248 réponses à ce sujet

[thehomeworld]

LolaLei wrote...

Also, the god child tells you that if you choose the destroy option then all synthetic life will die. Now, baring in mind Shepard is part synthetic and he survives the blast is a bit suspect. Even stranger is that Joker is able to land/crash the Normandy on a planet when he shouldn't have been able to since the Normandy is EDI and EDI is synthetic, there's no way he would have survived that crash without EDI helping him... baring in mind what happened when Joker tried to pull that stunt in ME2.

So the game is either fatally flawed or it's the indoctrination/hallucination theory.

The kid said if you picked the destroy option you too would die because shep has soo much tech in him that he literally can't live without it and if you don't get the good ending it looks like yes he dies in the explosion if you get the good ending he wakes up on earth and so the kid lied.

[Zhuril]

mrderp27 wrote...

illusive man calls anderson stuck in his ways despite the fact that anderson was one of the first people to acknowledge the reaper's existence

The Illusive Man is refering to Anderson's "Way" of wanting to killing a threat, instead of finding an alternative(Since he used to be a soldier, especially with the bad rep he got thanks to Saren.(Destroyed a lot of innocent people to kill the target)

[Halo Quea]

thehomeworld wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Also, the god child tells you that if you choose the destroy option then all synthetic life will die. Now, baring in mind Shepard is part synthetic and he survives the blast is a bit suspect. Even stranger is that Joker is able to land/crash the Normandy on a planet when he shouldn't have been able to since the Normandy is EDI and EDI is synthetic, there's no way he would have survived that crash without EDI helping him... baring in mind what happened when Joker tried to pull that stunt in ME2.

So the game is either fatally flawed or it's the indoctrination/hallucination theory.

The kid said if you picked the destroy option you too would die because shep has soo much tech in him that he literally can't live without it and if you don't get the good ending it looks like yes he dies in the explosion if you get the good ending he wakes up on earth and so the kid lied.

That ending implies that all tech is evil, and that even someone with a pacemaker, prosthesis, artifical heart or lung has to die as well. 

This is why I say that all of space god boy's choices are false choices.   It also means that space god boy is FORCING Shepard to accept those choices as the only ones he's allowed to make.  It's just another kind of control. 

[Shaoken]

mrderp27 wrote...

illusive man calls anderson stuck in his ways despite the fact that anderson was one of the first people to acknowledge the reaper's existence

That's not a plot hole or an inconsistancy; TIM is critising Shepard and Anderson for wanting to destroy the Reapers instead of controlling them, note that he brings up Anderson's occupation as well when he says it.

[MadMatt910]

bump

[Eterna]

 "ME2 - Why did the relay exploding destory the system in arrival, but didn't in ME3?"

To quote myself:

When Shepard makes his/her choice the citadel releases the effect, you see the effect wash over eath and then hit the mass relay. There is a brief moment where the mass relay spins alot, it then sends the energy to the next relay. And there is the key: THE ENERGY IN THE MASS RELAY IS GONE WHEN THE RELAY EXPLODES. The exploding relay is empty and is therefore incapable of causing a super nova.

 This process repeats in each system. When you see the galaxy map and see the explosions in each system that's not the mass relay, that's they catalysts effect being spread, the twinkle afterwards is the relay exploding.

 Arrival caused a supernova because we threw a rock into a fully functioning relay. 

Also, plenty of those can be explained and are not plot holes. 

[ulotooma]

Eyjh wrote...

Why would the reapers even allow Shepherd to control them? Technically that does not solve any of their problems.
Pay close attention to the scene depicting the chain explosion of the Mass Relays, it doesn't start in the Sol system but in Batarian space, but the previous animation clearly shows the the Sol relay was the first to explode, because the Citadel is in the system.
In all previous cases, the subtitle always correctly tells you who the person is, even before they introduce themselves in the game. i.e. Saren was subtitled 'Saren' the name was revealed to the player via dialogue. The 'Child', however, is subtitled 'The Child', not the 'Catalyst', although he claims to be the Catalyst.
How does Shepherd survive a violent re-entry to earth in the Destroy ending? We know that Shepherd is not very good at surviving re-entries into planets, despite how tough he is.
How does Shepherd know how to open the Citedal's arms?
Why is he contacted only by Admiral Hacket and Anderson? If he had communications, shouldn't he also be contacted by the Normandy and the ground team?
The Illusive man seems completely out of character (although this may be due to indoctrination)
The destructive explosion of the Mass Relays should wipe out the entire system.

More to come.

As far as where the explosion started, it was the art team's laziness.  Sad but true.

And the "control" option doesn't make sense for a host of reasons.  When the Catalyst says that you can do what the Illusive Man can't because "we could control him, unlike you", ummm.... wut?  You are the creator of a race of extremely hyper intelligent deaththedestroyerofworlds and you are able to be controlled just by someone placing their hands on two bars?    And why couldn't they control Shepard?  Shep was exposed to Reaper tech just as much as TIM was.  Hell, he actually took a money shot from Harbinger's cannon right in his face (snickersnicker, sorry I was acting as the person who came up with Ash's portrayal in ME3) 

And why didn't Shep just say when presented with the option "you know, Illusive Man tried that, and he went crazy, and (if you were paragon) killed himself to prevent what you are asking me to do.  For a machine/all knowing deity/whatevertheheckyouare, you have some really wack logic!

[ulotooma]

jumpingkaede wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

How is reapers killing organics any better than synthetics built by organics killing the organics?

Would just like to point out that a lot of people say this isn't a plothole (I'm looking at you Penny Arcade) because the Reapers aren't killing organics they are pruning organics.  That is, they are only harvesting advanced civilizations (e.g., Protheans 50,000 years ago) while leaving behind the unadvanced ones (e.g., Hanar, Asari, Salarians 50,000 years ago).

As I read it, that only really works if one or more of the following is true:

1)  If synthetics take over somehow, they go from planet-to-planet, system-to-system, wiping out all organic life.  So they would've wiped out the Protheans 50,000 years ago, and then also wiped out the Hanar, Asari, and Salarians, etc.  

2) The reapers, by leaving the Mass Relays behind, have the evolution process down to a science: it takes 50,000 years for organic species -- any organic species -- to build synthetics and AI up to the point where they become a real threat to organics.  Assumption is that the Quarians wouldn't have built the Geth say, 1,000 years ago, and then doomed the galaxy as in (1) before the Reapers could arrive.

3) After 50,000 years in this cycle the Geth weren't really a threat to organics so Sovereign thought, "Screw it, if they won't revolt against organics on their own I'm going to make them." 



4) That there's a reason to maintain these cycles and prevent the AIs from taking over.

5) Anything else?

The original concept of the Reapers was a fascinating one.  a race of sentient beings, not synthetic, not organic, but something far greater.  Their goal, at the height of existence of a civilization, exterminate it.  Hide in Dark Space.  Use proxies like the Collectors (who are always interested in trading for galactic specimens to expirement on them) to determine if society has evolved.  Then have a vanguard signal the Keepers, and exterminate.  (Based solely off the discussions with Reapers in the first 2 ME games)

The entire point of the Reapers seemed to be they were cold and calculating, exterminating the advanced life so others could live afterwards.  In ME3, this theme seems to be continued, especially if you have Javik.  He talks about the dominance of his society, how they prevented the advancment of others, and once they were gone, the asari/turians/salarians/etc were able to finally advance.

They should've stayed with this kind of plotline, not "dark energy" or the "singularity event."  There's no need to develop a deep theory for why these evil beings do what they do.  As Sovreign said, "we simply are" and the very attempt to even comprehend them (breaking the cliche of the villian always revealing the rationale behind his plan) is met with a rebuke.

[Zhuril]

ulotooma wrote...

Eyjh wrote...

Why would the reapers even allow Shepherd to control them? Technically that does not solve any of their problems.
Pay close attention to the scene depicting the chain explosion of the Mass Relays, it doesn't start in the Sol system but in Batarian space, but the previous animation clearly shows the the Sol relay was the first to explode, because the Citadel is in the system.
In all previous cases, the subtitle always correctly tells you who the person is, even before they introduce themselves in the game. i.e. Saren was subtitled 'Saren' the name was revealed to the player via dialogue. The 'Child', however, is subtitled 'The Child', not the 'Catalyst', although he claims to be the Catalyst.
How does Shepherd survive a violent re-entry to earth in the Destroy ending? We know that Shepherd is not very good at surviving re-entries into planets, despite how tough he is.
How does Shepherd know how to open the Citedal's arms?
Why is he contacted only by Admiral Hacket and Anderson? If he had communications, shouldn't he also be contacted by the Normandy and the ground team?
The Illusive man seems completely out of character (although this may be due to indoctrination)
The destructive explosion of the Mass Relays should wipe out the entire system.

More to come.

As far as where the explosion started, it was the art team's laziness.  Sad but true.

And the "control" option doesn't make sense for a host of reasons.  When the Catalyst says that you can do what the Illusive Man can't because "we could control him, unlike you", ummm.... wut?  You are the creator of a race of extremely hyper intelligent deaththedestroyerofworlds and you are able to be controlled just by someone placing their hands on two bars?    And why couldn't they control Shepard?  Shep was exposed to Reaper tech just as much as TIM was.  Hell, he actually took a money shot from Harbinger's cannon right in his face (snickersnicker, sorry I was acting as the person who came up with Ash's portrayal in ME3) 

And why didn't Shep just say when presented with the option "you know, Illusive Man tried that, and he went crazy, and (if you were paragon) killed himself to prevent what you are asking me to do.  For a machine/all knowing deity/whatevertheheckyouare, you have some really wack logic!

How was Shep exposed to reaper tech just as much as TIM was? TIM moved the remains of the human reaper INTO HIS BASE. Hypothetically, that's how TIM became indoctrinated.

And you apparently weren't paying attention as Sanctuary, where it discusses that TIM, with the help of Miranda's father, discovered a way to control the Reapers. If he were indoctrinated at the time he made that log, the reapers would not have needed to attack the base to start with, which is also another point made in Sanctuary. The reason why TIM didn't use that tech, is because the technology he aquared needed to be in close proximity to the Reapers. It is not known that TIM ever got close enough to a living reaper to use it, but he did aquire knowledge that the crucible could control the reapers(in which he was correct)

The Catalyst says Shepard could control the reapers is because he was not yet indoctrinated. Even the VI on TIM's base told him he was being recovered from Indoctrinated Forces, and it showed on Thessia that he had the ability to detect indoctrination. It was also heavily established that in ME1 that it could take even weeks of *prolonged* exposure to become indoctrinated, which is also established with the scientists on the derelist Reaper in ME2.

[Sirartistic]

Lets face it, the ME story is a mess, but what makes up for it is the strong relationships, graphics/ atmosphere, music, gameplay, and the Cerberus sub-plots. Actually come to think about it, Bioware should have simply made the Reapers a weapon that was created by the Protheans to control the galaxy. The Protheans lost control of them, and the Reapers became trapped in a cycle of destruction. In other words they are killing and saying scary stuff because they are programed to intimidate and kill.

[Kusatsu]

If the reapers moved the citadel to earth to stop them from getting onto it, why did they leave a portal open?

[timmy166]

ME3 - Why doesn't shepard question Starchild or mention peace with Geth or EDI?

this! a thousand times this!

the core of the resolution of the series is that the reapers harvest organics because of inevitable strife with synthetics.

but the paragon way allows for geth and quarian unity (through Legion's status as Shep's Bro) and EDI to rewrite her programming with upstanding morals from Earth's history books. WHY DOESNT STARCHILD UNDERSTAND THIS!?!?!? god-like being my ass...

[MadMatt910]

bump since other threads are talking about this now

[M12311]

nice collection

[Ultra Prism]

only answer is LOTS OF SPECULATION and Space magic ... solves everything ... geez Bioware please create newer endings to add to current ones and explain why Catalyst is a KID who has toys which are reapers ... seriously

[Spyre2001]

bucyrus5000 wrote...

I did some cleaning up of the topic, I hope it helps.

Ending Critizisims, Complaints, Plotholes, & Inconsistencies...

• ME3
  - Why would synthetics possibly have DNA, given its a very poor method
  to store information that is corrupted on every replication?

[*]

[*]

I have to point out this is incorrect. DNA is
currently the most advanced means we know of for storing information. It
can store more information more densely than any technological device we currently poses.
Imagine a flash drive that could store the entire history of humanity, every movie, book, play, game, and etc. with plenty of room to spare and then you'd have an idea of how our technology compares in terms of data storage space to DNA. Also it is not that easily corrupted otherwise life would not be
possible.

Modifié par Spyre2001, 25 mars 2012 - 08:57 .

[Maro]

The cycle of life ends with death, though life continues through progeny.  As far as we understand it, DNA is at the crux of this process, the process behind creation and eventual death.

We know the Reapers have gone through many cycles exterminating life, developed life.  Life that has reached maturity in technological advancement, or at least enough technological maturity to discover the Mass Effect relays.

We face death in life's natural cycle.  Reapers bring death in cycles.  Our lives end in a natural cycle, it is programmed into our DNA.  Maybe a simpler example would be to look at a single cell and how it is programmed in-a-sense to die, with our understanding about a cell's death being tied to telomere length.  Perhaps the Reapers represent the process of life in a macrocosmic sense.

We know many galactic lives end with Reapers.  We know our life ends when the "Reaper" comes for us.

In this cycle we have Shepard and deus ex machina.

Catalyst recognizes Shepard as a good substrate, synthesis occurs, and now we have our new Adam and Eve; Joker and EDI-in-the-Eva-frame on some Eden-like paradise-of-a-planet.  Instead of extinction this cycle, life had found a better way.  Maybe, if the story continues, we'll find out if the better way has worked out or not.

[Spyre2001]

Maro wrote...

We face death in life's natural cycle.  Reapers bring death in cycles.  Our lives end in a natural cycle, it is programmed into our DNA.  Maybe a simpler example would be to look at a single cell and how it is programmed in-a-sense to die, with our understanding about a cell's death being tied to telomere length.  Perhaps the Reapers represent the process of life in a macrocosmic sense.

Well the tetomere length does not effect how long the cell lives. It effects how many times the cell reproduces. Normally the body is constantly regenerating at a very slow rate. When the tetomere run out it stops replacing itself. Research into anti-aging are looking into preventing this loss or possibly regenrating it. Cancer cells don't have this problem which is why they grow so rapidily without stopping. Some researchers even believe they could be the key to stopping aging. The more science learns about our biology the more it seems the enviornment causing damage to our bodies is the cause of most age related problems.

In so many Sci-Fi works synthetics are tried to be portraded as superior to organics because they don't age. But they wear out the same as any organic. It's just easier for them to replace parts or transfer their programing to a new body if need be.

[huntsman2310]

Actually I believe that the reason Vega hears a hum in the Normandy wasn't due to indoctrination.

You can actually hear that hum on both Normandys so its probably just the engine of the ship working.

[Barict78]

Well Thought out and put together and ALL are valid points that take at least some "stretching" of the Lore to explain.

[Velocithon]

Wow...just wow.

[Iwillbeback]

Why do people still go on about the Relay's exploding.

Ah f**k it, there is no reason they didn't go super nova.

[Fliprot]

Bumpity bumpy  bump.

Modifié par Fliprot, 03 avril 2012 - 05:39 .

[MadMatt910]

huntsman2310 wrote...

Actually I believe that the reason Vega hears a hum in the Normandy wasn't due to indoctrination.

You can actually hear that hum on both Normandys so its probably just the engine of the ship working.

I dont deny that this is probably, though his description is pretty close to the codex entry on indoctrination. Quite possibly a coincidence, but it could be contributing to something. A line of dialogue that dismisses it would be nice, if it isnt relevant that is.