145 réponses à ce sujet

[Obrusnine]

That's what makes being human fun.

By the way, there is such thing as flawed art. Especially when pieces of it conflict with other pieces of itself...

[LinksOcarina]

Obrusnine wrote...

That's what makes being human fun.

By the way, there is such thing as flawed art. Especially when pieces of it conflict with other pieces of itself...

that doesnt necessarily mean its flawed. That just means its kitsch. 

Granted thats a negative term...but then again most art critics are pretentious.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 16 mars 2012 - 04:31 .

[X-per]

As a working commercial artist I can tell you you're all freakin wrong.

The contract for creation of creating a work for someone generally includes the amount of revisions they get to make to it.

In other words, it's not my art, it's the paying customers art, and they get to direct changes to it, irregardless if that clashes with my artistic vision or not.

After all, they're paying for it.

[AyatoSilvermane]

Arguing that Mass Effect isn't a form of visual AND literary art is like arguing a volkswagon vechile isn't a car.

[CBKeffer]

Arkitekt wrote...

It is both a product and art.

You are entitled to say anything you want about the product / art.

You are entitled to complain.

However other people are also entitled to ridicule what is blatantly over-the-top whining.

This, very much this. As with anything, honest and legitimate critique should be considered, for example the clear and concise issues people have raised with the plot holes and thematic issues the end of the game has, but simple screams about not getting a happy ending, or simply not liking it should be ignored as there is nothing construscive that can be taken away from them. If you have an issue with the game, don't just state that you dislike it, explain why this takes your concerns from whining to legitimate critique and makes them into something that can be addressed properly. This does not mean you will necessarily like the way your concerns are addressed, but they will have more weight than a simple "it sucks".

Also, as a professional artist, the notion that art should be free seriously annoys me. I've gotta pay the bills just like anyone else, so why should I not be compensated for something I create just like anyone else would be?

[Arkitekt]

X-per wrote...

As a working commercial artist I can tell you you're all freakin wrong.

The contract for creation of creating a work for someone generally includes the amount of revisions they get to make to it.

In other words, it's not my art, it's the paying customers art, and they get to direct changes to it, irregardless if that clashes with my artistic vision or not.

After all, they're paying for it.

Nice joke.

[FarBey0ndDr1v3n]

 If you dont agree with how bioware has handled the release and ending of ME3 make a choice in our capitalistic democracy and dont buy their game. 

[Derengard]

This art/product stuff really seems just semantics and old gamer sores from clashes with so-called "snobs"...

The basic assumptions seem to be about a developer's defensive claim of immunity, where the original vision, while maybe not popular, remains intact, and the possibility to criticize that vision even based on or against its own assumptions. It's basically what has been going on all the time already, just in a slightly new and more "controversial" form.

[X-per]

Arkitekt wrote...

X-per wrote...

As a working commercial artist I can tell you you're all freakin wrong.

The contract for creation of creating a work for someone generally includes the amount of revisions they get to make to it.

In other words, it's not my art, it's the paying customers art, and they get to direct changes to it, irregardless if that clashes with my artistic vision or not.

After all, they're paying for it.

Nice joke.

Not a joke, when I do design work for an ad campaign, it generally includes up to three revisions at the customer's behest right in the contract.

Is pretty much a standard clause for commercial artists, especially in the digital field.

It is what it is, art or not the paying customer has the final say.

[Arkitekt]

X-per wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

X-per wrote...

As a working commercial artist I can tell you you're all freakin wrong.

The contract for creation of creating a work for someone generally includes the amount of revisions they get to make to it.

In other words, it's not my art, it's the paying customers art, and they get to direct changes to it, irregardless if that clashes with my artistic vision or not.

After all, they're paying for it.

Nice joke.

Not a joke, when I do design work for an ad campaign, it generally includes up to three revisions at the customer's behest right in the contract.

Is pretty much a standard clause for commercial artists, especially in the digital field.

It is what it is, art or not the paying customer has the final say.

It's a joke. Your "usual" contract has zero, zilch, nada, to do with the EULA contract that the players "accept" when they buy the game, so your argument is utterly irrelevant.

[redplague]

Well the product of Mass Effect is not art, but contents of the products are art. Such as the music for example and cutscenes.

[redplague]

Adding to that the creation of the locations are art as they were designed originally by artists.

[bawb44]

Mass Effect is not art, it can be classified as art as can anything. It is a video game and thus not as important as the "masses" of fans are claiming. I loved the game, will continue to support it, but I can not call it art, there is art within it. I still don't understand all the whining about the endings and all the other hooplah people are turning this into, it ruled. I will continue to support BioWare and any or all of their games and DLC except the MP stuff.

[InvincibleHero]

@ OP is a movie art and is writing art? YES everyone that is sane would say so. ME has a script with voice actors doing their lines like an actor in a movie would. It is visually shown like a movie in cutscenes. They draw concept art and turn it into digital incarnations. Is drawing/painting art? Again yes.

The fact that it is interactive negates none of it. Gameplay is the reason for gaming yet the artwork, and dialog, and everything else create the whole package.

[Lendorien]

I posted this in another thread:

Look, in the real world, if art is crappy, people won't buy it. Why should it be any different in gaming?

If anyone is entitled it's the game makers who shovel unfinished, unfulfilling games out the door and expect us to shell out our money, buy it and like it without expressing our sincere feedback over it.

Sorry, guess what? We're consumers and as consumers we have the right to complain when a product does not live up to expectations, or has been lied about. We even have a right to demand fixes for the product.

How the heck is a game any different? Because it's "Art?" Hell no. It's a consumer product. It may in time be viewed as art, but that's not why it's sold. It's sold to make money. It's sold to consumers who make a buying decision to SPEND money on it.

Heck, if you buy a car, find that you love it, but shocks make horrible squeaking noises every time you hit a bump, wouldn't you expect the dealer or car maker to fix it? Wouldn't it affect whether or not you buy another car of that brand if it wasn't?

Well, every time I play ME3, I get a nonsensical unfulfilling end. I expect Bioware to fix it. And if they don't, that will affect my future purchasing decisions.

That's not entitlement, that's market forces at work.

Modifié par Lendorien, 16 mars 2012 - 05:07 .

[redplague]

Thinking of it, there is very little of Mass Effect that isn't art. I mean storytelling is art as well isn't it? Maybe not by dictionary definition maybe but certainly in terms of creativity.

[X-per]

Arkitekt wrote...

X-per wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

X-per wrote...

As a working commercial artist I can tell you you're all freakin wrong.

The contract for creation of creating a work for someone generally includes the amount of revisions they get to make to it.

In other words, it's not my art, it's the paying customers art, and they get to direct changes to it, irregardless if that clashes with my artistic vision or not.

After all, they're paying for it.

Nice joke.

Not a joke, when I do design work for an ad campaign, it generally includes up to three revisions at the customer's behest right in the contract.

Is pretty much a standard clause for commercial artists, especially in the digital field.

It is what it is, art or not the paying customer has the final say.

It's a joke. Your "usual" contract has zero, zilch, nada, to do with the EULA contract that the players "accept" when they buy the game, so your argument is utterly irrelevant.

Got no idea what the EULA has to do with this. I certainly didn't read a clause in the EULA that I had to like what they did. Must have been really fine print.


I'm just pointing out that the "It's their art, so there," argument isn't actually how it works when one is making commercial art.

The only time, I get to express my artistic vision solely for me, is when I'm off the clock doing some stuff or me.
The rest of the time, I'm actually interpreting someone else's artistic vision, and since they're paying for it, they get to make changes. I don't get to stomp my foot like a 2 year old and say "It's my art, so you have to like it."
I have to man up and change it, even if I think the client is a blind idiot.

It does apply here, as well, a significantly large portion of the fan base, possibly the majority doesn't like the endings and finds no or few redeeming factors to said endings.
Bioware, now has a choice, it can bring the endings in line with what the fanbase wants, or stand it's ground.
If it stands it's ground, it as a company runs a large and likely risk of few sales of future products, studio closures and unemployment for staff.


Hey but that's all good, after all "It's art, right."

[alienatedflea]

Sezarious wrote...

It is greatly concerning the number of people defending the idea that WE, the customers cannot demand a better ending.

Well [color=rgb(255,0,0)">BIOWARE DOES NOT treat Mass Effect as a peice of art. ]LIKE [/color]A PRODUCT[/b].... BECAUSE IT IS!  It has a monetary value.

Art is priceless.

Mass Effect is $110.00.

Therefore, we as customers may chose whether or not the game is [color=rgb(255,0,0)">WORTH ]WANT[/color] to treat it like a bad TOASTER, we will.  If we WANT BETTER, WE WILL DEMAND BETTER.  Or we will TAKE OUR MONEY ELSEWHERE.

No matter what people would like to think,  Bioware and it's Artists DO NOT have the moral Highground here.  They are SALESPERSONS trying to sell their PRODUCT.  If you don't want it, don't buy it, or return it

If they don't want to change it, they are only HURTING THEMSELVES.

[b]HOLD THE LINE

so art dealers are just dealers? >< ART has value to the person who wants to buy it...so your logic that ART can not be profitable is stupid...surely you think novelists like Stephen King are do not make literary art?...the endings are great...complaining about spilt milk is pointless...just WAIT and see...DLC does take time you know? >.< 

[MARIACHI isBACK]

greghorvath wrote...

Sezarious wrote...

greghorvath wrote...

Is there a separate forum for adults somewhere? Cause I seem to be lost in the kiddie pen where the brats are throwing tantrums...

May I make a point that when a person talks about someone like that, they are placing a judgement on them, therefore placing them above or below their own value.  I am targetting what I beleive to be a problem.  I am not targetting people personally.

Yes, you may. You are right, but unfortunately so am I. Noone wins.

Here is a riddle for you:
there is a musician who has a hit single. 10 years pass with the musician playing that song every single concert and getting utterly frustrated with it. One day he decides not to play that song and the audience goes into a rage. the question is: is that musician only a puppet of the paying audience, or is the audience mature enough to understand that there is a person there on the other side?

This thread tries to simplify something to a degree that is unacceptable.

You have a mythology, interactive storytelling, great visual value, great music (well, up until ME3 at least), great everything but the audience has to pay to access it (just like in the case of music, theatre, galleries, etc). That makes it a product and the fee entitles the buyer to hysterics?

There's 3 different songs sung on 3 different stages by 2 publishers and a very loyal fanbase but note when we get to our 3rd gig the song cuts out abruptly...

[InvincibleHero]

X-per wrote...

As a working commercial artist I can tell you you're all freakin wrong.

The contract for creation of creating a work for someone generally includes the amount of revisions they get to make to it.

In other words, it's not my art, it's the paying customers art, and they get to direct changes to it, irregardless if that clashes with my artistic vision or not.

After all, they're paying for it.

Why do people think because they are an artist they can make a flawed analogy to support what they want?

Proper is you make a piece of art say a painting reproduced 1000s and just put it in stores with a price on it for anyone to buy. You don't care who buys it. Are you going to change it for the first person that comes in and says well I'd buy it if you made a pink sunset instead of orange? Nope. Finished work of art is finished.

It is different when you accept terms before doing the work. There is a direct artist-client collaboration. We did not get a say before hand and BW did not grant us the right to nor did we finance the entire creation of ME 3 individually. We are buying a finsished art product.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 16 mars 2012 - 05:21 .

[slimgrin]

Any creative output falls under the category of art as far as I'm concerned. So video games are art. And last I checked, most artists like to make money.

[MARIACHI isBACK]

Obrusnine wrote...

Sezarious wrote...

It is greatly concerning the number of people defending the idea that WE, the customers cannot demand a better ending.

Well [color=rgb(255, 0, 0)">BIOWARE DOES NOT treat Mass Effect as a peice of art. ]LIKE [/color]A PRODUCT[/b].... BECAUSE IT IS!  It has a monetary value.

Art is priceless.

Mass Effect is $110.00.

Therefore, we as customers may chose whether or not the game is [color=rgb(255, 0, 0)">WORTH ]WANT[/color] to treat it like a bad TOASTER, we will.  If we WANT BETTER, WE WILL DEMAND BETTER.  Or we will TAKE OUR MONEY ELSEWHERE.

No matter what people would like to think,  Bioware and it's Artists DO NOT have the moral Highground here.  They are SALESPERSONS trying to sell their PRODUCT.  If you don't want it, don't buy it, or return it

If they don't want to change it, they are only HURTING THEMSELVES.

[b]HOLD THE LINE

Sorry, but you're wrong.

If art is priceless what are movies or cinematography in general? They aren't art because people have to pay for them?

What about music? You have to pay for that to.

What about literature and books? You also have to pay for that.

What about drawing and painting art? Yup, except for a few historic pieces, most of them have a price and you can buy them. Or order one be drawn up for you.

Then we come to video games, which the debate on whether or not they are art has been going for a long time, but it's nonsense. Video games are the ultimate form of media. They combine a bunch of different pieces of art into a single whole.

Music, cinematography, writing, drawing and painting art... how do you combine all of these different pieces of art into one whole and say they aren't art? That's non-sensical.

Not only is Mass Effect art, but so are a lot of  other great video games.

But just like a lot of art, Mass Effect is flawed art. Flawed art is fixed by the artist. So if they want our respect as artists again, they need to fix their flawed art.

You Sir, are absolutely right.
Now give us DLC Bioware.
Or Sell It.
Or Whatever.

[Fidget6]

Sezarious wrote...

WE WANT PRODUCT, BIOWARE DOES NOT  LIKE HURTING TOASTER SALESPERSONS

Modifié par Fidget6, 16 mars 2012 - 05:21 .

[Degs29]

A video game is akin to a movie or a book.  Seems to be art to me.

The only difference is that many video games can now be changed through updates and DLC.  I don't have a problem with people petitioning for a different ending or making suggestions for future installments.  But this ultimatum for "change the ending or I take my money elsewhere" is bs.  Even if you don't agree with the ending, the game is absolutely stunning in almost all other regards.  By all means, take your money elsewhere if you are severely disappointed. 

The fact is, however, that many people haven't changed their whole perspective on the game due to an undesirable ending and some people don't find the ending undesirable anyway.

[Uchimura]

Mass Effect is a massterpiece.