45 réponses à ce sujet

[Kangaxx_54]

I practise archery in RL, with a longbow, and I have to say, strength is a huge part of it. Bows come in different 'weights', that is, the weight required to draw it. In games, this would translate to how much damage they do. In reality, it determines how well they can push through armor and bone (don't know the english term). A warbow was at least 80 pounds, IIRC, and often over 100 pounds (for reference, modern hunting bows are at most 75 pounds). If you have never tried to pull a bow, you might not realize how hard it is, but drawing a bow is a motion that is very different from everything else we do, and therefore it can be very difficult to draw even a 40 pound bow. Even if you were capable of drawing a heavy bow, you might not have the strength required to keep it still and aim, and you would also tire out very quickly. If you can't keep the bow absolutely still while you aim, you won't be able to hit precisely, and tiring out isn't exactly a good thing either.

On the other hand, if you can easily draw an 80 pound bow, then you wouldn't benefit from having more muscle strength. But having enough strength to draw the bow and enough to shoot it easily are two very different things.

Edit: As for only drawing 20 inches instead of the full draw length... well, I can only say that I hope it's a really huge barn you're hoping to hit. It's not really easier to pull a bow string 20 inches instead of 30 inches. Not enough that it'd matter.

Modifié par Kangaxx_54, 29 novembre 2009 - 02:12 .

[Ulrik the Slayer]

Whatever. Keep your realistic explanation and gimp archery for all I care. I already said I'm giving up and rolling a Mage, as the developers intended.

[xcorps]

But having enough strength to draw the bow and enough to shoot it easily are two very different things.

It seems to me that the minimum requirements to use a weapon are the minimum requirements to use the weapon. Pulling a bowstring back isn't using a bow, it's pulling a bowstring, right?



What difference does it make to damage if I can hold a nocked arrow at the ready for 30 seconds of aim time, and you can hold it for 5 minutes? None. The damage of the arrow is a result of a puncture wound generated by a missile traveling at a velocity generated by the spring action of wood. To have a legit arguement for +dmg due to strength allowing you to hold longer so as to aim better you would have to apply a penalty to fire rate, right?



Now, applying the str bonus instead of dex bonus for a certain class of bows allowing Str heavy characters the opportunity to use that Str bonus for bows is a balance decision, and a good one.

[Ulrik the Slayer]

Heavy str-based characters are better of using Crossbows anyway, so... All it does is derive from more important stats for an archer, i.e cunning if you're a rogue.

[Loetek]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

Now, I haven't really tried an Archer, but as I'm planning on one I was reading up on the various issues with bows/crossbows. I also learned that ranged weapons are supposed to get a damage bonus from Strength! Really? Reaaaaally? That's incredibly stupid!

Because bows have a limit as to how far back you can pull the bowstring until you break it. Not like you can get a friggin ogre to pull the bowsting 10km back and fire an arrow that insta-gibbs anything for 1.000.000 damage!

Ranged damage, no matter what ranged weapon you use of the games available weapons (throwing weapons are another thing, but DA:O doesn't have that...) they should all recieve damage bonus purely from Dexterity. However, Longbows and Crossbows should have Strength requirements in order to equip them due to the wieght and pull resistance of the weapons.

...like they do in DnD.

You do realize that in real life not all bows have the same pull back poundage right? So a 80lb draw bow is going to fire harder than a 60lb draw bow. Strength makes far more sense to me than Dexterity.

Modifié par Loetek, 29 novembre 2009 - 02:41 .

[xcorps]

You do realize that in real life not all bows have the same pull back poundage right? So a 80lb draw bow is going to fire harder than a 60lb draw bow. Strength makes far more sense to me Dexterity.

He is talking about the STR modifier, not the base damage. Having a high enough strength to use the 80lb pound shouldn't give you more damage if you are using the 60lb bow. Having a strength high enough to USE an 80lb bow allows you to USE the bow. Having more strength than it takes to USE the bow won't make the arrow hit harder. The arrows impact and penetration are a result of a reaction that strength is simply not a factor in, except to determine that the mechanical action of the bow firing the arrow requires a certain amount of work to accomplish. Any potential work that exists beyond what it takes to satisfy the requirements of the mechanical action is wasted.

[Sozen-]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

Whatever. Keep your realistic explanation and gimp archery for all I care. I already said I'm giving up and rolling a Mage, as the developers intended.

Wasn't the whole point of this thread you claiming that strength as a damage modifier doesn't make sense logically and realistically?

[aberdash]

I thought it was already established that the characters are actually throwing the arrows since bows have no bowstrings. So higher strength means they can throw it harder.

[Sozen-]

xcorps wrote...

You do realize that in real life not all bows have the same pull back poundage right? So a 80lb draw bow is going to fire harder than a 60lb draw bow. Strength makes far more sense to me Dexterity.

He is talking about the STR modifier, not the base damage. Having a high enough strength to use the 80lb pound shouldn't give you more damage if you are using the 60lb bow. Having a strength high enough to USE an 80lb bow allows you to USE the bow. Having more strength than it takes to USE the bow won't make the arrow hit harder. The arrows impact and penetration are a result of a reaction that strength is simply not a factor in, except to determine that the mechanical action of the bow firing the arrow requires a certain amount of work to accomplish. Any potential work that exists beyond what it takes to satisfy the requirements of the mechanical action is wasted.

Who's to say what the actual requirement listed on the weapon denotes? It could mean optimal usage like you say or it could mean you can only just use the bow well enough for it to be reliable. Say the strength figure means that you can pull the string back the whole way but you are shaking too much to make the shot completely accurate and increasing your strength reduces the shaking and allows you to aim for the weak spots in the armour. This would deal more damage so it makes sense to have strength as a damage modifier, though it would make more sense to be a critical strike change increase.

[sumdood]

Remember that bows in Dragon Age don't have strings.  You are physically throwing the arrows, so damage would logically scale with strength.

[Loetek]

Sozen- wrote...

xcorps wrote...

You do realize that in real life not all bows have the same pull back poundage right? So a 80lb draw bow is going to fire harder than a 60lb draw bow. Strength makes far more sense to me Dexterity.

He is talking about the STR modifier, not the base damage. Having a high enough strength to use the 80lb pound shouldn't give you more damage if you are using the 60lb bow. Having a strength high enough to USE an 80lb bow allows you to USE the bow. Having more strength than it takes to USE the bow won't make the arrow hit harder. The arrows impact and penetration are a result of a reaction that strength is simply not a factor in, except to determine that the mechanical action of the bow firing the arrow requires a certain amount of work to accomplish. Any potential work that exists beyond what it takes to satisfy the requirements of the mechanical action is wasted.

Who's to say what the actual requirement listed on the weapon denotes? It could mean optimal usage like you say or it could mean you can only just use the bow well enough for it to be reliable. Say the strength figure means that you can pull the string back the whole way but you are shaking too much to make the shot completely accurate and increasing your strength reduces the shaking and allows you to aim for the weak spots in the armour. This would deal more damage so it makes sense to have strength as a damage modifier, though it would make more sense to be a critical strike change increase.

Ok we are not talking about Compound bows here... there is no locking mech on the bows in the game. Unless your using a crossbow in which we are not talking about. A 80lb draw bow does not have a set stopping point. Thus the harder you pull back, the harder it will be to pull back. A 80lb draw Long or short bow can very easily go up to or over 120lb draw depending on the legth of your arms. Stregth determins how far a arrow can go with non compound bows. And the reason it can go further is because its getting shot harder... simply physics.

[Ulrik the Slayer]

Sozen- wrote...

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

Whatever. Keep your realistic explanation and gimp archery for all I care. I already said I'm giving up and rolling a Mage, as the developers intended.

Wasn't the whole point of this thread you claiming that strength as a damage modifier doesn't make sense logically and realistically?

No, it doesn't make sense in-game-wise and it hampers the archer-type character. Why shouldn't armour give you more protection the stronger you are? After all, following the rules set for bows, the higher the strength goes above the requirement, the "better" you can use the armour so it somehow reduces more damage, eventhough the thickness and such remains the same.

Modifié par Ulrik the Slayer, 29 novembre 2009 - 03:08 .

[Vinditater]

Hey it's a fantasy game, simply say " Oh Thank the Maker they switched physics and how weapon draw works so we can have strength modify the damage instead of dexterity."



It's a game, Armchair General Patton, enjoy it.

[Loetek]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

Sozen- wrote...

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

Whatever. Keep your realistic explanation and gimp archery for all I care. I already said I'm giving up and rolling a Mage, as the developers intended.

Wasn't the whole point of this thread you claiming that strength as a damage modifier doesn't make sense logically and realistically?

No, it doesn't make sense in-game-wise and it hampers the archer-type character. Why shouldn't armour give you more protection the stronger you are? After all, following the rules set for bows, the higher the strength goes above the requirement, the "better" you can use the armour so it somehow reduces more damage, eventhough the thickness and such remains the same.

Um how do you know if the armor weighs the same? Or if its the same Thickness? As if Thickness has anything do to Mass or material density.

I dont even know why i have to say this but: The stronger you are... the heavier the gear you can hold and the harder you can pull back on a bow. Case closed.

[Ulrik the Slayer]

And suggesting things to improve the game is...what? Seriously, there is no denial that archery is in a very poor state at the moment. Something has to be done, and no - a usermade hotfix isn't enough since it doesn't help us poor smucks with the console versions.

[Loetek]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

And suggesting things to improve the game is...what? Seriously, there is no denial that archery is in a very poor state at the moment. Something has to be done, and no - a usermade hotfix isn't enough since it doesn't help us poor smucks with the console versions.

You suggested no improvement... You started compaining about how Str modifies the damage output of bows. And stated that it shouldn't... it should only be dex. 

The only thing I find wrong with archery is that there are no Crit % added to the tooltips from the archery abilities. It only displays Crit % from worn gear. And im sure that would make you mad if they fixed that because it wouldn't be nurfing archery.

And the hotfix for dex is not user made. Its going to be rolled up into the first big patch. And it only fixes shortbows not long bows... and its not removing the bonus damage from strength.

Modifié par Loetek, 29 novembre 2009 - 03:23 .

[Vinditater]

Wow Archery definitely does not suck in the game, not in the least. Scattershot is damn near the most amazing skill in the game, and Arrow of Slaying is probably the best null/void starting skill around. That and combined with intelligent use of traps, you become a monster on the field, even more so with confined hallways, or anything of the sort.

[Ginnerben]

a usermade hotfix

If by "usermade" you mean Georg Zoller, then yes, I'm sure he is a user.  He's also part of the development team.

Its still in testing, that's all.  Its not been rolled out, but will be part of the next official update.

So, in short, do some research before spouting rubbish.  

[Wardawg1001]

This thread is full of lulz.

[November627]

Seriously, I don't understand why there's a need to resort to apples to oranges here comparing bow effectiveness with armor effectiveness. Since it was so easy to say that you can be more effective with axes at higher strength, look at that as an example. If my axe says i need 35 str, that's the MINIMUM. As I increase my strength, I do more damage with it.



Holy smokes, it makes sense using in game mechanics too!

[Allen63]

Real war bows (I have a replica longbow at real pull weight plus many other bows) required loads of strength to draw.



Stronger archers carried stronger bows. So, hitting power WAS a function of strength.



English longbows ranged from 80 to 120 pounds of pull. By comparison, a typical modern "deer hunters" bow is 50 pounds. Only a very strong person can pull an 80 pound bow. And precious few today can pull 120 pounds. So, there should be a minimum strength requirement just to "try" to use a war bow.



I thought this was to be in DA.