157 réponses à ce sujet

[nvrtrustabunny]

Very vocal trolls? I have not been reading this board long but the people who want the ending changed or added to seem to be the majority. The On the endings thread is 90% people that want a better ending. Your in the minority...deal with it.

[shamE12]

Its amusing that all 5 people that actually like the endings keep making threads.

[Sidra2099]

Look, it's not like we're walking into a museum for free and demanding that artist X changes his art because we don't like it. He did that art either for himself of for another client, and thus, we have no grounds to demand that he change it.

But say you take cooking as an art. The chef can be as creative as he pleases in his food and in his menu decisions. Nobody can stop him from CREATING new dishes or recipes or menus. But when a customer (us) pays good money to eat the food, then our opinions matter.

Whether we like it or not determines if we come back, if we recommend the place to friends, and thus whether he gets money to keep his 'art' running. In choosing to turn his 'art' into a PRODUCT (which does not necessarily diminish its artistic quality, by the way), he is forced to deal with economic realities of running a business - that customers aren't paying you do do 'art' for you, they're paying you to do art for them.

Certainly, there are customers you can't ever please. Customers who constantly send meals back for spurious reasons. But if a large percentage of your customers are complaining that your food is bad , then you have an issue. You can defend your food on the grounds that the customers tastes aren't refined enough for the food, or that they 'don't get it', but that argument has always come across as insulting, and I am willing to be that it has never once worked to convince an angry customer to give anyone a second chance.

It's even worse when customers can objectively prove that the food is bad. If critics or savvy customers can comprehensively list objective standards compared to which the food is poor, then the whole argument of 'we're maligned only by the subjective opinions of whiners' holds much less water. This has been done in several threads that fairly comprehensively demonstrate that the literary techniques used by the writers are sub-par, or cliche.

In the end, it really boils down to 'Who has a stake in my art, and in the future of my art'. If you are doing art for your own personal satisfaction or fulfilment, then nobody has any rights to question you. But when you CHARGE people to enjoy your art, you had better take their opinion seriously.
It's just good business. They CHOSE to make a living off their 'art', and if they want to be able to afford to KEEP doing that, they have to offer us a lot more than 'integrity'.

It's economic sense. Making 'art' is expensive. So you sell it to customers. If they don't like it, you can tell them to go to hell. So you get less money. Which might impact your ability to do more/better art. If it keeps up, then you go broke, and do NO art. If you want to have creative standards in your work, that is a laudable goal. But subjective creative standards CANNOT come at the expense of the customer.

Otherwise, what is to stop companies from making shoddy products, and writers and artists from making insipid, uninspired work and hiding behind 'creative licence'? Experimental, controversial work is fine, but it is silly to expect to introduce your work to the free market, attempt to reap the economic benefits of it, and then try to change the rules with 'artistic integrity' as an excuse for a shoddy product.

[t_i_e_]

Have integrity. Full fill your advertising promises.

[AzaZeLgaming]

yup ... don't change the ending and go into liquidation plz. There are some many devs out there, who can do it better and who can actually fulfill their promises. The story of BW is probably over.

Modifié par AzaZeLgaming, 16 mars 2012 - 02:14 .

[Phattee Buttz]

pkmn wrote...

Bioware is faced with a similar dilemma now. Some very vocal fans are demanding a DLC that adds another alternative happy ending.

Why are so many people missing the point? IT'S NOT ABOUT A "HAPPY ENDING"!!!! It's about fixing plotholes and giving the player choices. We were promised something other than ABC. What we got was ABC.

The more we find out about the ending the more it seems like a rush job fueled by cynicism: background from deviant art, stock photo for Tali's face, "Lots of speculation from everyone"... this patched-together mess cannot by any standard be called a proper ending.

[sadako]

Bioware, please don't change the ending because it would entail you to spend more money. Please use the said money to pay off more people to support your product as a form of damage control.

Heck, I'll start extolling the virtue of your ending (or endings) if you start paying me money.
I don't need much, 2 bucks per post would likely be enough :lol:.

[Phaedros]

SecElit3 wrote...

Integrity? You mean like Bioware providing the things that they said they would provide in the first place? Sounds like someone should find a dictionary.

Integrity walked out the door with Brent Knowles.

It's been all down hill since then.

Simple as 1,2,3 or A,B,C or even Red,Blue,Green.

[garf]

Complistic wrote...

I was against the ending until I actually played it. If you go with the indoctination theory it's not bad. Could have gone with some more closure but I have no issue filling in the gaps the way I want to.

That's wHat I will do if bioware doesn't fix this. but at that point I'll also imagine my own n7 strikes and assaults on say omega or anything else that I would buy on DLC. imagination is great. and less expensive. hmmm While I'm at i should Imagine I never bought the first damn game.

[majinbuu1307]

pkmn wrote...

When Dickens gave into readers and changed the ending to Great Expectations, it was one of the great failings in the art of literature. That the masses, rather than the artist, would dictate  the conclusion of a brilliant work of literature was about as anti-art as you can get.

Bioware is faced with a similar dilemma now. Some very vocal fans are demanding a DLC that adds another alternative happy ending.

Bioware, please realize that this is a crossroads for video games as an art form. If you give into fans, you will be showing that the ending of videogames is decided by the masses rather than by the artist - you will be tarnishing a great work of art; you'll be forever disgracing the idea that video games can be seen as an art form.

While I was not entirely pleased with the 10 second cutscene at the end of the game, I correctly realize that the entirety of Mass Effect 3 is the "ending". The ending starts as soon as you start a new game. The previous two acts were seen in Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. People are putting too much stock in a 10 second cutscene and ignoring the rest of the ending. I also realize that it is Bioware's story to end - not mine, and that of not the very vocal trolls and haters on this forum.

Hell no, give us extra options in the end with more endings with DLC! 

[ShepnTali]

What's with this 'conventional happy ending' BS? For starters, if it's conventional, then it means it generally works. That's where the money is laid. Secondly, a hero living isn't remotely close to this ridiculous notion of rainbows, unicorns and Ewok dances. I reject it. It's become like a news show talking point. This series paints a picture of doom AND hope. There's plenty of room for both, especially if our decisions are really supposed to matter.

[RUDAL]

I agree, dont change the ending. It's the end of the story. Yes you wont be able to sell much DLC after that but it is You who said it is the last part of the series. I wouldn't mind to see more Shepard's adventures but the war is over - lost or won it is over!
If you are going to listen to all those complains about endings then at least ADD but not change the endings

[the red boon]

garf wrote...

blacqout wrote...

What BioWare should do is wait until those in Asia have had a chance to play it, then come in and explain it so the simpletons that don't get it can understand.

What they shouldn't do is lower their art to the level of those that need sunshine and happiness.

Simpletons who desire sunshine and happiness. Is that the best you can do?

really, please try reading some of the reasoned complaints that are out there. Then try refuting them. treat me with respect and I will return the favour.

I honestly find these people amusing, they must be the connoisseurs of plot holes and tri-colored endings. 

[Aedan276]

pkmn wrote...

When Dickens gave into readers and changed the ending to Great Expectations, it was one of the great failings in the art of literature. That the masses, rather than the artist, would dictate  the conclusion of a brilliant work of literature was about as anti-art as you can get.

Bioware is faced with a similar dilemma now. Some very vocal fans are demanding a DLC that adds another alternative happy ending.

Bioware, please realize that this is a crossroads for video games as an art form. If you give into fans, you will be showing that the ending of videogames is decided by the masses rather than by the artist - you will be tarnishing a great work of art; you'll be forever disgracing the idea that video games can be seen as an art form.

While I was not entirely pleased with the 10 second cutscene at the end of the game, I correctly realize that the entirety of Mass Effect 3 is the "ending". The ending starts as soon as you start a new game. The previous two acts were seen in Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. People are putting too much stock in a 10 second cutscene and ignoring the rest of the ending. I also realize that it is Bioware's story to end - not mine, and that of not the very vocal trolls and haters on this forum.

Why do these threads always ignore we were promised an ending that wasn't A, B, or C? That's a mighty tolerant attitude to have after five years and hundreds of dollars. 

I feel like I gave enough to Bioware to receive the ending I was led to anticipate by both interviews and the overall structure of the trilogy. 

Modifié par Aedan276, 16 mars 2012 - 02:16 .

[Reiella]

Vergil_dgk wrote...

Disagree. It's not really a question of wanting more (though that would be nice too), but of wanting better! The star-child's sudden appearance and the scene in which he features is a textbook example of ludicrous, hamfisted storytelling at its worst. I was fine with the game until those last five minutes, I expected my Shepard to die as it was foreshadowed heavily - I felt emotional about it which is as it should be. But the star-child and his "explanations" were ridiculous and ruined what should have been a majestic, emotional moment. I also think the ending ought to provide some relevant, actual choices as this is what the whole franchise has been built around.

Was Virgil any less hamfisted?

[ edit ]
Just to clarify, you mean the Catalyst's representation at the end.  Not the child talking to Stargazer in post-credits, right?

Modifié par Reiella, 16 mars 2012 - 02:17 .

[Rosey]

Stupid not being able to post on my main account because of Origin >.<

Okay, first of all, saying that video games aren't art is probably the worst thing we as gamers can say. That statement alone is going to set back video games decades. It is art. Just as films are art, and books are art, and photography is art, and music is art, and physical and digital art is art.

Just because they're also interactive and entertaining does in no way make it less art. By saying this you are demeaning the effort and hard work and creativity that goes into them. Even poorly done video game or games that you are dissatisfied with.

Stop using that as an excuse to bash our outlet. All it will do is prove the anti-gaming community right. that it's just a toy and not another means of adult entertainment (and no I don't mean porn.)

Secondly -- The ending's aren't bad. They're just not what you expected. It doesn't matter if you expected happy endings or sad endings or something else all together. They're just not what you thought you wanted.

It's perfectly alright to be upset. It's perfectly okay to voice it. It wasn't what you thought, it wasn't what you hoped for, and perhaps even it wasn't what marketing lead you to believe. But not everyone feels that way. Bashing your face against your keyboard to tell them how wrong they are for not feeling the same way as you do is childish and irresponsible.

If you'd like to see it changed, added to, improved upon -- then by all means do. Please. Be vocal and constructive rather then hateful. Don't jump down other peoples throats for disagreeing with you. Some of us have found the ending satisfactory. Some of us enjoyed it. Some of us are perfectly okay, hell even satisfied with how it turned out.

It gives us something to discuss, something to analyze and pick over. It gives us something to put a magnifying glass to and spend weeks and months deconstructing and reconstructing. And that's not a bad thing.

For those folks up in arms about what might have happened to the rest of the galaxy, go back and read your war assets and codex entries. None of the races with you brought their civilians. They're all back on their respective worlds, colonies, and solar systems. The Quarians don't bring their liveships -- they leave them on Rannoch to rebuild. It says as much in the war assets and in the codexes. The Krogan are already repopulating -- Wrex makes note that Eve is already pregnant and back on Tuchunka rallying the women and young.

This is getting long winded. The TLDR version is that yes it is perfectly okay for you to be mad, but don't bash folks who aren't, and don't insult our favored artistic medium because of your dissatisfaction. That's not going to help.

[Mims]

I do want to note that I love how people are saying artists never change work, because they live in some lofty world where they do it for the artistry.

The art world is SO corporate. Even if it is refuge in absurdity, you better believe a gallery and patrons have control over the work an artist creates.

Everyone ultimately answers to someone.

[[Edit: Not that I am saying bioware owes anyone an ending. Just that this idea that art isn't changed is silly. ]]

Modifié par Mims, 16 mars 2012 - 02:18 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

dammit bioware I need proper closure

[Marta Rio II]

Integrity is a funny word.

Would anyone accuse George Lucas of lacking integrity if he edited out Jar-Jar from Episode I?  Or restore the scene where "Han shoots first" to it's original state?

Heck no, people would be celebrating.  People would be praising Lucas for finally realizing that he's fallible, that he's not some god who deigns himself better than the fans for whom he produces content.  People would ADORE him for doing it.

I'd agree that sure, one way of having artistic integrity is sticking to your guns even if a large part of your audience hates what you've done with your intellectual property. 

But I'd argue that another way of retaining integrity as an artist is to admit when you might have made a bad choice.  You don't always have to double down (like Lucas) when someone points out a mistake.

[Aedan276]

Gilliy wrote...

Stupid not being able to post on my main account because of Origin >.<

Okay, first of all, saying that video games aren't art is probably the worst thing we as gamers can say. That statement alone is going to set back video games decades. It is art. Just as films are art, and books are art, and photography is art, and music is art, and physical and digital art is art.

Just because they're also interactive and entertaining does in no way make it less art. By saying this you are demeaning the effort and hard work and creativity that goes into them. Even poorly done video game or games that you are dissatisfied with.

Stop using that as an excuse to bash our outlet. All it will do is prove the anti-gaming community right. that it's just a toy and not another means of adult entertainment (and no I don't mean porn.)

Secondly -- The ending's aren't bad. They're just not what you expected. It doesn't matter if you expected happy endings or sad endings or something else all together. They're just not what you thought you wanted.

It's perfectly alright to be upset. It's perfectly okay to voice it. It wasn't what you thought, it wasn't what you hoped for, and perhaps even it wasn't what marketing lead you to believe. But not everyone feels that way. Bashing your face against your keyboard to tell them how wrong they are for not feeling the same way as you do is childish and irresponsible.

If you'd like to see it changed, added to, improved upon -- then by all means do. Please. Be vocal and constructive rather then hateful. Don't jump down other peoples throats for disagreeing with you. Some of us have found the ending satisfactory. Some of us enjoyed it. Some of us are perfectly okay, hell even satisfied with how it turned out.

It gives us something to discuss, something to analyze and pick over. It gives us something to put a magnifying glass to and spend weeks and months deconstructing and reconstructing. And that's not a bad thing.

For those folks up in arms about what might have happened to the rest of the galaxy, go back and read your war assets and codex entries. None of the races with you brought their civilians. They're all back on their respective worlds, colonies, and solar systems. The Quarians don't bring their liveships -- they leave them on Rannoch to rebuild. It says as much in the war assets and in the codexes. The Krogan are already repopulating -- Wrex makes note that Eve is already pregnant and back on Tuchunka rallying the women and young.

This is getting long winded. The TLDR version is that yes it is perfectly okay for you to be mad, but don't bash folks who aren't, and don't insult our favored artistic medium because of your dissatisfaction. That's not going to help.

We're arguing back against the accusation that we're anti-artistic, rather than anti-corporatist. It's fine to jump down the throats of people who make no effort to try and understand the issue. 

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Mims wrote...

I do want to note that I love how people are saying artists never change work, because they live in some lofty world where they do it for the artistry.

The art world is SO corporate. Even if it is refuge in absurdity, you better believe a gallery and patrons have control over the work an artist creates.

Everyone ultimately answers to someone.

[[Edit: Not that I am saying bioware owes anyone an ending. Just that this idea that art isn't changed is silly. ]]

Tolkien was forever changing the lord of thr rings and the hobbit

[Nugralsa1]

Sidra2099 wrote...

Look, it's not like we're walking into a museum for free and demanding that artist X changes his art because we don't like it. He did that art either for himself of for another client, and thus, we have no grounds to demand that he change it.

But say you take cooking as an art. The chef can be as creative as he pleases in his food and in his menu decisions. Nobody can stop him from CREATING new dishes or recipes or menus. But when a customer (us) pays good money to eat the food, then our opinions matter.

Whether we like it or not determines if we come back, if we recommend the place to friends, and thus whether he gets money to keep his 'art' running. In choosing to turn his 'art' into a PRODUCT (which does not necessarily diminish its artistic quality, by the way), he is forced to deal with economic realities of running a business - that customers aren't paying you do do 'art' for you, they're paying you to do art for them.

Certainly, there are customers you can't ever please. Customers who constantly send meals back for spurious reasons. But if a large percentage of your customers are complaining that your food is bad , then you have an issue. You can defend your food on the grounds that the customers tastes aren't refined enough for the food, or that they 'don't get it', but that argument has always come across as insulting, and I am willing to be that it has never once worked to convince an angry customer to give anyone a second chance.

It's even worse when customers can objectively prove that the food is bad. If critics or savvy customers can comprehensively list objective standards compared to which the food is poor, then the whole argument of 'we're maligned only by the subjective opinions of whiners' holds much less water. This has been done in several threads that fairly comprehensively demonstrate that the literary techniques used by the writers are sub-par, or cliche.

In the end, it really boils down to 'Who has a stake in my art, and in the future of my art'. If you are doing art for your own personal satisfaction or fulfilment, then nobody has any rights to question you. But when you CHARGE people to enjoy your art, you had better take their opinion seriously.
It's just good business. They CHOSE to make a living off their 'art', and if they want to be able to afford to KEEP doing that, they have to offer us a lot more than 'integrity'.

It's economic sense. Making 'art' is expensive. So you sell it to customers. If they don't like it, you can tell them to go to hell. So you get less money. Which might impact your ability to do more/better art. If it keeps up, then you go broke, and do NO art. If you want to have creative standards in your work, that is a laudable goal. But subjective creative standards CANNOT come at the expense of the customer.

Otherwise, what is to stop companies from making shoddy products, and writers and artists from making insipid, uninspired work and hiding behind 'creative licence'? Experimental, controversial work is fine, but it is silly to expect to introduce your work to the free market, attempt to reap the economic benefits of it, and then try to change the rules with 'artistic integrity' as an excuse for a shoddy product.

You'r right but the chef can just say: "Ehi dude..u don't know a **** of art (cooking in this case)".He lost a customer,ofcourse,but...maybe he is right,maybe not he is an artist.
I think Bioware made the ending like the writer want.Period.
90% of playerbase don't like the ending?Well..the end is 20 minutes of a 100+ hr game so...human is not perfect and what he made is not perfect too.Anyway,if u want,just drop Bioware games and don't buy not from them anymore.When ME 1 come out,in 2007,the game was a one shot chance and,BioWare got lucky cause the game have sell tons of copies.With the end they screwed up,90% of playerbase say,so don't know...why u still here at moaning and crying?Bioware owe nothing to us customer.We bought a game,we GOT a game (a great game be honest) of 30 hr lenght.Period.If they are artist and not marketing ****es the end will remain this...or maybe i'm a ****** and the indoctrination theory is right o.O in that case well...congratulation BioWare u'r really one of the best ARTIST company of the last 20 years.

[DungeonHoek]

Aedan276 wrote...

pkmn wrote...

When Dickens gave into readers and changed the ending to Great Expectations, it was one of the great failings in the art of literature. That the masses, rather than the artist, would dictate  the conclusion of a brilliant work of literature was about as anti-art as you can get.

Bioware is faced with a similar dilemma now. Some very vocal fans are demanding a DLC that adds another alternative happy ending.

Bioware, please realize that this is a crossroads for video games as an art form. If you give into fans, you will be showing that the ending of videogames is decided by the masses rather than by the artist - you will be tarnishing a great work of art; you'll be forever disgracing the idea that video games can be seen as an art form.

While I was not entirely pleased with the 10 second cutscene at the end of the game, I correctly realize that the entirety of Mass Effect 3 is the "ending". The ending starts as soon as you start a new game. The previous two acts were seen in Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. People are putting too much stock in a 10 second cutscene and ignoring the rest of the ending. I also realize that it is Bioware's story to end - not mine, and that of not the very vocal trolls and haters on this forum.

Why do these threads always ignore we were promised an ending that wasn't A, B, or C? That's a mighty tolerant attitude to have after five years and hundreds of dollars. 

I feel like I gave enough to Bioware to receive the ending I was led to anticipate by both interviews and the overall structure of the trilogy. 

Isn't it obvious?, it's deliberate. You and everyone else, myself included are staring at an actual trolling thread. Designed to sucker people in get them riled up, and get the fighting started. Or rather, continued. And it is rather successful. As the best trolling is disguised under the pretense of seriousness.

Strike at the biggest sore spot on a hot topic, and you are sure to succeed. And what is the biggest sore spot of the forums?, the ending to Mass Effect 3.

I highly doubt that even a fraction of these types of threads are started by people are actually concerned about the outcome of the game, or what Bioware will do. They're just in it to laugh at the stupid ones that fall for it.

And its working well, this forum is lit up like a fire that can be seen from orbit.

[Rosey]

Aedan276 wrote...

Gilliy wrote...
*some stuff, because quote trees suck*.

We're arguing back against the accusation that we're anti-artistic, rather than anti-corporatist. It's fine to jump down the throats of people who make no effort to try and understand the issue.

See, no it's not. Because by jumping down their throats, they instantly win what ever argument they're trying to pose. It makes you (generization) look like the aggressor, attacking someone for having a different opinion. Thus they win by default. It's the nature of internet arguments.

Rather then jumping down their throats, either don't respond at all (no attention = losing) or if you feel you must respond, do it with out the anger, insults, or VIDIEO GAMES AREN'T ART rants ;p Being level headed often times can shut down an argument or bring someone unexpected over to your camp.


*Professor's cap*

Modifié par Gilliy, 16 mars 2012 - 02:24 .

[Matt561]

If they had integrity to begin with they would have kept to their word and none of this would even be happening.