145 réponses à ce sujet

[tannim1978]

A rose dipped in crap is still a rose....just smells like...well...crap...lol

[alikilar]

hmm Mass effect as a game is 60$ but the amount of storytelling that is put into this game is priceless no game can compare to that so i consider it art.

[Phaize30]

i think the OP is simply saying that the entire argument against the demand a better ending movement is that it is art.. that is their only argument...

[The Razman]

Phaize30 wrote...

i think the OP is simply saying that the entire argument against the demand a better ending movement is that it is art.. that is their only argument...

Yes.

And they're right.

Whatever your feelings about it being a product, it's still an artistic product. And you can't go about demanding artists change their products to suit you. You can't go about saying "We want you to create your product as an artist, but as soon as you do something we don't like, we're going to step in and change it for you". That sets a precendent for any artist being a slave to what they think people will like, rather than the story they want to tell.

It is "their only argument". When you're right, one argument is all you need.

[KorPhaeron]

The Razman wrote...

Phaize30 wrote...

i think the OP is simply saying that the entire argument against the demand a better ending movement is that it is art.. that is their only argument...

Yes.

And they're right.

Whatever your feelings about it being a product, it's still an artistic product. And you can't go about demanding artists change their products to suit you. You can't go about saying "We want you to create your product as an artist, but as soon as you do something we don't like, we're going to step in and change it for you". That sets a precendent for any artist being a slave to what they think people will like, rather than the story they want to tell.

It is "their only argument". When you're right, one argument is all you need.

You can't ?? Is it illegal, immoral ?? If not then I CAN do whatever i please.

[dw99027]

'Art is priceless'???

I stopped reading after that.

[wolfstanus]

It's not art because my opinion says its not.

You know The last period in his post? I liked that part.

[jfood]

Even if it is "art", that simple fact does not inhibit or deny the need of audience involvement and response.

Take Romeo and Juliet, in it's first productions Juliet wakes up just in time to stop Romeo from killing himself. You know who hated that? The unwashed, entitled masses... re: the poors in the pit who got free tickets. Shakespear, not being a self-important wanker, realized that the end was just cornball, so he went back and changed it.

Same thing happened with Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. The removal of Big Daddy, amongst other things, in the third act lead to giant plot-holes and a confusing, haphazard narrative. Tennessee Williams, also not a self-important wanker realized his mistake, then went literally into the poorhouse to rewrite the play so it actually made sense.

Both those people are considered giants of stagecraft and literary geniuses. Both can rightly be called artists. Both understood how being too close to a project can keep you from seeing it's flaws and both understood the importance of audience to the work.

The defense of "artistic vision" is only meant to deflect criticism from hacks who can't deal with the fact they served up a plate of hot, steaming garbage to their audience.

[Darkeus]

The Razman wrote...

Darkeus wrote...

However, it is a form of collaborative art. It is not one person making a piece of art, it is a large group of people contributing art to a product.

I know people want video games to be art so that it validates gaming, but it is more of a product than a piece of art.

Film is as well, though? And most music?

Yes, in the end.  For every artistic movie, there are five movies built just to fill seats that are quite shallow and not very deep.  I believe we call them "popcorn" movies.  For every masterpiece of music, there are five albums that are made just to catch on to a fad and make money.

Most movies are made to make a profit.  Most music is made to make a profit.  I will concede that there are many musicians and movie makers that just want to make something artistic and beautiful, money be damned....

However, in the end, a movie is a product.  Music is a product.  Why do you think that bands and movie companies flip out about copyright issues?  It is not because of "artistic integrity". it is all about them not making money!

Then I have never really subscribed to the idea that movies or music are purely art anyway.  A movie company that loses money on movies is an out of business studio.  The musician that does not try to make money ends up being forgotten or have a underground following that does not make a lot of money.

A game company that does not satisfy their fans is a company that is on the outs.  This works for anything really.  it is called consumer confidence, and every company needs to make sure that it is HIGH for them.

Modifié par Darkeus, 16 mars 2012 - 09:29 .

[Dridengx]

Sezarious wrote...

Art is priceless.

Oh really? So why is it everyone sells their paintings if they are priceless? I think you have Art confused with Priceless works of Art instead of Art lol Hold the line of stupidity you are

[Dridengx]

dw99027 wrote...

'Art is priceless'???

I stopped reading after that.

lol I know. The more they explain the more funny its becoming

[Spinel_]

The Razman wrote...

Phaize30 wrote...

i think the OP is simply saying that the entire argument against the demand a better ending movement is that it is art.. that is their only argument...

Yes.

And they're right.

Whatever your feelings about it being a product, it's still an artistic product. And you can't go about demanding artists change their products to suit you. You can't go about saying "We want you to create your product as an artist, but as soon as you do something we don't like, we're going to step in and change it for you". That sets a precendent for any artist being a slave to what they think people will like, rather than the story they want to tell.

It is "their only argument". When you're right, one argument is all you need.

Actually, this exact thing has happened.  Nelson Rockefeller commissioned Diego Rivera to paint a mural in the Rockefeller Center, and when his painting “Man at the Crossroads” depicted Lenin (among other things Rockefeller didn't like), he was asked to paint over it.  Rivera refused, and so it was destroyed.  Was this wrong?  Well, personally I think so, though he did complete a second version in Mexico City, but Rockefeller was within his legal rights to do it because Diego Rivera had already been paid for the work.  Obviously, the situation with Mass Effect 3 is different because it wasn't commissioned, but artists can be asked to change their work to the point of even losing their original intent, like what happened with Diego Rivera.  Art can be beautiful and meaningful, but often it's also a product or a service.  Bioware isn’t under any obligation to change the endings, but not doing so might adversely affect sales of their future games.

Modifié par Spinel_, 16 mars 2012 - 11:41 .

[UberNoodleX]

Picasso was paid to do many works. It is called commission.
To say that art and product cannot mix is stupid.

[Kanner]

"A hundred artists, musicians, and writers work for two years on something and the result somehow isn't art?" - (I think Jerry of Penny Arcade said this)

Seriously, I hate this. Mass Effect 3 is art. It's BAD art, but it's art.

[Cadence of the Planes]

Art is whatever yo-- whoops let me change my case to match yours --- ART IS WHATEVER YOU WANT IT TO BE. I DO THINK ME3 IS ART, GOOD SIR.

[Gatt9]

The Razman wrote...

Phaize30 wrote...

i think the OP is simply saying that the entire argument against the demand a better ending movement is that it is art.. that is their only argument...

Yes.

And they're right.

Whatever your feelings about it being a product, it's still an artistic product. And you can't go about demanding artists change their products to suit you. You can't go about saying "We want you to create your product as an artist, but as soon as you do something we don't like, we're going to step in and change it for you". That sets a precendent for any artist being a slave to what they think people will like, rather than the story they want to tell.

It is "their only argument". When you're right, one argument is all you need.

Your first mistake was assuming that they are artists.  EA is a publicly traded coorporation,  it is a buisness,  not art.  This is abundantly clear by virtue of the number of "Features" implemented in ME3 in order to increase revenues,  not create a better game.

If you want further proof,  you could read the quotes from EA employees as provided by Gamespot...

http://www.gamespot....e-outed-6148369

[Cadence of the Planes]

The Razman wrote...

Phaize30 wrote...

i think the OP is simply saying that the entire argument against the demand a better ending movement is that it is art.. that is their only argument...

Yes.

And they're right.

Whatever your feelings about it being a product, it's still an artistic product. And you can't go about demanding artists change their products to suit you. You can't go about saying "We want you to create your product as an artist, but as soon as you do something we don't like, we're going to step in and change it for you". That sets a precendent for any artist being a slave to what they think people will like, rather than the story they want to tell.

It is "their only argument". When you're right, one argument is all you need.

One can speculate enormously on the motives behind a particular medium of art- but that doesn't change the fact that it is art. 

Michalangelo's Sistine Chapel painting was made for the church- and he had to have some concern about making the church happy.  That doesn't mean his painting wasn't a masterpiece.

[Sezarious]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Sezarious wrote...

greghorvath wrote...

Is there a separate forum for adults somewhere? Cause I seem to be lost in the kiddie pen where the brats are throwing tantrums...

May I make a point that when a person talks about someone like that, they are placing a judgement on them, therefore placing them above or below their own value.  I am targetting what I beleive to be a problem.  I am not targetting people personally.

And yet, it was in a condesending way with groundless claims to super-impose your perception on everyone else.

Try more tact next time.

Yeah, but I never attacked anyone personally.  There is a big difference.  When you see someone arguing about a topic, any personal attacks you make only go towards upsetting or angering them all for your own ego hit (I don't meen you specifically, I mean anyone who makes a personal attack against anyone).

People are free to argue as strongly as they want, but when you do not stick to the arguement and attack others for their intelligence or maturity, you agree to an unwritten right to also be judged in sexactly the same way.

And it's not about tact, it's about the common person arguing for the common person and HIS rights, NOT the common person defending the multi-million dollar corporation (which can handle itself perfectly fine).

[kotli]

Hahaha at title everything is art. Proof:
Unmade bed art.
Dead animals art.
Hell even a Toilet instalation is art.

^ Personnally I think the above is cant be art.
BTW even people can be art see human statue productions.

Modifié par kotli, 17 mars 2012 - 03:13 .

[EAadembroski]

I'm confused. Since when must "art" not be profitable?

[Luigitornado]

You're paying for art.