53 réponses à ce sujet

[Beechwell]

Taleroth wrote...
Since you seemed to miss what was going on, let me explain.  The possession of Conner by the Desire demon was voluntary.  Which is stated as being the sole reason that it could be purged.  Ironic, that.

The desire it tempted him with was his desire to save his father.  And, in truth, it did that.  The Desire demon trapped the Arl to prevent the poison from killing him.

So? What does that have to do with what the desire demon did when Connor was under its control? 
And I'm not saying there may not be a little bit of Connor within the Abomination, but we all have a monster inside of us, so that doesn't make Connor "evil" or anything of that sort.

[Taleroth]

Beechwell wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
Since you seemed to miss what was going on, let me explain.  The possession of Conner by the Desire demon was voluntary.  Which is stated as being the sole reason that it could be purged.  Ironic, that.

The desire it tempted him with was his desire to save his father.  And, in truth, it did that.  The Desire demon trapped the Arl to prevent the poison from killing him.

So? What does that have to do with what the desire demon did when Connor was under its control? 
And I'm not saying there may not be a little bit of Connor within the Abomination, but we all have a monster inside of us, so that doesn't make Connor "evil" or anything of that sort.

I wasn't arguing with you.  You just seemed to lack the detail and I thought you'd like it.

[Taritu]

Axterix wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

In my opinion, it's kind of hard to claim "the point is to make us make a hard choice," when there's a very easy choice available that saves everyone.

Is it really a hard decision when there's a valid choice with all the upside and none of the downside?

Well, theoritically, the "easy" choice isn't that easy, as while you are off visiting the circle, Conner can supposedly do more evil.  So choosing to go get Circle help can potentially result in a lot more trouble.  Unfortunately, Bioware failed to back that up.  You can travel to the Circle, have to do the entire free the Circle quest line, and return, and nothing will have happened.

If you have the Circle free, go to the Circle, then return, okay, nothing happens.  But if you dally around, something bad really should have happened, to put a cost to that choice.

Exactly, it really pissed me off when I found out it's costless.  So why not, save everyone.  So much for "hard choices".

[Suron]

Realmzmaster wrote...

You can ask the Circle mages for help as long as you do not carry out the annulment. The problem is figuring out how to use the litany. If you botch the litany, you carry out the annulment. You are then left with two choices for Connor: Kill him or use blood magic to save Connor, but kill the mother. Also the quest of the Unlikely Scholar depends on successful use of the litany. You have to give BioWare a pat on the back for all the hard choices and how the choice affects other quests.

figure out how to use the litany? are you serious?

lol....

um..it's auto put on your skill/spell bar...and Wynne YELLS to use it when you need to use it...and it becomes clear after the first two times when to use it.

sorry but...figure it out? gotta be pretty slow not too

[Serogon]

Suron wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

You can ask the Circle mages for help as long as you do not carry out the annulment. The problem is figuring out how to use the litany. If you botch the litany, you carry out the annulment. You are then left with two choices for Connor: Kill him or use blood magic to save Connor, but kill the mother. Also the quest of the Unlikely Scholar depends on successful use of the litany. You have to give BioWare a pat on the back for all the hard choices and how the choice affects other quests.

figure out how to use the litany? are you serious?

lol....

um..it's auto put on your skill/spell bar...and Wynne YELLS to use it when you need to use it...and it becomes clear after the first two times when to use it.

sorry but...figure it out? gotta be pretty slow not too

I think he's on the 360. On the 360 it's shoved away in the "Advanced" section of the pause wheel thing, which most people never even bother looking at. And it doesn't tell you that they put it there.

[Beechwell]

Taritu wrote...
Exactly, it really pissed me off when I found out it's costless.  So why not, save everyone.  So much for "hard choices".

The choice is hard because you don't initially know it will be costless. But I agree that some repercussions for leaving the castle to it's fate for several days could have been included.

@Taleroth: My apologies then. I misunderstood your post

[Suron]

Taritu wrote...

Axterix wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

In my opinion, it's kind of hard to claim "the point is to make us make a hard choice," when there's a very easy choice available that saves everyone.

Is it really a hard decision when there's a valid choice with all the upside and none of the downside?

Well, theoritically, the "easy" choice isn't that easy, as while you are off visiting the circle, Conner can supposedly do more evil.  So choosing to go get Circle help can potentially result in a lot more trouble.  Unfortunately, Bioware failed to back that up.  You can travel to the Circle, have to do the entire free the Circle quest line, and return, and nothing will have happened.

If you have the Circle free, go to the Circle, then return, okay, nothing happens.  But if you dally around, something bad really should have happened, to put a cost to that choice.

Exactly, it really pissed me off when I found out it's costless.  So why not, save everyone.  So much for "hard choices".

yah on my first playthrough I really thought about my choices...because the game was HYPED by BioWare to really matter in what you decide..and paths you take..with no going back..that decisions wouldn't be clear/easy.

so when I got to this part of the game..naturally I opted to do the ritual ONLY because I thought leaving to go to the tower of magi would make something else happen...he kills someone..arl dies..SOMETHING...because of the crap BioWare spewed about the importance of choice..(don't get me wrong I still loved the game but it is maddening the claims they had on decision making ended up being no different then any other RPG out there..just with much more depth and interaction.)

Now it DID make my first play really good because I really didn't know...so I followed/RP'd what my character would decide given what he knew..not what I knew of the outcome as it was my first time playing through and I refused to read spoilers...

however now when I play it it's just "whatever"....yah...the blight is coming..this kid's been attacking the town for several nights in a row..going to the tower of magi will mean being gone for a few days..town barely survived the last battle...eh it won't matter...because I'm the grey warden...I'll just leave because nothing will happen unless my character is here to see it

kinda makes follow-up playthroughs not mean near as much..even when you discover new things...because you know..unlike what was said prior to release by Bio....that things such as this really DON'T matter

[Axterix]

Suron wrote...

sorry but...figure it out? gotta be pretty slow not too

Pretty easy to not figure it out.

The talk about the Litany says it is supposed to stop mind control and makes it sound preventative, like a buff you put up before hand.  It isn't used for that and it isn't a buff.

So you use it, and then you fight.  And more demons show up and you kill them too.  And then, what, I sided with the templars, all the mages are dead?

The game basically does a poor job of explaining what the litany is actually used for.  If they'd done a better job explaining it, the line from Wynne, which smacks of a last minute attempt to fix an issue when they noticed many people messing up on this part, wouldn't have been necessary.

[Taritu]

Beechwell wrote...

Taritu wrote...
Exactly, it really pissed me off when I found out it's costless.  So why not, save everyone.  So much for "hard choices".

The choice is hard because you don't initially know it will be costless. But I agree that some repercussions for leaving the castle to it's fate for several days could have been included.

@Taleroth: My apologies then. I misunderstood your post

Yup, and first time through, I had Isolde take it on the chin.  But now that I know it's costless I have trouble making myself do it.  (Yes, metagaming, but...)

[Axterix]

Suron wrote...

yah on my first playthrough I really thought about my choices...because the game was HYPED by BioWare to really matter in what you decide..and paths you take..with no going back..that decisions wouldn't be clear/easy.

Yeah, made me glad my goody-goody took the Go get the circle route the first time, when I hadn't saved the Circle yet.  Made doing the tower different, when I thought I had to rush.  And the Fade, grrr, the Fade, needed that over with, had to go back and save the boy before more bad stuff happened!

Added an emotional aspect that wouldn't have been there otherwise.

But now, for subsequent plays, I know it is meaningless, which sucks.

[DariusKalera]

That part in the castle really makes me wish that Bioware had not added the Circle scenario to it. You either get the kid, or the mother, but not both.



That, or add a scenario where you kill the kid, the mom jumps you for doing so and you kill her and then blame the bloody gory mess on the demon when the Arl wakes up...with a nice added Shale shrug at the end.

[Ederz]

I killed the boy as he had already killed several people and it was not worth the risk of letting him run wild even a few days with his aspirations of taking over the world with an army of undead. That being said i then had to do the magi quest wich took a while and i figured by then redcliff would be obliterated. Still Morrigan and Sten both approved of punching out the mother and killing the kid so its all good.

[Suron]

Axterix wrote...

Suron wrote...

sorry but...figure it out? gotta be pretty slow not too

Pretty easy to not figure it out.

The talk about the Litany says it is supposed to stop mind control and makes it sound preventative, like a buff you put up before hand.  It isn't used for that and it isn't a buff.

So you use it, and then you fight.  And more demons show up and you kill them too.  And then, what, I sided with the templars, all the mages are dead?

The game basically does a poor job of explaining what the litany is actually used for.  If they'd done a better job explaining it, the line from Wynne, which smacks of a last minute attempt to fix an issue when they noticed many people messing up on this part, wouldn't have been necessary.

lol..whatever you say champ

ding! fries are done...

[Serogon]

Suron wrote...

Axterix wrote...

Pretty easy to not figure it out.

The talk about the Litany says it is supposed to stop mind control and makes it sound preventative, like a buff you put up before hand.  It isn't used for that and it isn't a buff.

So you use it, and then you fight.  And more demons show up and you kill them too.  And then, what, I sided with the templars, all the mages are dead?

The game basically does a poor job of explaining what the litany is actually used for.  If they'd done a better job explaining it, the line from Wynne, which smacks of a last minute attempt to fix an issue when they noticed many people messing up on this part, wouldn't have been necessary.

lol..whatever you say champ

ding! fries are done...

Well, aren't you a douche... and thanks for ignoring what  I mentioned about the possibility of the 360.

[MatronAdena]

yup, on the 360 version I don't remember being told where to find it in the action wheel. So when I first played that fight, and Wynn first screamed to use it, I hit that left trigger, but first place I looked was I think the poisons and traps for some reason, then abilities, then skills/spell, then finally advanced. It just " at the moment" had not occurred to me to look there as the only commands in there are usually to switch weapon sets, or hold/follow.

[VanDraegon]

Beechwell wrote...

I only confronted the demon/connor directly in my thrid play through, and must say that I found this the most touching story. And you don't have to smack the mother around. Just keep talking to her.

And I didn't find the "get help from the mages" path so obvious. As Isolde points out, Connor may well strike again in the at least 2 days you will be gone. When I did get help from the circle, I fully expected to find half the people remaining in tha castle to be dead by then. Seems like an easy choice afterwards, but not when making that decision.

And you can't really fault Connor for what he did under the demon's control. Firstly, unlike the charmed templar, the demon was actually inside Connor and possesed him. The Templar was merely caught in a dream. And even if the demon used some hidden desires of Connor, its not really unnatural for a young boy to seek power and to be stronger than all those adults. But as you can see when you free Connor from that Demon, he isn't at all like that when he is himself.

I didnt really see the Circle Mages answer as all that easy either. The boy made a deal with the demon, of his own free will, to save his father and  indulge his childish fantasies of being a conquering ruler. The implication i get from the story is that while we are off chasing this possible solution, even more people are going to die. The boy is already responsible for the deaths of hundreds. Who is to says hundreds more wouldnt die while we are off chasing other solutions.

The needs of the many.....

Modifié par VanDraegon, 29 novembre 2009 - 06:11 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Not a child murderer, by canon lore you path should have seen the entity as an abomination.



That's assuming your character acted like a Templar

[Shazzie]

I didn't kill Connor, Isolde did, but I think that was harder than if I'd done it myself.

On my current playthrough, I'd done the Circle Tower prior to going to Redcliffe. I'd decided to side with the Templars this time, and I was quite pleased with myself in that it seemed that I sided with the Templars without slaughtering all the mages.... Greagoir was saying how the mages needed healing, and being taken care of, and the Chantry would come and investigate and see if any were possessed by demons. I even got positive approval from Wynne for this.

But it meant that I didn't have access to the Mages when I did Redcliffe. I spoke to Bann Teagan and Isolde but said I needed to think about my choice first. I then went and killed my way up to Connor,... I wanted to talk to him and see if I could get anything out of that. After talking for a while, I realize I'm going to need to make a decision about killing him or not, and he seemed to want to end it all...so I was really sad but preparing to go through with it , telling Connor how brave he is, and that I'll need his help being strong in this so that I can ...basically, kill him, when Isolde shows up.

Isolde is screaming and crying and not wanting to lose her baby, of course, and I'm NOT being hostile OR pushing the issue with her in this, I just start talking to her about how the demon has Connor and won't let him go. She's kneeling beside Connor and holding him and the demon in him starts talking and Isolde realizes it's never going to stop. When Connor regains control, and saying how much it hurts, Isolde is crying and telling him it's going to be over soon...

I offer to do the deed myself, but she refuses and sends me off. My final shot of her is her pulling a knife out and telling Connor 'close your eyes, baby'...



I have to say, my heart was in my throat at this and I was truly surprised that I wasn't crying. It's not something I ever want to go through again, though. I thought seeing the life's blood sucked out of Isolde and slammed into me when I chose that last time was hard enough, but I'm just gonna wimp out and make sure the Circle survives for next time.

[MadCat221]

There is a consequence for calling in the Circle mages: Connor will be taken by them after saving him.

Also, I don't think the kid really had the desire to be a conqueror, it was the demon pretending it was the kid.  It's far more plausible that the demon had visions of conquest, given the nature of fade demons...

And the kid did not fully understand just what he was dealing with when the desire demon confronted him. Remember, young adult mages can just as easily succumb to a demon during their Harrowing. How is a kid who hasn't had the benefit of the Circle going to fare?

It's the same reason why formal law-binding contracts cannot be made with children in the real world.

Modifié par MadCat221, 29 novembre 2009 - 05:44 .

[DirkD13]

On my second play through I killed Ulgrin (or whatever his name was) so fast that i never had to use the litany.
Ended up doing the annulment anyways after saving the mages. 

Modifié par DirkD13, 29 novembre 2009 - 05:44 .

[asaiasai]

I do agree that the choice to get the circle did not feel like i was pressured, my first run through i did not daly around i ran straight the the circle fixed thier mess, prevailed upon them go to Redcliffe. Hindsight being 20/20 i always do the circle quest first A) for Wynne and the options getting it done early provides in Redcliffe. I think there should have been some sort of time frame on the quest like a countdown timer with villagers and soldiers, where there is a constant countdown while you are away. But i suppose there would be the "countdown sucks" folks so in the end it is still done well.



Asai

[Lumenadducere]

Archonsg wrote...

This is where I think Bioware outdid himselves. For those who have been paying attention, people who were taken by desire demons do things they do because its something that they always wanted. The templar in the mages tower, attacked you because he really thought he was defending his family and wife, Wilhelm's daugther allowed herself to be possesed, anyone caught that bit when she said "no I won't allow you in!" when she realize the demon's evil intent, if you tried to fight the demon while she still thought of kitty as something to be loved?

Essentially, even though it could have been argued that it was the demon who made Connor do what he did, Connor at some level wanted power and did not care really care much for the people living in the village, behaviour typical of a spoiled brat whose mother "protected" him and most definitely catered to his every whim wouldn't you say?

Connor's desire was to save his father from the poison, not power.  That was the deal for allowing the demon entrance, and that was what Connor wished for.  He's a naive and innocent little kid who just wanted to save his daddy.  The ensuing events with the walking corpses was the desire demon's work.  Connor didn't want any of that.

[FalloutBoy]

Taleroth wrote...

In my opinion, it's kind of hard to claim "the point is to make us make a hard choice," when there's a very easy choice available that saves everyone.

Is it really a hard decision when there's a valid choice with all the upside and none of the downside?

It is entirely possible that a person might have done the Circle Tower first and either chose to kill the mages or just messed up the boss fight and let them all die. That leaves you with two choices in Redcliffe, both of which suck. It's all Jowan's fault anyway.

[Forsakerr]

FalloutBoy wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

In my opinion, it's kind of hard to claim "the point is to make us make a hard choice," when there's a very easy choice available that saves everyone.

Is it really a hard decision when there's a valid choice with all the upside and none of the downside?

It is entirely possible that a person might have done the Circle Tower first and either chose to kill the mages or just messed up the boss fight and let them all die. That leaves you with two choices in Redcliffe, both of which suck. It's all Jowan's fault anyway.

it s not Jowan's fault it is Isolde's if she would nt have been selfish none of this would have happened , true that he poisoned the Arl but he could nt have done it without having her bring him in for secret training as bann Teagan said

[cralexns]

In my first play-through I slapped Isolde silly and slit the kid's throat, it wasn't a hard decision and I was delightfully surprised by both this options availability and how it played out!



Subsequently I tried all the other resolutions and I found those decisions harder, primarily because I had to jump through more hoops to get done with it.