending was terrible, but i didn't catch a whiff of intended racism

Unintended racism is still racism.

I like your miranda's face along with that comment. Most people don't realize a lot of racism is not mean as racism but just racist things people think without realizing it. 

[Lethys1]

This thread is insane.  The OP is just completely wrong, I'm sorry.  The entire point of a villain is to be villainous, and to write off genocide as a topic of discussion because it shouldn't exist will make people forget about it.  It isn't offensive, stop it.


People like the OP are dangerous and have caused the Political Correct chokehold of a society we now live in, where everything is taken far too personally and everything is an attack.

[Sashimi_taco]

Lethys1 wrote...

This thread is insane.  The OP is just completely wrong, I'm sorry.  The entire point of a villain is to be villainous, and to write off genocide as a topic of discussion because it shouldn't exist will make people forget about it.  It isn't offensive, stop it.


People like the OP are dangerous and have caused the Political Correct chokehold of a society we now live in, where everything is taken far too personally and everything is an attack.

TIL that people who speak up against racist and genocidal themes in popular media are a danger to society. 

[Falcon509]

Well written and well thought out. Fantastic examination on the Catalyst and dead-on-balls accurate.

[Lethys1]

Sashimi_taco wrote...

Lethys1 wrote...

This thread is insane.  The OP is just completely wrong, I'm sorry.  The entire point of a villain is to be villainous, and to write off genocide as a topic of discussion because it shouldn't exist will make people forget about it.  It isn't offensive, stop it.


People like the OP are dangerous and have caused the Political Correct chokehold of a society we now live in, where everything is taken far too personally and everything is an attack.

TIL that people who speak up against racist and genocidal themes in popular media are a danger to society. 

No.  I'm saying that the post takes these choices and these consequences far too seriously.  We're dealing with a game that discusses the destruction of the galaxy's advanced races, obviously death and logical flaws can be a part of it.

Edit: I might as well say that the destruction of intelligent life is an offensive concept so this game is offensive.  OF COURSE IT IS, that's why we're fighting them in the end and you do get the option to do as you choose.  Actions have consequences which is what makes the choice in the end a difficult one.

Modifié par Lethys1, 16 mars 2012 - 06:36 .

[NightHawkIL]

To add to my previous post, I do find the ending racist, but the racism is between species that don't really exist. It could obviously relate to real world events, but it doesn't hit me immediately as offensive. I'm not sure if it should or not, I'll have to think about it. I'm slow to judge since I realize that there's no way anyone realized the racist implications or they would have dropped it before taking a second breath.

[Lethys1]

Sashimi_taco wrote...

Lethys1 wrote...

This thread is insane.  The OP is just completely wrong, I'm sorry.  The entire point of a villain is to be villainous, and to write off genocide as a topic of discussion because it shouldn't exist will make people forget about it.  It isn't offensive, stop it.


People like the OP are dangerous and have caused the Political Correct chokehold of a society we now live in, where everything is taken far too personally and everything is an attack.

TIL that people who speak up against racist and genocidal themes in popular media are a danger to society. 

I'm sorry, but I think the movie Schindler's List should exist.