248 réponses à ce sujet

[Grunkera]

AurinShepard wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

AurinShepard wrote...

Sinquanto1123 wrote...
also, if the catalyst is the citadel, why would he have allowed the Protheans to put a mini Mass Relay on the station? He had to know what it was. Why not just have the Keepers sabotage it? And even if he found it a bit cute that these primitives did so, why then when they came to change the "Keeper signal" would he have allowed that. He can still communicate to the Reapers, otherwise how could he allow Shepard to gain control of them? So, why would the Keepers even be needed to send the signal?

Also, if all advanced tech is gone, the Quarians are dead even if they can land safely as their suits no longer function to keep them safe from pathogens, and the Volus all just popped like balloons.

Since this hasn't been answered yet... The Relay on the Citadel has always been there. The Protheans didn't put it there. The Protheans built the Conduit on Ilos as a one-way access to the Relay already existing on the Citadel.

Protheans somehow prevented Reapers from telling Keepers to open up the Citadel Relay in their cycle which is why Saren (and Sovereign) needed to get to the Conduit on Ilos to get to the Citadel instead of the way the Reapers normally begin their invasion.

As a massive BUT.

Since catalyst controls citadel, why did anyone have to go there. Saren and sovereign are rendered pointless by god child.

Does the Catalyst ever say he controls the Citadel? I cannot remember.

Nah he didnt say that, he just controlls the reapers but he don´t want to say them to get away.
Understandable Reapers played Cards for 50k years, so they would be really pissed if they had to go after such a short time of "having fun".
So catalys says no i dont want the anger of the reapers, you can deal with it by controlling them or destroying them or synthesize all live to reaperlike stuff what makes the Reapers really pissed they will say: Hey Child-Remote that´s it? We´re useless now?

Funny thing though with the synthese ending plants are also organic so apples become light bulbs now? And how if theres nowhere tech?

AHHHH i know space magic

[Mandemon]

Dimensio wrote...

Mandemon wrote...

About wiping out synthetic life...

What IS synthetic life? Where do you draw the line? It can think for itself? And how do you wipe it out? Kill it's processes? Why not then just restart the program? Or does it fry out the systems? Why did Normandy keep functioning?

"Synthetic life" is a misnomer.  The construction, by human operation, of a bacteria from isolated organic compounds would produce "synthetic life".

A more accurate descriptor for the beings claimed to be "synthetics" in the Mass Effect universe is "computer intelligence".

So does it wipe out the VI too then? Also, The Walking Plot Hole calims that Shepard is part synthethic...

[Dimensio]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Dimensio wrote...

I can accept that the Reapers believe that war between synthetics and organics is inevitable and that lasting peace between them is impossible even if that belief is, in-universe, untrue.  I can accept also, that the Catalyst holds such a belief even if that belief is, in-universe, untrue.  Both positions would at least establish a reasonable motive for the antagonists.  I could even accept that the Reapers themselves do not fully understand their motives, and are trusting the motives of the Catalyst.

However, the inability to extensively question the Catalyst can never allow discussion of such themes.  A Shepard who brokered peace between the Quarians and the Geth can never challenge the Catalyst's claims.  Such a challenge would enable the Catalyst to offer defense, or imply fallibility.  Unfortunately, the opportunity for such a challenge never occurs, and instead Shepard must -- possibly irrationally -- accept without question the claims of the Catalyst.

I agree.  I also find it humorous (though not in a good way) that the starchild, whom Shepard had never met before and has no reason to believe or trust, tells Shepard to take a running leap into a glowing beam of light... and Shepard DOES IT.

That's a Conrad Verner move.  

Did I help?

[blooregard]

not sure if somebody mentioned it yet but to be fair the mass relays are controlled through the citadel...you know the thing that controls the synthetics that need to control the citadel so the citadel can bring in the synthetics whose plans are to kill all organic life before organics make synthetics that destroy organics I see no logic flaws in this

[dreman9999]

MadMatt910 wrote...

Thought id make a list of plot holes and inconsistencies for those questioning whether they exist. If you can answer all these with solid evidence from the games/wiki or novels then we will accept the current endings are fitting.


In ME1, why does sovereign tell us we can't comprehend his motivations, then they are explained simply in ME3?

In ME1, saren and sovereign lead some of the geth out of the veil to go to war with the rest of the galaxy, if not then there wouldn't have been a war, so reapers woudln't need to harvest advanced civilisations?

In ME2, what was the point of the human reaper or the collectors?
In ME2, why did the relay exploding destory the system in arrival, but people are saying they didn't in ME3?

Why does James complain about hearing a humming noise aboard the normandy (a la indoctrination)

How is reapers killing organics any better than synthetics built by organics killing the organics?
Why didn't the reapers tell organics not to build synthetics rather than coming back every 50K years to kill advanced civilisations?
Why doesnt shepard question the god child or mention peace with geth or edi?
How does the DNA of shepard allow for synthesis of synthetic and organic DNA?
Why would synthetics possibly have DNA, given its a very poor method to store information that is corrupted onevery replication?
Why does sheapard seem to wake up on earth (due to concrete)/why is the citadel made of concrete?
Why does the catalyst look like the child?
Where was the normandy going?
How come the normandy dropping out of FTL travel doesnt kill the crew, despite ME1 saying it would?
How do the crew survive the crash?
Why are my squadmates from earth on the normandy?
Where is the planet they crash landed on?
How can shepard breath in space when talking to the catalyst?
How can shepard run to the destroy or synthesis ending, given his previous physical state?

Does the destroy ending wipe out all the ships in sol (all advanced technology destroyed)?
What happened to the dark energy idea that has been shadowed through 3 games?
If dark energy isnt resolved then wont it destory every sun (2 already in me2 ageing prematurely), and so wont saving the universe be irrelevant?
Why is conrad verners dark energy dissertation considered a war asset if dark energy is irrelavnt?

Zing Freelandcer: Why does TIM look so mutilated when all he did is perform surgery without anaesthetics?
lolalie: How does joker successfully crash land the normandy given that in the destory ending edi would be dead, so hed have to land manually (especially seeing how he clearly couldn't do it on his own in ME2)?

"How is reapers killing organics any better than synthetics built by organics killing the organics?

...
To understand you have to think like a machine. It an ideal based on being alive and living. Think of it this way, to a person someone who is brain dead is dead because their mind and everything about them is gone, even if the body is still alive. To a machine that person is still living, they just have to replace the broken part that not letting that person function, even if doing that mean that person is a new person mentally. To the reaper, they are not killing off organic like, they are just making them more like machines, they are just killing of eaching beings indivisuality because they think it's a flaw.

In ME1, why does sovereign tell us we can't comprehend his motivations, then they are explained simply in ME3? 
.....
Clearly you still don't understand.  


Why didn't the reapers tell organics not to build synthetics rather than coming back every 50K years to kill advanced civilisations?
...
It's not just that. It alsois about controling chaos. They also havest us to make way for other races to advance as well. They see us as over grown weeds.

"Why doesnt shepard question the god child or mention peace with geth or edi?
How does the DNA of shepard allow for synthesis of synthetic and organic DNA?
Why would synthetics possibly have DNA, given its a very poor method to store information that is corrupted onevery replication?
Why does sheapard seem to wake up on earth (due to concrete)/why is the citadel made of concrete?
Why does the catalyst look like the child?
Where was the normandy going?
How come the normandy dropping out of FTL travel doesnt kill the crew, despite ME1 saying it would?
How do the crew survive the crash?
Why are my squadmates from earth on the normandy?
Where is the planet they crash landed on?
How can shepard breath in space when talking to the catalyst?"
How can shepard run to the destroy or synthesis ending, given his previous physical state? "
In ME2, why did the relay exploding destory the system in arrival, but people are saying they didn't in ME3? 
In ME1, vigil says the reapers control the mass relays when they control the citadel and could turn them off, why didn't they? 
In ME1, what was the point of sovereign or the keepers givign the god child controls the citadel? 
....
That's a indorctrination dream.

In ME1, saren and sovereign lead some of the geth out of the veil to go to war with the rest of the galaxy, if not then there wouldn't have been a war, so reapers woudln't need to harvest advanced civilisations?  
...
That's irrelivent. It's clear in ME2 that many people, including human,were going to try to control the geth. It would cause a war.

In ME2, what was the point of the human reaper or the collectors?
.....
How do you think TIM figured out how to control a reaper? Also, to stop the first stage of attack.

[Avissel]

Deventh wrote...

I think you forgot some:
-How does Anderson gets to the control panel first when he said he was following you?
-Why do you have unlimited bullets in the citadel?
-Where did Illusive man came from? He wasn't anywhere in the room.
-Why does some of the bodies look like Ashley and Kaidan?
-How does the illusive man survives the control of the reapers, but Shepard doesn't?
-How does Anderson dies if he didn't get shot? He didn't even have a wound on him.
-How does Shepard suddenly starts running when you pick one of the very few choices?
And these are questions that i got just in my head right now. There is many more.

1. Covered this. He went into the beam after you, but came out of it further ahead of you.
2. To ensure you don't run out of ammo and die to the three husk and Glorious Soviet Hero Marauder Shields.
3. He appears behind you, so thats where he came from. Anderosn says the area he is in is changeing shape, so it's not a stretch to imagine a passage opened up.
4. I didn't notice this, probably using stock body armor.
5. TIM is being controlled by them, Shepard's body is broken down buy..doing....yeah I have no idea how the control thing works, but it's difference of being the controller vs the controllie
6. He does get shot. Ethier you or TIM shoot him based on the dialouge.
7. Drama.

[Diego Benitez]

leapingmonkeys wrote...

To my mind, if one is going to try to view this as a literary work of "art" and not a game, then these are the points that invalidate the "art":

1) If the god-child in Citadel is using the Reapers as his "solution" then what the heck is going on in ME1 with the Reaper trying to destroy the Citadel?

2) We are told that mass relays explode with the force of a super nova and would therefore exterminate all life in a system where they were destroyed. And yet, magically, this doesn't happen in the ending.

3) The god-child states that synthetics and organics cannot co-exist, but Shepard just brokered peace with the Geth and EDI is clearly integrating smoothly with the organics (very smoothing with one particular organic).

4) Even if one accepts the premise that there is some sort of fundemental divide between synthetics and organics, why is killing organics every 50K the only solution? Why not separate them, for example? Everything a synthetics race is created, the Reapers come in and give them a place to live far, far away from the organics. Heck, you could just tell the organics that fact and problem is pretty much solved.

1) Saren is trying to undo the sabotage the protheans did to the citadel
2) I don't think they exploded they were used by the catalyst for shepards ultimate solution which led to the distruction of the relays 
3) Yeah they also co exist in my ME galaxy but the reapers had to have endured several cycles including their own wich for some reason the logical choice was to halt the progression of advanced civilizations
4) Without knowing the the reapers past we can not comprehend why they deemed it necessary it also the solution that has worked till shepard f them up even catalyst agrees it is no longer a functioning solution

[Grunkera]

blooregard wrote...

not sure if somebody mentioned it yet but to be fair the mass relays are controlled through the citadel...you know the thing that controls the synthetics that need to control the citadel so the citadel can bring in the synthetics whose plans are to kill all organic life before organics make synthetics that destroy organics I see no logic flaws in this

It´s space-child logic we can´t comprehend or in other words:

Space magic

[Dimensio]

Mandemon wrote...

Dimensio wrote...

Mandemon wrote...

About wiping out synthetic life...

What IS synthetic life? Where do you draw the line? It can think for itself? And how do you wipe it out? Kill it's processes? Why not then just restart the program? Or does it fry out the systems? Why did Normandy keep functioning?

"Synthetic life" is a misnomer.  The construction, by human operation, of a bacteria from isolated organic compounds would produce "synthetic life".

A more accurate descriptor for the beings claimed to be "synthetics" in the Mass Effect universe is "computer intelligence".

So does it wipe out the VI too then? Also, The Walking Plot Hole calims that Shepard is part synthethic...

Unfortunately, the narrative fails to adequately explain either the operation of the Crucible or the aftermath of any choice made.

[Mark of the Dragon]

Ok im sorry some of those questions are just dumb :/ Why did Shepard run in the synthesis ending? Really!?! There are definitly some plotholes but some of those things really dont matter at all. Bioware definitly owes us some answers but they dont need to spell everything out for us. Personaly I thinl the reason the relays didnt destroy the system is because the mass energy is obviously shot out of the realy so only the system itself is destroyed.
Your mention of dark energy could be the focus of mass effect 4.
Other then the few dumb questions it is a nice list!

[Shallyah]

MadMatt910 wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

OP is really shortsighted. Most of the answers are in the games to be found and some of the questions are wrong assumptions/wrongly phrased.

Care to elaborate?

I don't have much time, since I gotta go work, but with a quick look I can answer most of these so-claimed "plotholes".

- How is reapers killing organics any better than synthetics built by organics killing the organics?

As explained, Reapers believe advanced organics would destroy the universe's life as a whole. Reapers only harvest advanced races, and leave all primitive beings and their ecosystems intact. They also claim to "ascend" the advanced lifeforms they harvest and add them to their own form, rather than simply removing them from existence.


- Why didn't the reapers tell organics not to build synthetics rather than coming back every 50K years to kill advanced civilisations?

So evolution can follow its own pace. Reapers want organics to have free will, they just feel the need to keep them in check every 50,000 years. Besides, how would they enforce such demand?


- Why doesnt shepard question the god child or mention peace with geth or edi?

Because he might not be the Shepard you know. Shepard is given choices and has to pick one.


- Why does sheapard seem to wake up on earth (due to concrete)/why is the citadel made of concrete?
- How can shepard breath in space when talking to the catalyst?

Was Shepard physically ever in that place to start with?

 
- Why does the catalyst look like the child?

If you were a Reaper, what form would you take to be listened to in a more favorable way? Or I'll reformulate in another way. If your mind was being indoctrinated, how would things look more believably favorable to an outcome that benefits the Reapers?


- Where was the normandy going?
- How come the normandy dropping out of FTL travel doesnt kill the crew, despite ME1 saying it would?
- How do the crew survive the crash?
- Why are my squadmates from earth on the normandy?
- Where is the planet they crash landed on?

Is this what happened, or what the agonizing thoughts of Shepard wished to happen?



- How can shepard run to the destroy or synthesis ending, given his previous physical state?

Again you asume that Shepard is there physically.


- Does the destroy ending wipe out all the ships in sol (all advanced technology destroyed)?

The presented option only destroys synthetic lifeforms, not all technology. Ships, televisions or coffe machines would remain operational. And anyway, it might not even be true that geth and other AI's are destroyed, being simply a ruse by the "Catalyst". Shepard is warned that choosing "Destroy", he'd die too, being part synthetic. This is obviously not what happens, considering the ending teaser you get when you choose "Destroy" ending with 5000+ EMS.


I know many of the responses are based on the indoctrination assumption, but the symptoms are there, and the pieces match. We'll see what really happened when Bioware states something official or releases the DLC.

Modifié par Shallyah, 16 mars 2012 - 03:27 .

[Aurvant]

To those debating the construct of the Reapers? We've already seen what it looks like inside of the Reaper because it Saren traveled inside Soverign. Remember how at the beginning we just kinda thought that Saren had a wicked ass ship to fly in? So, the Human Reaper would have just Ben a giant terminator.

[Elios]

DraCZeQQ wrote...

Apart from obvious "why didnt Reapers turn off the Mass Relays", we can get to "Why didnt Reapers *change password* on the Citadel?"

Plot tells us: Indoctrinated TIM learns that The Citadel is the missing part of object that would threaten Reapers existence and that this object is very real ... so Reapers seize control of the Citadel (this part makes sense, even tho I dont understand why Reapers didnt go for the Citadel first, as this would give them control over Mass Relays etc.).

Now, when Reapers seized citadel, they left it internally un-guarded, they didnt *change the password* and basically did nothing to secure it? Also they made transport beam go one room from a console that opens the citadel? unsecured console that anyone can use?

good point once they had the Citadel i thought Reaper SOP was to disable the Relay network at the point its game over for the organics

[Welsh Inferno]

I really really dont understand why they didn't follow up on the Dark Energy plotline. Saddens me.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

How did the Reapers get here

That is never explained

[Dimensio]

Avissel wrote...

Deventh wrote...

I think you forgot some:
-How does Anderson gets to the control panel first when he said he was following you?
-Why do you have unlimited bullets in the citadel?
-Where did Illusive man came from? He wasn't anywhere in the room.
-Why does some of the bodies look like Ashley and Kaidan?
-How does the illusive man survives the control of the reapers, but Shepard doesn't?
-How does Anderson dies if he didn't get shot? He didn't even have a wound on him.
-How does Shepard suddenly starts running when you pick one of the very few choices?
And these are questions that i got just in my head right now. There is many more.

1. Covered this. He went into the beam after you, but came out of it further ahead of you.
2. To ensure you don't run out of ammo and die to the three husk and Glorious Soviet Hero Marauder Shields.
3. He appears behind you, so thats where he came from. Anderosn says the area he is in is changeing shape, so it's not a stretch to imagine a passage opened up.
4. I didn't notice this, probably using stock body armor.
5. TIM is being controlled by them, Shepard's body is broken down buy..doing....yeah I have no idea how the control thing works, but it's difference of being the controller vs the controllie
6. He does get shot. Ethier you or TIM shoot him based on the dialouge.
7. Drama.

I had not inferred that The Illusive Man had actually reached the control console at the top of the Citadel.  I inferred the visual of TIM at the control console as being reference to his goal, and not a flashback to his own actions, just as the visual of Anderson destroying the Crucible was not reflective of him actually having done so.

[oyukichan]

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...
*removed quote pyramid*

Dont suppose you have a link to any sort of source?

http://masseffect.wi...e_of_Extinction  "The extinction events may be part of the Reapers' reproductive cycle, in which all sentient life in the galaxy is harvested and essentially melted down into techno-organic Reaper shells based on the individual species' physical form, as seen with the Human-Reaper in Masss Effect 2."

But it says that the Reaper looks like whatever it was made from but yet they all look the same? Like I said, the idea of them being made and then put into a "shell" or "ship" is simply my understanding based on how they look and how they are apparently made, it very well may prove to be false.

It has already been discussed. http://social.biowar...index/7223323/1

Modifié par AurinShepard, 16 mars 2012 - 03:30 .

[Dessalines]

If he was the Catalyst and he controls the Reapers, then why did they need the IM to tell them the Reavers that the Citadel was the Catalyst?.
Saren describes synthesis before he dies, and he was being controlled by the Reavers.
Why was IM trying to take over the Citadel prior to knowing that the Citadel was the catalys?

[Avissel]

Dimensio wrote...
I had not inferred that The Illusive Man had actually reached the control console at the top of the Citadel.  I inferred the visual of TIM at the control console as being reference to his goal, and not a flashback to his own actions, just as the visual of Anderson destroying the Crucible was not reflective of him actually having done so.

Is that what he meant? like the little image you get of TIM grabbing the magic exposed wireing?

oh I thought he jsut meant like in general.

[BigBubbaBacon]

PKchu wrote...

How did the Reapers get here

That is never explained

As in how they were created? Obviously the Reapers were created by organics, so my guess is that they became "more advanced" than their creators, "harvested" them, and have now come to the conclusion that they must continue to harvest organic life.

I think it's more about self preservation though. After all, if an organic species makes a synthetic life form capable enough to kill them then the Reapers would be in danger. I think the Reapers motives are less "inter galactic zoo" and more "we don't want you to make something scarier than us".

[Avissel]

The whole control ending is basically just a big case of cognitive dissonance.

Paragon Shep tells TIM we can't control the Reapers beacuse "it's too much power, We aren't ready."

Then the paragon choice is to...control the Reapers.

[Welsh Inferno]

Dessalines wrote...
Why was IM trying to take over the Citadel prior to knowing that the Citadel was the catalys?

Yeah what the hell? Add that to the list.

[MadMatt910]

Shallyah wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

OP is really shortsighted. Most of the answers are in the games to be found and some of the questions are wrong assumptions/wrongly phrased.

Care to elaborate?

I don't have much time, since I gotta go work, but with a quick look I can answer most of these so-claimed "plotholes".

- How is reapers killing organics any better than synthetics built by organics killing the organics?

As explained, Reapers believe advanced organics would destroy the universe's life as a whole. Reapers only harvest advanced races, and leave all primitive beings and their ecosystems intact. They also claim to "ascend" the advanced lifeforms they harvest and add them to their own form, rather than simply removing them from existence.


- Why didn't the reapers tell organics not to build synthetics rather than coming back every 50K years to kill advanced civilisations?

So evolution can follow its own pace. Reapers want organics to have free will, they just feel the need to keep them in check every 50,000 years. Besides, how would they enforce such demand?


- Why doesnt shepard question the god child or mention peace with geth or edi?

Because he might not be the Shepard you know. Shepard is given choices and has to pick one.


- Why does sheapard seem to wake up on earth (due to concrete)/why is the citadel made of concrete?
- How can shepard breath in space when talking to the catalyst?

Was Shepard physically ever in that place to start with?

 
- Why does the catalyst look like the child?

If you were a Reaper, what form would you take to be listened to in a more favorable way? Or I'll reformulate in another way. If your mind was being indoctrinated, how would things look more believably favorable to an outcome that benefits the Reapers?


- Where was the normandy going?
- How come the normandy dropping out of FTL travel doesnt kill the crew, despite ME1 saying it would?
- How do the crew survive the crash?
- Why are my squadmates from earth on the normandy?
- Where is the planet they crash landed on?

Is this what happened, or what the agonizing thoughts of Shepard wished to happen?



- How can shepard run to the destroy or synthesis ending, given his previous physical state?

Again you asume that Shepard is there physically.


- Does the destroy ending wipe out all the ships in sol (all advanced technology destroyed)?

The presented option only destroys synthetic lifeforms, not all technology. Ships, televisions or coffe machines would remain operational. And anyway, it might not even be true that geth and other AI's are destroyed, being simply a ruse by the "Catalyst". Shepard is warned that choosing "Destroy", he'd die too, being part synthetic. This is obviously not what happens, considering the ending teaser you get when you choose "Destroy" ending with 5000+ EMS.


I know many of the responses are based on the indoctrination assumption, but the symptoms are there, and the pieces match. We'll see what really happened when Bioware states something official or releases the DLC.

As you say most of your answers are based on shepard being indoctrinated.
For the sake of this thread not being a replica of look how great indoctrination theory is, i have to assume that what we saw is what actually happened.

Arguably, being indoctrinated, followed by an ending wherer reapers are motivated by soem variation of the dark energy plot would cover every single large plot hole.

[Mandemon]

Dimensio wrote...

Mandemon wrote...

Dimensio wrote...

Mandemon wrote...

About wiping out synthetic life...

What IS synthetic life? Where do you draw the line? It can think for itself? And how do you wipe it out? Kill it's processes? Why not then just restart the program? Or does it fry out the systems? Why did Normandy keep functioning?

"Synthetic life" is a misnomer.  The construction, by human operation, of a bacteria from isolated organic compounds would produce "synthetic life".

A more accurate descriptor for the beings claimed to be "synthetics" in the Mass Effect universe is "computer intelligence".

So does it wipe out the VI too then? Also, The Walking Plot Hole calims that Shepard is part synthethic...

Unfortunately, the narrative fails to adequately explain either the operation of the Crucible or the aftermath of any choice made.

So space magic?