45 réponses à ce sujet

[Ulrik the Slayer]

Now, I haven't really tried an Archer, but as I'm planning on one I was reading up on the various issues with bows/crossbows. I also learned that ranged weapons are supposed to get a damage bonus from Strength! Really? Reaaaaally? That's incredibly stupid!

Because bows have a limit as to how far back you can pull the bowstring until you break it. Not like you can get a friggin ogre to pull the bowsting 10km back and fire an arrow that insta-gibbs anything for 1.000.000 damage!

Ranged damage, no matter what ranged weapon you use of the games available weapons (throwing weapons are another thing, but DA:O doesn't have that...) they should all recieve damage bonus purely from Dexterity. However, Longbows and Crossbows should have Strength requirements in order to equip them due to the wieght and pull resistance of the weapons.

...like they do in DnD.

[Torias]

That's the way the game was designed... and it was designed to be a game, not a simulator...

[Ulrik the Slayer]

Neither was Dungeons and Dragons. Or rather, Baldur's Gate series, Icewind Dale series ect ect. If it aint broken, don't fix it. Should've left the rules for ranged weapons as they were, BioWare.

[Aussenseiter]

Maximum draw distance is determined by the strength of the user.

How doesn't it make sense?



I mean yeah, realistically, it _would_ cap out at some point, but also realistically your dexterity wouldn't affect how deeply your shots penetrate either, only how accurately and quickly you can fire.



Also yeah, its a game.

[Inarai]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

Neither was Dungeons and Dragons. Or rather, Baldur's Gate series, Icewind Dale series ect ect. If it aint broken, don't fix it. Should've left the rules for ranged weapons as they were, BioWare.

There is no "as they were".  You're in a new system built from scratch.  So what if it's not the same as another?

[Ulrik the Slayer]

Aussenseiter wrote...

Maximum draw distance is determined by the strength of the user.
How doesn't it make sense?

Because bows aren't axes. Or swords. There is a limit to how hard you can swing a melee weapon; the stronger you are, the more forcefull the blow.

A bow, however, should not do more damage if a stronger person pulls the string because it would break if pulled too far back. As long as you're strong enough to use the bow, any extra strenght should not matter because it is of no use when firing a bow.

I.e a bow that requires 40 strenght to fire shouldn't do more damage in the hands of a character with 45 strength than someone with 40 because both are able to fully pull the string.

Modifié par Ulrik the Slayer, 29 novembre 2009 - 12:10 .

[Aussenseiter]

But you don't need to be able to hit the maximum draw distance of a bow in order to fire it.

And the person who did meet the maximum draw distance will penetrate further than the person who could not.



I understand what you are saying, realistically the bow SHOULD have an upward limit because yes, you cannot fire the arrow harder than the bow will allow.

But programming every bow to have a different strength cap would be a nightmare; and objectively dexterity really does not make any more sense because how fast you can move your hands doesn't actually have anything to do with how deeply the arrow would penetrate, either.

[kevinwastaken]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

Aussenseiter wrote...

Maximum draw distance is determined by the strength of the user.
How doesn't it make sense?

Because bows aren't axes. Or swords. There is a limit to how hard you can swing a melee weapon; the stronger you are, the more forcefull the blow.

A bow, however, should not do more damage if a stronger person pulls the string because it would break if pulled too far back. As long as you're strong enough to use the bow, any extra strenght should not matter because it is of no use when firing a bow.

I.e a bow that requires 40 strenght to fire shouldn't do more damage in the hands of a character with 45 strength than someone with 40 because both are able to fully pull the string.

You fire a lot of bows, don't you? Robin Hood...

[Ulrik the Slayer]

*sigh*



If you meet the stats requirement for a bow, you can use it to maximum effectiveness already. You can't pull a bowstring further than the maximum for bonus damage.



I'll repeat: If a bow requires 40 strength to fire, and a character in DA:O whom meets the requirements they can utilize the weapon to its maximum effective, i.e draw distance. Then if you have 40 or 50 Strength should not matter. Bows don't work that way.

[Gecon]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...
A bow, however, should not do more damage if a stronger person pulls the string because it would break if pulled too far back.

A single particular bow - yes. Every bow has one specific strength needed to use it.

However, a bow can be made as hard to use as you want - just make the bow more massive, and it will require even more pull than before.

Bioware saved you the hassle with having to find or craft a bow that matches exactly to your current strength (which, thanks to the way they designed their system, would require that you would need to find a new bow every level unless you wouldnt raise strength again).

[Aussenseiter]

But if you are going by the idea that a character who has 40 strength is meeting the maximum draw distance of a bow, then a character with say, 35 strength should still be able to use it, just not as effectively.



And this is why using real life logic in video games doesn't really work.

[Ginnerben]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

*sigh*

If you meet the stats requirement for a bow, you can use it to maximum effectiveness already. You can't pull a bowstring further than the maximum for bonus damage.

I'll repeat: If a bow requires 40 strength to fire, and a character in DA:O whom meets the requirements they can utilize the weapon to its maximum effective, i.e draw distance. Then if you have 40 or 50 Strength should not matter. Bows don't work that way.

Unless of course you increase the tension.  

Besides, its an abstraction.  It could in fact represent you firing faster, because you can more easily draw the bow.  That's another thing that is easily represented by a rise in DPS.  

[thestreaker]

Presumably dexterity affects your aim (as in, hitting vital parts of the body), your ability to handle the bow & arrow etc. This should contribute heavily to the end damage. Strength... well I'm a pretty strong guy and I'm pretty sure I couldn't do jack with a bow.



So what is the longbow damage pre-hotfix? Is it just 100% strength? That definitely doesn't make much sense.

[gurugeorge]

Strength contributing to damage seems perfectly reasonable to me - longbows do require strength to pull, and also to have STEADY aim.

[Mnemnosyne]

It is possible to fire a bow effectively without pulling the string to its maximum draw. Therefore, minimum requirement to fire a bow does not mean the maximum strength that is needed in order to pull the string all the way back. If a bow can handle 180 pounds of draw force but you're only strong enough to exert 100 pounds of draw force, you can still fire the bow. But being stronger would allow you to draw it further. A bow with a 150 pound draw force at a 30 inch draw could still be fired with say, a 25 inch draw.

[Ulrik the Slayer]

gurugeorge wrote...

Strength contributing to damage seems perfectly reasonable to me - longbows do require strength to pull, and also to have STEADY aim.

Argh! If you have the stats needed to use something, you can automatically use it to it's full potential! Its not like:

"Okay, here's this bow, see. It requires 40 strenght to hold and fire. But in order to pull the string waaaaaay back, you'll need 45 strength!"

...

[Mnemnosyne]

I think you're confusing the words 'minimum' and 'maximum'. Look them up and see the difference.



Here's a comparison. Take a look at the box a game comes in. Notice it has a little text box saying "minimum requirements"? That's what you need in order to run it. It doesn't mean that having more won't help.



Minimum requirement != maximum potential.

[Ulrik the Slayer]

*sigh*

I'm talking about in-game mechanics, not of real-life logic. Armour doesn't start to offer you more protection when you increase your strength above the requirement, does it? That's because if you meet the required strength your character is at maximum efficiency already! Now, meele weapons can always be swung harder at a rate proportional to your strength and that makes sense. That bows do more damage, however, does not. Well, unless you actually end up throwing it at an enemy.

But whatever; you all seem perfectly happy with the bows in their current gimped state. Now excuse me, I'm gonna go start a Mage and play the game as the developers wanted me to.

Modifié par Ulrik the Slayer, 29 novembre 2009 - 01:51 .

[GoldenusG]

They're magical bows. The string is enchanted so as not to break.

[Ulrik the Slayer]

GoldenusG wrote...

They're magical bows. The string is enchanted so as not to break.

No they're not. Some are, but the majority isn't.<_<

[Ginnerben]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

gurugeorge wrote...

Strength contributing to damage seems perfectly reasonable to me - longbows do require strength to pull, and also to have STEADY aim.

Argh! If you have the stats needed to use something, you can automatically use it to it's full potential! Its not like:

"Okay, here's this bow, see. It requires 40 strenght to hold and fire. But in order to pull the string waaaaaay back, you'll need 45 strength!"

...

I don't see how that's unreasonable.  Is there any weapon that's not like that?  Hell, you accept that improved dexterity should improve it.  

I like the suggestion before - To aim properly you need to be able to steady it.  In that case, strength contributes just as much to aiming as dexterity does.  


EDIT: Oh, and if you think Mages > Archers, two things for you.  One, the Dex fix.  Bows are currently bugged.  It will change soon.  Two, I've never seen a mage hit for anything near Arrow of Slaying, outside of Mana Clash.  

Modifié par Ginnerben, 29 novembre 2009 - 02:02 .

[aindel]

how would dexterity actually affect the power the arrow is launched at from a long bow or even a short bow dexterity in this case has nothing more to do other than how fast the arrows could be launched at the target and how accurate they would be. having dexterity as a damage modifier for these weapons is as silly as two hand weapon dmg being determined by wisdom.

Modifié par aindel, 29 novembre 2009 - 02:03 .

[Ulrik the Slayer]

But if you got the friggin stats to equip the friggin bow you are already as friggin steady as you need, 'lest you wouldn't be able to use the friggin thing to begin with...

[GoldenusG]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

GoldenusG wrote...

They're magical bows. The string is enchanted so as not to break.

No they're not. Some are, but the majority isn't.<_<

It's a base enchantment, known to every fletcher in the world of Thedas.  Its so commonplace, they don't even consider it to be magical.  Onyl we mere mundane mortals know better.  It's the same type of magic that allows swords not to become pitted, or nicked, and armour not to split or rust.

[Aussenseiter]

Yes, why I even believe that same magical enchantment is the one that makes bow strings invisible!