248 réponses à ce sujet

[Diego Benitez]

MadMatt910 wrote...

FOX216BC wrote...

How did anderson get to the control panel before shepard?
Wasn't he running behind shepard and how did he get up there whitout a scratch?

This brushed off as anderson coming out at a different point to shepard

Also Anderson says that his location is shifting. the portal 2 interchangeable testing facilities comes to mind where it looks like its progression but its a constantly changeing space

[MadMatt910]

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

Kanub wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

1) In ME2, what was the point of the human reaper or the collectors?

2) How is reapers killing organics any better than synthetics built by organics killing the organics?

Right, I don't like the ending, but those two are explained.

1) Ghost Boy tells you that the Reapers 'record' each species they wipe out as a means of honouring them (in a sick kinda way.) The human reaper wasn't for any particular war reason, it was just a record of humanity for their scary archives.

2) Because the reapers don't wipe out all organice life, just the advanced stuff. Their argument is that eventually these advanced species would make synthetics that WOULD wipe out all organic life, completely. The reapers allow unevolved and primitve life to continue, untill such a point where it has the technology to be a threat to itself. 

Thus the claim that they are in fact preserving life in the galaxy.

Also, about the human Reaper, it is my understanding that the "cuddlefish" look all of the Reapers have is just a shell and that inside of that the Reaper looks like whatever it was made out of. That means that the human Reaper would have been put in one of those shells and would have looked like all of the other Reapers.

Dont suppose you have a link to any sort of source?

[eran5005]

Avissel wrote...

eran5005 wrote...

Some of the claims here are valid and point out serious holes in the plot and the lore, but nothing deal breaking in my opinion - inventing an entire universe around such a long and elaborate story is not easy, its actually DAMN HARD and you are bound to make mistakes and dedicated fans are bound to find them, i don't think anyone should think less of BioWare for them.
Also, some people here are damn outright nitpicking at tiniest most insignificant details they can get their hands on and i think that's not fair, you all had a ton of fun playing these games, every single one of you enjoyed this world to bits and now that the trilogy is over you enjoy picking at the some small silly mistakes sleep deprived developers overlooked when they were making one of the best gaming experiences ever?
For shame people, for shame.

People nitpick because they care. Go to an scifi convention and listen to the Star Wars/Trek fans. It is our emotional investment in the univearse that drives us to question it.

Constructive criticism i can understnad and i try to give it out as much as possible myself, like i said - some hole are serious and should be mended as possible - which is even harder than making stuff from nothing since everything is connected and changing one thing means you have to change 10 other, but still its the right thing to do.
I referring more to those who complain about the most insignificant things just because they can and have some or so grudges about the endings or whatever (which may be justified in themselves but still don't excuse this)
I don't want to give any examples because it might give the wrong impression that i have something against someone specific or that i think someones opinion is less valid than mine, because it is most certainly NOT the case. Just go through  some of the comments here and really look at them, i'm sure you will see how picky and non constructive some of them are.

[Avissel]

MadMatt910 wrote...

Dont suppose you have a link to any sort of source?

The game is his source.

The catalyst says they perserve the advanced civilizaitons in Reaper form, but leave the less advanced ones alone.

This way life continues but never gets TOO advanced that it would create synthetics that wipe out all life.

Course it's still kinda silly cause the Geth were created like 300 years ago and didn't start killing organics until Sovreign convinced them too.

[Dimensio]

jumpingkaede wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

How is reapers killing organics any better than synthetics built by organics killing the organics?

Would just like to point out that a lot of people say this isn't a plothole (I'm looking at you Penny Arcade) because the Reapers aren't killing organics they are pruning organics.  That is, they are only harvesting advanced civilizations (e.g., Protheans 50,000 years ago) while leaving behind the unadvanced ones (e.g., Hanar, Asari, Salarians 50,000 years ago).

As I read it, that only really works if one or more of the following is true:

1)  If synthetics take over somehow, they go from planet-to-planet, system-to-system, wiping out all organic life.  So they would've wiped out the Protheans 50,000 years ago, and then also wiped out the Hanar, Asari, and Salarians, etc.  

2) The reapers, by leaving the Mass Relays behind, have the evolution process down to a science: it takes 50,000 years for organic species -- any organic species -- to build synthetics and AI up to the point where they become a real threat to organics.  Assumption is that the Quarians wouldn't have built the Geth say, 1,000 years ago, and then doomed the galaxy as in (1) before the Reapers could arrive.

3) After 50,000 years in this cycle the Geth weren't really a threat to organics so Sovereign thought, "Screw it, if they won't revolt against organics on their own I'm going to make them." 



4) That there's a reason to maintain these cycles and prevent the AIs from taking over.

5) Anything else?

I can accept that the Reapers believe that war between synthetics and organics is inevitable and that lasting peace between them is impossible even if that belief is, in-universe, untrue.  I can accept also, that the Catalyst holds such a belief even if that belief is, in-universe, untrue.  Both positions would at least establish a reasonable motive for the antagonists.  I could even accept that the Reapers themselves do not fully understand their motives, and are trusting the motives of the Catalyst.

However, the inability to extensively question the Catalyst can never allow discussion of such themes.  A Shepard who brokered peace between the Quarians and the Geth can never challenge the Catalyst's claims.  Such a challenge would enable the Catalyst to offer defense, or imply fallibility.  Unfortunately, the opportunity for such a challenge never occurs, and instead Shepard must -- possibly irrationally -- accept without question the claims of the Catalyst.

[Shallyah]

OP is really shortsighted. Most of the answers are in the games to be found and some of the questions are wrong assumptions/wrongly phrased.

[leapingmonkeys]

To my mind, if one is going to try to view this as a literary work of "art" and not a game, then these are the points that invalidate the "art":

1) If the god-child in Citadel is using the Reapers as his "solution" then what the heck is going on in ME1 with the Reaper trying to destroy the Citadel?

2) We are told that mass relays explode with the force of a super nova and would therefore exterminate all life in a system where they were destroyed. And yet, magically, this doesn't happen in the ending.

3) The god-child states that synthetics and organics cannot co-exist, but Shepard just brokered peace with the Geth and EDI is clearly integrating smoothly with the organics (very smoothing with one particular organic).

4) Even if one accepts the premise that there is some sort of fundemental divide between synthetics and organics, why is killing organics every 50K the only solution? Why not separate them, for example? Everything a synthetics race is created, the Reapers come in and give them a place to live far, far away from the organics. Heck, you could just tell the organics that fact and problem is pretty much solved.

[MadMatt910]

Shallyah wrote...

OP is really shortsighted. Most of the answers are in the games to be found and some of the questions are wrong assumptions/wrongly phrased.

Care to elaborate?

[Diego Benitez]

MadMatt910 wrote...

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

Kanub wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

1) In ME2, what was the point of the human reaper or the collectors?

2) How is reapers killing organics any better than synthetics built by organics killing the organics?

Right, I don't like the ending, but those two are explained.

1) Ghost Boy tells you that the Reapers 'record' each species they wipe out as a means of honouring them (in a sick kinda way.) The human reaper wasn't for any particular war reason, it was just a record of humanity for their scary archives.

2) Because the reapers don't wipe out all organice life, just the advanced stuff. Their argument is that eventually these advanced species would make synthetics that WOULD wipe out all organic life, completely. The reapers allow unevolved and primitve life to continue, untill such a point where it has the technology to be a threat to itself. 

Thus the claim that they are in fact preserving life in the galaxy.

Also, about the human Reaper, it is my understanding that the "cuddlefish" look all of the Reapers have is just a shell and that inside of that the Reaper looks like whatever it was made out of. That means that the human Reaper would have been put in one of those shells and would have looked like all of the other Reapers.

Dont suppose you have a link to any sort of source?

You mean other than the human reaper looking like a human
 http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=1

[Montana]

How does Joker and the Normandy pick up your squad, beat the energy wave to the relay and then crashes on an unknown jungle planet?
Did they all abandon the fight prematurely?

And is the jungle planet the same planet as the post credits Stargazer conversation? The moons look similar.

Why are you dumped back on the Normandy after the credits/Stargazer, like nothings happened.
Wasn't this supposed to be THE ending.
It makes no sense to do dlc's after Shep has destroyed the relays and most likely died/become something else.

[jumpingkaede]

Dimensio wrote...

I can accept that the Reapers believe that war between synthetics and organics is inevitable and that lasting peace between them is impossible even if that belief is, in-universe, untrue.  I can accept also, that the Catalyst holds such a belief even if that belief is, in-universe, untrue.  Both positions would at least establish a reasonable motive for the antagonists.  I could even accept that the Reapers themselves do not fully understand their motives, and are trusting the motives of the Catalyst.

However, the inability to extensively question the Catalyst can never allow discussion of such themes.  A Shepard who brokered peace between the Quarians and the Geth can never challenge the Catalyst's claims.  Such a challenge would enable the Catalyst to offer defense, or imply fallibility.  Unfortunately, the opportunity for such a challenge never occurs, and instead Shepard must -- possibly irrationally -- accept without question the claims of the Catalyst.

I agree.  I also find it humorous (though not in a good way) that the starchild, whom Shepard had never met before and has no reason to believe or trust, tells Shepard to take a running leap into a glowing beam of light... and Shepard DOES IT.

That's a Conrad Verner move.  

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 16 mars 2012 - 03:07 .

[MadMatt910]

Diego Benitez wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

Kanub wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

1) In ME2, what was the point of the human reaper or the collectors?

2) How is reapers killing organics any better than synthetics built by organics killing the organics?

Right, I don't like the ending, but those two are explained.

1) Ghost Boy tells you that the Reapers 'record' each species they wipe out as a means of honouring them (in a sick kinda way.) The human reaper wasn't for any particular war reason, it was just a record of humanity for their scary archives.

2) Because the reapers don't wipe out all organice life, just the advanced stuff. Their argument is that eventually these advanced species would make synthetics that WOULD wipe out all organic life, completely. The reapers allow unevolved and primitve life to continue, untill such a point where it has the technology to be a threat to itself. 

Thus the claim that they are in fact preserving life in the galaxy.

Also, about the human Reaper, it is my understanding that the "cuddlefish" look all of the Reapers have is just a shell and that inside of that the Reaper looks like whatever it was made out of. That means that the human Reaper would have been put in one of those shells and would have looked like all of the other Reapers.

Dont suppose you have a link to any sort of source?

You mean other than the human reaper looking like a human
 http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=1

Fair answer, does anyone know if i just missed this in the codex, or if its only know because of what is sia din that interview?

EDIT: my question was about knowing the insides are different, rather than did the human reaper look human

Modifié par MadMatt910, 16 mars 2012 - 03:09 .

[Mandemon]

About wiping out synthetic life...

What IS synthetic life? Where do you draw the line? It can think for itself? And how do you wipe it out? Kill it's processes? Why not then just restart the program? Or does it fry out the systems? Why did Normandy keep functioning?

[BigBubbaBacon]

MadMatt910 wrote...

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

Kanub wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

1) In ME2, what was the point of the human reaper or the collectors?

2) How is reapers killing organics any better than synthetics built by organics killing the organics?

Right, I don't like the ending, but those two are explained.

1) Ghost Boy tells you that the Reapers 'record' each species they wipe out as a means of honouring them (in a sick kinda way.) The human reaper wasn't for any particular war reason, it was just a record of humanity for their scary archives.

2) Because the reapers don't wipe out all organice life, just the advanced stuff. Their argument is that eventually these advanced species would make synthetics that WOULD wipe out all organic life, completely. The reapers allow unevolved and primitve life to continue, untill such a point where it has the technology to be a threat to itself. 

Thus the claim that they are in fact preserving life in the galaxy.

Also, about the human Reaper, it is my understanding that the "cuddlefish" look all of the Reapers have is just a shell and that inside of that the Reaper looks like whatever it was made out of. That means that the human Reaper would have been put in one of those shells and would have looked like all of the other Reapers.

Dont suppose you have a link to any sort of source?

http://masseffect.wi...e_of_Extinction  "The extinction events may be part of the Reapers' reproductive cycle, in which all sentient life in the galaxy is harvested and essentially melted down into techno-organic Reaper shells based on the individual species' physical form, as seen with the Human-Reaper in Masss Effect 2."

But it says that the Reaper looks like whatever it was made from but yet they all look the same? Like I said, the idea of them being made and then put into a "shell" or "ship" is simply my understanding based on how they look and how they are apparently made, it very well may prove to be false.

Modifié par BigBubbaBacon, 16 mars 2012 - 03:11 .

[DraCZeQQ]

Apart from obvious "why didnt Reapers turn off the Mass Relays", we can get to "Why didnt Reapers *change password* on the Citadel?"

Plot tells us: Indoctrinated TIM learns that The Citadel is the missing part of object that would threaten Reapers existence and that this object is very real ... so Reapers seize control of the Citadel (this part makes sense, even tho I dont understand why Reapers didnt go for the Citadel first, as this would give them control over Mass Relays etc.).

Now, when Reapers seized citadel, they left it internally un-guarded, they didnt *change the password* and basically did nothing to secure it? Also they made transport beam go one room from a console that opens the citadel? unsecured console that anyone can use?

[Dimensio]

leapingmonkeys wrote...

To my mind, if one is going to try to view this as a literary work of "art" and not a game, then these are the points that invalidate the "art":

1) If the god-child in Citadel is using the Reapers as his "solution" then what the heck is going on in ME1 with the Reaper trying to destroy the Citadel?

2) We are told that mass relays explode with the force of a super nova and would therefore exterminate all life in a system where they were destroyed. And yet, magically, this doesn't happen in the ending.

3) The god-child states that synthetics and organics cannot co-exist, but Shepard just brokered peace with the Geth and EDI is clearly integrating smoothly with the organics (very smoothing with one particular organic).

4) Even if one accepts the premise that there is some sort of fundemental divide between synthetics and organics, why is killing organics every 50K the only solution? Why not separate them, for example? Everything a synthetics race is created, the Reapers come in and give them a place to live far, far away from the organics. Heck, you could just tell the organics that fact and problem is pretty much solved.

Soverign was attempting to gain control of the Citadel; it made no attempt to destroy it.  Damage did occur, but presumably such damage is common during the end of every cycle and is ultimately repaired.

Presumably, the relays broke apart but did not explode as was seen in The Arrival.  The relays may have been used to power the effect wave, using the energy in a non-destructive fashion.

The inability to challenge, even futilely, the motives of the Catalyst is a significant flaw of the narrative.

I can accept that the motives and methods of the Reapers are flawed, so long as the Reapers or their controller does not recognize or accept these flaws; in so doing, their motives need not change to be reasonable within the narrative.  The inability to directly address these flaws, however, is a flaw of the narrative.

[Aurvant]

Here's my contribution:

Where is the Catalyst?
Is it part of the Citadel?
Why is it projected as a child from Shepard's memories?
Can it read minds?
Is it an advanced AI or is it a space ghost?
How is it possible, in an era of space suits, is it possible nobody had ever been to the area that contained the control panel for the reapers?
It's completely visable, so why haven't people investigated it?
If the catalyst had always been there what was the point of Saren and Soverign?
Why does the Catalyst speak completely different from the way other reapers do?
Both Soverign and Harbinger speak as if they are Gods. Soverign, I believe, states they are incomprehensible to understand and "have always been", so why does The Catalyst essentially refute the supreme nature of the Reapers reducing them to worker drones?

Good luck people.

[Spectre_Shepard]

its really really bad. there are more than just those

[MadMatt910]

jreezy wrote...

I'm not seeing "lore inconsistencies" in most of that list, I'm seeing "I don't understand any of this".

Hence plot holes/lore inconsistencies

i.e. things that make little or no logical sense with the information avaliable to us

[DraCZeQQ]

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

Kanub wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

1) In ME2, what was the point of the human reaper or the collectors?

2) How is reapers killing organics any better than synthetics built by organics killing the organics?

Right, I don't like the ending, but those two are explained.

1) Ghost Boy tells you that the Reapers 'record' each species they wipe out as a means of honouring them (in a sick kinda way.) The human reaper wasn't for any particular war reason, it was just a record of humanity for their scary archives.

2) Because the reapers don't wipe out all organice life, just the advanced stuff. Their argument is that eventually these advanced species would make synthetics that WOULD wipe out all organic life, completely. The reapers allow unevolved and primitve life to continue, untill such a point where it has the technology to be a threat to itself. 

Thus the claim that they are in fact preserving life in the galaxy.

Also, about the human Reaper, it is my understanding that the "cuddlefish" look all of the Reapers have is just a shell and that inside of that the Reaper looks like whatever it was made out of. That means that the human Reaper would have been put in one of those shells and would have looked like all of the other Reapers.

Dont suppose you have a link to any sort of source?

http://masseffect.wi...e_of_Extinction  "The extinction events may be part of the Reapers' reproductive cycle, in which all sentient life in the galaxy is harvested and essentially melted down into techno-organic Reaper shells based on the individual species' physical form, as seen with the Human-Reaper in Masss Effect 2."

But it says that the Reaper looks like whatever it was made from but yet they all look the same? Like I said, this is simply my understanding, it very well may prove to be false.

Well for this same question I got answer that the species physical form shell is infact INNER SHELL, protected by C'thullu outer shell ... ie. Human reaper would have been sitting somewhere inside (most likely some kind of command room)

[MadMatt910]

Spectre_Shepard wrote...

its really really bad. there are more than just those

Yeah, my idea is to update the OP later with everything other people have provided, remove answered questions, add more etc.

[Dimensio]

Mandemon wrote...

About wiping out synthetic life...

What IS synthetic life? Where do you draw the line? It can think for itself? And how do you wipe it out? Kill it's processes? Why not then just restart the program? Or does it fry out the systems? Why did Normandy keep functioning?

"Synthetic life" is a misnomer.  The construction, by human operation, of a bacteria from isolated organic compounds would produce "synthetic life".

A more accurate descriptor for the beings claimed to be "synthetics" in the Mass Effect universe is "computer intelligence".

[Deventh]

I think you forgot some:
-How does Anderson gets to the control panel first when he said he was following you?
-Why do you have unlimited bullets in the citadel?
-Why isn't there a beam going down when you move through the bodies and the chasm?
-Where did Illusive man came from? He wasn't anywhere in the room.
-Why does some of the bodies look like Ashley and Kaidan?
-How does Hackett knows you made it to the Citadel without even speaking to him? They said "No one made it to the beam"
-How does the illusive man survives the control of the reapers, but Shepard doesn't?
-Where does your squadmates disappear if you have high EMS?
-How does Anderson dies if he didn't get shot? He didn't even have a wound on him.
-How does Shepard suddenly starts running when you pick one of the very few choices?

And these are questions that i got just in my head right now. There is many more.

[BigBubbaBacon]

DraCZeQQ wrote...

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...e_of_Extinction  "The extinction events may be part of the Reapers' reproductive cycle, in which all sentient life in the galaxy is harvested and essentially melted down into techno-organic Reaper shells based on the individual species' physical form, as seen with the Human-Reaper in Masss Effect 2."

But it says that the Reaper looks like whatever it was made from but yet they all look the same? Like I said, this is simply my understanding, it very well may prove to be false.

Well for this same question I got answer that the species physical form shell is infact INNER SHELL, protected by C'thullu outer shell ... ie. Human reaper would have been sitting somewhere inside (most likely some kind of command room)

Right, that's what I'm saying. If the Reaper physically looks like whatever it was made from, and yet all of the Reapers we see look the same, they are obviously put into some type of "shell" or "ship".