248 réponses à ce sujet

[savionen]

Halo Quea wrote...

Okay this is ALL WRONG.

It's a misconception on your part to believe that the Reapers leave primitive or lesser advanced civilazations in tact.  They in fact don't, the cycles prove this.  It doesn't matter if there are primative organics now, the Reapers have already numbered their days with plans to return and harvest them.  So it really doesn't matter that they leave primatives alone right now, they are still planning to wipe them out.  So ALL organics live under the Reapers shadow of death.

No matter how long it takes, EVERY organic will die and be harvested.

This is what makes these endings such an insult.  Reapers don't harvest organics with any contingencies that a IF an advanced civilization should develop synthetics they will harvest them.  If that was the case then only the Quarians would have been attacked, and even then Geth A.I's were created by accident.

The Reapers logic (and Bioware's) is broken.  If the Reapers are so damned intelligent why wouldn't they just attack the Geth? Or remove the Geth and other synthetics from the galaxy?  Instead the Reapers actually gave the Geth even MORE intelligence.  They improved the Geth, made them smarter, more individualistic. 

Meanwhile back at the ranch.  Organics are being turned into monstrous creations, mindless abominations.  Life stolen, individuality denied.  

This is great point. Why are humans the focal point of being harvested if the Quarians are responsible for the Geth? (Not to mention the Geth are peaceful, instigated by the Reapers, etc.)

[MadMatt910]

savionen wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...

Okay this is ALL WRONG.

It's a misconception on your part to believe that the Reapers leave primitive or lesser advanced civilazations in tact.  They in fact don't, the cycles prove this.  It doesn't matter if there are primative organics now, the Reapers have already numbered their days with plans to return and harvest them.  So it really doesn't matter that they leave primatives alone right now, they are still planning to wipe them out.  So ALL organics live under the Reapers shadow of death.

No matter how long it takes, EVERY organic will die and be harvested.

This is what makes these endings such an insult.  Reapers don't harvest organics with any contingencies that a IF an advanced civilization should develop synthetics they will harvest them.  If that was the case then only the Quarians would have been attacked, and even then Geth A.I's were created by accident.

The Reapers logic (and Bioware's) is broken.  If the Reapers are so damned intelligent why wouldn't they just attack the Geth? Or remove the Geth and other synthetics from the galaxy?  Instead the Reapers actually gave the Geth even MORE intelligence.  They improved the Geth, made them smarter, more individualistic. 

Meanwhile back at the ranch.  Organics are being turned into monstrous creations, mindless abominations.  Life stolen, individuality denied.  

This is great point. Why are humans the focal point of being harvested if the Quarians are responsible for the Geth? (Not to mention the Geth are peaceful, instigated by the Reapers, etc.)

Arguable because of Shepards actions in ME1

[Mandemon]

MadMatt910 wrote...

Actually theres a bit of info in me1 where you can see a vision as a caveman seeing the reapers. You need the trinket from shiala and theres a planet where you retrieve the data core. Its on there. They do leave more primitive life.

No. Caveman sees Prothean, not a Reaper.

Modifié par Mandemon, 16 mars 2012 - 05:28 .

[AGogley]

The suggestion by the catalyst is that eventually synthetic life will eradicate all organic life so the reapers come every 50K years to harvest advanced civilizations to prevent them from making AI. Big problem for me is that nobody seems to clean up the AI already created. It also doesn't explain the rush to earth (because Shepard resisted). It doesn't explain how civilizations kept coming up with more plans to build a "crucible" that didn't do anything anyways.

[MadMatt910]

bump to prevent premature death, not unlike ME3s premature end...

[Diego Benitez]

Halo Quea wrote...


Okay this is ALL WRONG.

It's a misconception on your part to believe that the Reapers leave primitive or lesser advanced civilazations in tact.  They in fact don't, the cycles prove this.  It doesn't matter if there are primative organics now, the Reapers have already numbered their days with plans to return and harvest them.  So it really doesn't matter that they leave primatives alone right now, they are still planning to wipe them out.  So ALL organics live under the Reapers shadow of death.

No matter how long it takes, EVERY organic will die and be harvested.

This is what makes these endings such an insult.  Reapers don't harvest organics with any contingencies that a IF an advanced civilization should develop synthetics they will harvest them.  If that was the case then only the Quarians would have been attacked, and even then Geth A.I's were created by accident.

The Reapers logic (and Bioware's) is broken.  If the Reapers are so damned intelligent why wouldn't they just attack the Geth? Or remove the Geth and other synthetics from the galaxy?  Instead the Reapers actually gave the Geth even MORE intelligence.  They improved the Geth, made them smarter, more individualistic. 

Meanwhile back at the ranch.  Organics are being turned into monstrous creations, mindless abominations.  Life stolen, individuality denied.  

There is another misconception there the reapers are not in to kill advance civilization but pertect it from itself. 

[Swisspease]

Why does the inside of the Citadel remind me of the engine compartment on the Shadow Broker's ship?

[Sinquanto1123]

Diego Benitez wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...


Okay this is ALL WRONG.

It's a misconception on your part to believe that the Reapers leave primitive or lesser advanced civilazations in tact.  They in fact don't, the cycles prove this.  It doesn't matter if there are primative organics now, the Reapers have already numbered their days with plans to return and harvest them.  So it really doesn't matter that they leave primatives alone right now, they are still planning to wipe them out.  So ALL organics live under the Reapers shadow of death.

No matter how long it takes, EVERY organic will die and be harvested.

This is what makes these endings such an insult.  Reapers don't harvest organics with any contingencies that a IF an advanced civilization should develop synthetics they will harvest them.  If that was the case then only the Quarians would have been attacked, and even then Geth A.I's were created by accident.

The Reapers logic (and Bioware's) is broken.  If the Reapers are so damned intelligent why wouldn't they just attack the Geth? Or remove the Geth and other synthetics from the galaxy?  Instead the Reapers actually gave the Geth even MORE intelligence.  They improved the Geth, made them smarter, more individualistic. 

Meanwhile back at the ranch.  Organics are being turned into monstrous creations, mindless abominations.  Life stolen, individuality denied.  

There is another misconception there the reapers are not in to kill advance civilization but pertect it from itself. 

and so, in order to "protect" they must totally and utterly destroy and only keep their molecular goo?  How does that even make sense?

[killerway]

Not sure if anyones mentioned this but if the colourful waves of space magic can take out the normandy, does that mean the ENTIRE unified fleet at earth is wiped out too? Just saying... did shepard seriously just screw everyone...

[Tovanus]

The justification for the Reapers was ridiculous. The idea that the intervention is even necessary seems off. Geth didn't suddenly advance so much that the organic races couldn't fight them (the Quarians by themselves developed a means to wreck the Geth and take back their planet, until the Reapers intervened).

Presumably the first proto-Reaper civilization had to fight AI. Presumably that civilization was capable of beating their own AI, because they exist now and became Reapers. Was merging into a Reaper mind what saved them? Doesn't seem likely. An organic civilization advanced enough to build a Reaper mechanical shell and Mass Relays probably beat their synthetic opponents through conventional war. Putting their race into those shells in those numbers would seem like putting your eggs in one basket if the original synthetics the proto-Reapers fought had similar levels of war-technology. And in any case, if they beat their synthetic opponents, when has the need for a cycle been established at all?

The Dark Energy theory abandoned by Bioware sounds like it too would not have been good - but only in the final form as seen across the forums, which is that genetic diversity was supposed to counter dark energy? That makes absolutely no sense. Dark Energy is a REAL phenomena, not something the game made up in fantasy land: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Dark_energy

As the starting point for their motivations, though, it's brilliant, and I can't believe they dropped the idea when it was pretty strongly hinted at in the second game. I just don't think genetic diversity would "counter" it in any sensical story. But if their motivation had been, say, that it cannot be countered in OUR galaxy, and the Reapers simply wish to preserve organic life because it's so rare from the inevitable destruction of our galaxy (think of the Reapers as a Noah's Ark and the Dark Energy as the flood), that would have been a motivation worthy of the Reapers.

Yeah, Sovereign said their motivation was unknowable, but the mystery called out for an explanation, and I think you could justify it as unknowable still using the dark energy idea based on the notion that mortals can only grasp the philosophical implications of these things at a very abstract level that we will never have to actually deal with because our life-spans are not eternal. This "synthetics will destroy organics" justification seems so terrible by comparison.

Modifié par Tovanus, 16 mars 2012 - 06:03 .

[BigBubbaBacon]

Tovanus wrote...

The justification for the Reapers was ridiculous. The idea that the intervention is even necessary seems off. Geth didn't suddenly advance so much that the organic races couldn't fight them (the Quarians by themselves developed a means to wreck the Geth and take back their planet, until the Reapers intervened).

Presumably the first proto-Reaper civilization had to fight AI. Presumably that civilization was capable of beating their own AI, because they exist now and became Reapers. Was merging into a Reaper mind what saved them? Doesn't seem likely. An organic civilization advanced enough to build a Reaper mechanical shell and Mass Relays probably beat their AI through conventional war with those assets. Putting their race into those shells in those numbers would seem like putting your eggs in one basket if the original AI the proto-Reapers fought had similar levels of war-technology.

The Dark Energy theory abandoned by Bioware sounds like it too would not have been good - but only in the final form as seen across the forums, which is that genetic diversity was supposed to counter dark energy? That makes absolutely no sense. Dark Energy is a REAL phenomena, not something the game made up in fantasy land: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Dark_energy

As the starting point for their motivations, though, it's brilliant, and I can't believe they dropped the idea when it was pretty strongly hinted at in the second game. I just don't think genetic diversity would "counter" it in any sensical story. But if their motivation had been, say, that it cannot be countered in OUR galaxy, and the Reapers simply wish to preserve organic life because it's so rare from the inevitable destruction of our galaxy (think of the Reapers as a Noah's Ark and the Dark Energy as the flood), that would have been a motivation worthy of the Reapers.

Yeah, Sovereign said their motivation was unknowable, but they mystery called out for an explanation, and I think you could justify it as unknowable still using the dark energy idea based on the notion that mortals can only grasp the philosophical implications of these things at a very abstract level that we will never have to actually deal with because our life-spans are not eternal. This "synthetics will destroy organics" justification seems so terrible by comparison.

Just one thing, I don't think the Reapers are the remains of the "original" organic life that had to fight AI, but I think it most likely that the Reapers ARE that AI. Which raises even more questions.

[Sinquanto1123]

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

Just one thing, I don't think the Reapers are the remains of the "original" organic life that had to fight AI, but I think it most likely that the Reapers ARE that AI. Which raises even more questions.

Also, if this is even the case, that doesn't explain why saving a molecular goo would translate into "preserving the species"... I mean we have certain things such as radiation poisoning that can liquify people, this by no means preserves them...

[Tovanus]

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

Tovanus wrote...

The justification for the Reapers was ridiculous. The idea that the intervention is even necessary seems off. Geth didn't suddenly advance so much that the organic races couldn't fight them (the Quarians by themselves developed a means to wreck the Geth and take back their planet, until the Reapers intervened).

Presumably the first proto-Reaper civilization had to fight AI. Presumably that civilization was capable of beating their own AI, because they exist now and became Reapers. Was merging into a Reaper mind what saved them? Doesn't seem likely. An organic civilization advanced enough to build a Reaper mechanical shell and Mass Relays probably beat their AI through conventional war with those assets. Putting their race into those shells in those numbers would seem like putting your eggs in one basket if the original AI the proto-Reapers fought had similar levels of war-technology.

The Dark Energy theory abandoned by Bioware sounds like it too would not have been good - but only in the final form as seen across the forums, which is that genetic diversity was supposed to counter dark energy? That makes absolutely no sense. Dark Energy is a REAL phenomena, not something the game made up in fantasy land: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Dark_energy

As the starting point for their motivations, though, it's brilliant, and I can't believe they dropped the idea when it was pretty strongly hinted at in the second game. I just don't think genetic diversity would "counter" it in any sensical story. But if their motivation had been, say, that it cannot be countered in OUR galaxy, and the Reapers simply wish to preserve organic life because it's so rare from the inevitable destruction of our galaxy (think of the Reapers as a Noah's Ark and the Dark Energy as the flood), that would have been a motivation worthy of the Reapers.

Yeah, Sovereign said their motivation was unknowable, but they mystery called out for an explanation, and I think you could justify it as unknowable still using the dark energy idea based on the notion that mortals can only grasp the philosophical implications of these things at a very abstract level that we will never have to actually deal with because our life-spans are not eternal. This "synthetics will destroy organics" justification seems so terrible by comparison.

Just one thing, I don't think the Reapers are the remains of the "original" organic life that had to fight AI, but I think it most likely that the Reapers ARE that AI. Which raises even more questions.

I had thought that was the case after ME1. I mean, it wasn't until ME 2 introduced the "human" Reaper that people thought of the Reapers as anything other than an AI millions of years old.

But I'm not sure Bioware stuck with that. Seems like they talk about organic civilizations having ascended to higher form of being in the Reapers, and the Human Reaper required organic material to work on its brain. They also made reference in the third game to the Leviathan of Dis being a Reaper (which was an organic corpose millions of years old that people pegged as a living starship, presumably a Reaper without its shell).

I feel like the Reapers being the original AI could lead to a good explanation though, even some minor redemption for the reasons they gave. If they made it clear that they weren't organic in a mechanical shell, but instead started out as AI that simply stored organic material, then that could lead to an explanation along the lines that:

The Reapers aren't even from our galaxy. They came from another galaxy where all organic life WAS wiped out. They wiped it out. They know that this was inevitable along their development path as an AI, even though they regret it now. They know other AI will follow their path in THIS galaxy. I feel like, barring a total hallucination "fix" to the ending, I could accept that if they added it into investigative options with the god-kid. No idea why they didn't give us an investigative conversation with that being to find out just what the hell is going on and what their reasons are.
 
In TV shows you sometimes get irritated with characters for not asking obvious questions, but you're not conditioned to feel like YOU can ask the question that's obvious and on everyone's mind. One of the things ME always strived to do was make sure you didn't have that feeling with Shepherd. "Oh, you're curious about X? We knew you would be. Any logical person would be. We've given you an option to have Shepherd ASK About X." Really felt the lack of that in the end.

[Diego Benitez]

Sinquanto1123 wrote...


and so, in order to "protect" they must totally and utterly destroy and only keep their molecular goo?  How does that even make sense?

I believe he said save but yeah that came out of the mouth of the orbital strike killed reaper.

 It makes sense to me because you if look at present day earth we incompass so much that a nuclear war has to ability to leave earth complety incapable of sustaining any life. It could be that the Reapers (prothean given name) are hell bent on killing anything that can create synthetics because the civilization that they came from that was the major concern 

Also by what the catalyst said it seems that the reapers are like a noah's ark only with a geth collective kind of mentality 

Modifié par Diego Benitez, 16 mars 2012 - 06:20 .

[BigBubbaBacon]

Sinquanto1123 wrote...

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

Just one thing, I don't think the Reapers are the remains of the "original" organic life that had to fight AI, but I think it most likely that the Reapers ARE that AI. Which raises even more questions.

Also, if this is even the case, that doesn't explain why saving a molecular goo would translate into "preserving the species"... I mean we have certain things such as radiation poisoning that can liquify people, this by no means preserves them...

Well, when they "preserve" a species into Reaper form that Reaper takes on the physical characteristics of the species it was made from, ala the Human-Reaper.


EDIT: 

Tovanus wrote...

I had thought that was the case after ME1. I mean, it wasn't until ME 2 introduced the "human" Reaper that people thought of the Reapers as anything other than an AI millions of years old. 

But I'm not sure Bioware stuck with that. Seems like they talk about organic civilizations having ascended to higher form of being in the Reapers, and the Human Reaper required organic material to work on its brain. They also made reference in the third game to the Leviathan of Dis being a Reaper (which was an organic corpose millions of years old that people pegged as a living starship, presumably a Reaper without its shell).

I feel like the Reapers being the original AI could lead to a good explanation though, even some minor redemption for the reasons they gave. If they made it clear that they weren't organic in a mechanical shell, but instead started out as AI that simply stored organic material, then that could lead to an explanation along the lines that:

The Reapers aren't even from our galaxy. They came from another galaxy where all organic life WAS wiped out. They wiped it out. They know that this was inevitable along their development path as an AI, even though they regret it now. They know other AI will follow their path in THIS galaxy. I feel like, barring a total hallucination "fix" to the ending, I could accept that if they added it into investigative options with the god-kid. No idea why they didn't give us an investigative conversation with that being to find out just what the hell is going on and what their reasons are.
 
In TV shows you sometimes get irritated with characters for not asking obvious questions, but you're not conditioned to feel like YOU can ask the question that's obvious and on everyone's mind. One of the things ME always strived to do was make sure you didn't have that feeling with Shepherd. "Oh, you're curious about X? We knew you would be. Any logical person would be. We've given you an option to have Shepherd ASK About X." Really felt the lack of that in the end.

 

Interesting idea, very interesting. I like it.

Modifié par BigBubbaBacon, 16 mars 2012 - 06:20 .

[Sinquanto1123]

Diego Benitez wrote...

Sinquanto1123 wrote...


and so, in order to "protect" they must totally and utterly destroy and only keep their molecular goo?  How does that even make sense?

I belive he said save but yeah that came out of the mouth of the orbital strike killed reaper.

 It makes sense to me because you if look at present day earth we incompass so much that a nuclear war has to ability to leave earth complety incapable of sustaining any life. It could be that the Reapers (prothean given name) are hell bent on killing anything that can create synthetics because the civilization that they came from that was the major concern 

Also by what the catalyst said it seems that the reapers are like a noah's ark only with a geth collective kind of mentality 

Again, what is the point of having a molecular goo?  "Woot, I have a bunch of DNA in me (though debateable that this dna would last 50,000 years, let alone over 37 Million years), I'm helping to preserve this race"

"uh... but that race doesn't even exist any more"

"sure, but at least there is a record that they did at some point"

"and this record is needed, why?"

"ummm.... Yay, I have DNA in me!!!"

[Sinquanto1123]

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

Well, when they "preserve" a species into Reaper form that Reaper takes on the physical characteristics of the species it was made from, ala the Human-Reaper.

and we have "human" looking androids... having a shape does not make you the item you resemble...

[BigBubbaBacon]

Sinquanto1123 wrote...

BigBubbaBacon wrote...

Well, when they "preserve" a species into Reaper form that Reaper takes on the physical characteristics of the species it was made from, ala the Human-Reaper.

and we have "human" looking androids... having a shape does not make you the item you resemble...

It's obvious that the Reapers......think differently than we do. To us it seems odd, to them it probably makes perfect sense. Doesn't make it right, but apparently that's how they view themselves.

EDIT: Also, I find it comical that I'm talking about the Reapers as if they were real. *facepalm*

Modifié par BigBubbaBacon, 16 mars 2012 - 06:26 .

[anonymous1193]

You forgot two:
How did the reapers arrive to the milky-way this quickly without the use of mass relays?
How did the reapers find the home-worlds of all sapient life without accessing any records on the citadel?

[Wowlock]

SKiLLYWiLLY2 wrote...

Kanub wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

Kanub wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

1) In ME2, what was the point of the human reaper or the collectors?

2) How is reapers killing organics any better than synthetics built by organics killing the organics?

Right, I don't like the ending, but those two are explained.

1) Ghost Boy tells you that the Reapers 'record' each species they wipe out as a means of honouring them (in a sick kinda way.) The human reaper wasn't for any particular war reason, it was just a record of humanity for their scary archives.

2) Because the reapers don't wipe out all organice life, just the advanced stuff. Their argument is that eventually these advanced species would make synthetics that WOULD wipe out all organic life, completely. The reapers allow unevolved and primitve life to continue, untill such a point where it has the technology to be a threat to itself. 

Thus the claim that they are in fact preserving life in the galaxy.

1) ok fair enough, i missed that.
2) This still begs the question why didnt the reapers just tell the advanced civilisations not to do it?

Can't answer that. Or why don't the Reapers just come in and kill the synthetics when they get too rowdy? So yeah, it answers your first question, but it simply begs more answers with that question.

Reapers can't just "tell" organics not to do something. Organics don't do what they're told. Also the catalyst implies that synthetics would grow too powerful to be stopped by the reapers. Still, I agree that it wouldn't be impossible to just show up before that happens but I guess it's just too risky for the reapers to consider it.

Soo what was the point of Cataclysis telling Shepard what to do in the end then ? See , it is a two way street.

No matter how you look at it, it is Reapes' self rightous, almost zealotry logic wrapped in arrogance and chaos theories. And we know how those benefit the world .....

[Diego Benitez]

Sinquanto1123 wrote...

Again, what is the point of having a molecular goo?  "Woot, I have a bunch of DNA in me (though debateable that this dna would last 50,000 years, let alone over 37 Million years), I'm helping to preserve this race"

"uh... but that race doesn't even exist any more"

"sure, but at least there is a record that they did at some point"

"and this record is needed, why?"

"ummm.... Yay, I have DNA in me!!!"

It could be that this massive amount of goo could be them taken to not only keep recored but too have them live as one like the geth did.

I rewrote this part several times- simply put if the prothean can extract past actions than what is to say that the Reaper can not extract the individual

[Sinquanto1123]

Diego Benitez wrote...

Sinquanto1123 wrote...

Again, what is the point of having a molecular goo?  "Woot, I have a bunch of DNA in me (though debateable that this dna would last 50,000 years, let alone over 37 Million years), I'm helping to preserve this race"

"uh... but that race doesn't even exist any more"

"sure, but at least there is a record that they did at some point"

"and this record is needed, why?"

"ummm.... Yay, I have DNA in me!!!"

It could be that this massive amount of goo could be them taken to not only keep recored but too have them live as one like the geth did.

I rewrote this part several times- simply put if the prothean can extract past actions than what is to say that the Reaper can not extract the individual

Possibly, but as to your first point, at no point do I remember any mention that the geth have any organic parts, so what do you mean by "live as one"?

[Paulinius]

The Reapers reap every 50,000 years.

What if an organic race evolves quicker than expected and/or finds an intact data cache that allows them to progress and develop synthetics after 25,000 years?

It took Sovereign 50,000 years just to notice the Citadel wasn't working.

[Diego Benitez]

Sinquanto1123 wrote...


Possibly, but as to your first point, at no point do I remember any mention that the geth have any organic parts, so what do you mean by "live as one"?

Im really enjoying this converstaion as well as the ones I have with my friends and its because of how mass effect built thank you bioware 

live as one- 
In ME2 Legion spoke with a we are one we are geth, he said that they shared information across all platforms and that the only diffrence between the individuals was perspective

On the "dead" reaper before salvage crew was turned into husks there minds were becoming the same as the geth

In ME3 the reaper code gave individuality to the geth (at least that is what legion told me it would do) so it makes sense to me that the reaper can make a we are one we are individual scenario

Modifié par Diego Benitez, 16 mars 2012 - 07:10 .

[Zelto]

I thought about the dreadnought. They cant land on plants, which I initally assumed ment they can enter the upper atmosphere (thought I read that somewhere) but even if they can it is clearly stated in the codex that their weapons are ineffective in atmosphere, 20% less per 1 bar I beleave, so why waist power and not just fight from space, its not like there is a lack of available targets for them to choose from.

Also as per space magic, remember "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic",
So really is all good!

Modifié par Zelto, 16 mars 2012 - 07:12 .