86 réponses à ce sujet

[Naturalus]

Loghain killed Alister half-brother king Cailan and you want them to be same group same time? Some things cannot be forgiven this a reason that I let Alister chop off head of Loghain and get Satisfaction about killing his bro...

Modifié par Naturalus, 29 novembre 2009 - 02:12 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

I know am being a bit lazy specially as with my current playthrough I no doubt will have Loghain in my group at the end, but does he give the speech (or obviously a slightly different one) in place of Alastair when going to reclaim Denerim?



The one thing I've found weak so far when in my 2nd runthrough I chose Anora as Queen instead of Alastair as King (but still had Alastair remain after relinquishing his heritage) is that her speech about going into battle at the Landsmeet sounds so poor in comparison to Alastairs and so am really hoping that if you spare Loghain sacrificing Alastair to either exile or execution that it is Loghain that does a speech or non at all, though it would be a shame if there is non after allowing that dozy woman to do her poor speech again at the Landsmeet when the troops will really need someone to boost their morale going into the fight.



As said, I know am being lazy asking rather than waiting, it'd just make me feel even more happy to know I can expect to see it.

[Herr Uhl]

Walina wrote...
Can you tell me please again why you like this guy ? Unless, you're retarded or love badass ?

TcheQ says he would make a better leader, not that he is a better person.

[TcheQ]

Walina wrote...

Can you tell me please again why you like this guy ? Unless, you're retarded or love badass ?

Loghain did what he thought was right.  He did it for the good of Ferelden, as he feared an incursion or Orlais.  He was paranoid that once those four legions of chevaliers had helped end the blight, Orlais would take advantage of that and announce an attack on Ferelden.  He made some bad decisions, but his intentions were good.  He cares so much for his country and his troops.  He has led armies across Ferelden. His devotion is wholly admirable.

Loghain simply didn't understand the importance a Grey Warden carries.  If you actually had chosen him, you get to talk to him about this and you would understand his motivations and the reasons he did what he did.

Besides, most of what happens in the Landsmeet chamber is known as "politics".

Riordan chooses him above Alistair.  Do you have no respect for Riordan?

PS lol@ "retarded" comment.  Enchantment?

[asaiasai]

TcheQ wrote...

Walina wrote...

Can you tell me please again why you like this guy ? Unless, you're retarded or love badass ?

Loghain did what he thought was right.  He did it for the good of Ferelden, as he feared an incursion or Orlais.  He was paranoid that once those four legions of chevaliers had helped end the blight, Orlais would take advantage of that and announce an attack on Ferelden.  He made some bad decisions, but his intentions were good.  He cares so much for his country and his troops.  He has led armies across Ferelden. His devotion is wholly admirable.

Loghain simply didn't understand the importance a Grey Warden carries.  If you actually had chosen him, you get to talk to him about this and you would understand his motivations and the reasons he did what he did.

Besides, most of what happens in the Landsmeet chamber is known as "politics".

Riordan chooses him above Alistair.  Do you have no respect for Riordan?

PS lol@ "retarded" comment.  Enchantment?

That was alot of my point in my previous post the grey wardens are a victim of thier own secrecy, had Loghain been truly informed at Ostragar the reason the Wardens are necessary to end the blight do you honestly think he would have let them die? I doubt that Loghain with full disclosure would have been that callous, even in the landsmeet he still insisted that the wardens were un necessary, if you and Allister as wardens were not aware of your role in ending the blight how can one expect Loghain, an outsider to the order, to know as well. Loghain made some bad choices, no doubt there, but he made the choices he made with less than FULL disclosure of the relevant facts, and that blame squarely falls on Duncan's shoulders. My point is that with all you went through with Allister, romance or other wise, with the fact that Allister was the by seniority the true leader of the Feraldin grey wardens, for him to have the hissy fit if you opted to defer to the senior grey warden Riordan, was un called for and only shows how much Allister needed to grow up. One would have hoped that the tempering process of the events leading up to the landsmeet should have matured Allister to accept both Riordan's and your judgment. Allister had no desire to lead, he was ok in the follower role, and now when the adults are having a serious discussion like a pouty teenager he has a tantrum and storms off slamming the door to his room. I am not justifying what Loghain did, but i can not disregard the total lack of maturity showed by Allister as well, mistakes were made, but the time has come for everyone else around you to grow up and accept that there are issues bigger than who killed who, like the blight.

I know full and well why the developers created this little mini drama it is because if you had the PC, allister and Loghain in the same party storming the castle, it would be to easy. I have used Loghain and Allister (separatly of course) in my 4 complete play throughs now and Loghain is twice the warrior Allister is, the archdemon would not stand a chance with that kind of skill looking for it. The developers created this drama to add spice to the decision process, to i think test you the player, this is (hate to use a star trek analogy here) your Kobiashi Maru, the no win situation. No matter how diplomatic or blood thirsty you played the game, in the end you had to choose, go over the top with one of the strongest warriors in the game or satisfy a friends thirst for vengenance, there is no correct answer to this situation only a personal choice and a lose lose. I tried to be true to the origin of the character i played, so as a city elf Loghain died, as a noble Loghain died, but as a mage Loghain did nothing to me except toss a few road blocks in my way, so up the hill we went. As for attachment to Duncan as a city elf i owed him for saving me from a dirty dungeon. As a noble he forced me into the grey wardens in exchange for my life. As a mage Irvin bears total responsibility for my becomming a grey warden. With these different backgrounds the strength of my desire for Loghains head on a pike was tempered by his involvement in my becoming a grey warden, like for the Dalish origin (which i have not finished yet) Loghain bears no responsibility for my becomming a grey warden so will probably go up the hill with me in the end.

What i find really fantastic about this game is the moral ambiguity, skillfully presented, where you the player feel compelled to defend your positions on the choices you made, in game and in forum. The very fact that these choices were even offered and the bearing the choices had on the outcome of the game, was ****ing stellar. The ability of the folks who made this game to draw you into the realm, where you felt compassion, understanding, the uncertantity of your choices, the ability to make you love your character, evoking powerful emotional responses to the game and the real world is something to be proud of. I am on playthrough number 5 and while i know what is comming now, know a few shortcuts, i still feel with the creation of each new character a sence of wonderment as this character can be anything i want it to be. The community i hope will contunue to enrich this experience by though provoking debate about the ambiguity, so far i am not dissappointed.

Thanks everyone
Asai

[Lotion Soronarr]

utter....utter...bull****.



Calling Allistairs "fit" childish and irresponsible, when letting Loghian live is as irresponsible as hell.

While Allistair is largely guided by emotions here (as he should given the situation), he is also right.



Loghain is a dangerous man with supporters that cannot be trusted not to stab you in the back at the last minute. He's a political and practical liability. No sane man would let him live. Especially not after all he did. Regardless of his knowledge or desires, he did betray, murder and torture on a massive scale.

[Walina]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

utter....utter...bull****.

Calling Allistairs "fit" childish and irresponsible, when letting Loghian live is as irresponsible as hell.
While Allistair is largely guided by emotions here (as he should given the situation), he is also right.

Loghain is a dangerous man with supporters that cannot be trusted not to stab you in the back at the last minute. He's a political and practical liability. No sane man would let him live. Especially not after all he did. Regardless of his knowledge or desires, he did betray, murder and torture on a massive scale.

+10

[Auraad]

Lyansidde wrote...

Loghain, whether mad or not, seemed to be totally devoted to his country. And while misguided in his attempts to save it, he once defeated was equally devoted to the defeat of the darkspawn and loyal to his new allies. Alistair, on the other hand, let his emotions run away with him and sought vengeance when that was quite obviously not in the best interests of the country. Revenge, even just retribution, may be satisfying, but not when its impact is negative on the far more dangerous situation. In a word, I liked Alistair and was not fond of Anora, but she was far more capable to be Queen then he was, and her father more of an asset. Of course this opinion is probably the result of having lived long enough to see shades of grey and to know that perfect justice is not always expedient.

So, the cause always justifies the actions?
If you think two steps ahead you'll notice that no nation could work upon this ethics. There must be some rules that must be followed by everyone, even kings. And Loghain did far more than just deserting at Ostagar...

[Emryc]

There are no 'wrong' choices in this regard.



During my first playthrough I could not allow Loghain to live. Even though all people in the Alienage hated my female Elf (for making the deal with Vaughn, which I thought was the best solution, and having Soris incarcerated), I could not let the slavery go unpunished. Same reason why all the Tevinter bastards had to die.



Loghain tried to stop you at every turn. He indirectly killed the man whom he sworn loyalty to, he destroyed pretty much all of the Wardens, he framed the Wardens and destroyed so many other things in his mad quest.



If he had shown some guilt before the duel, things might have been different. After he's bested in the duel he's just a broken man who tries to save his own skin.



Off with his head.



At this point there are still three Grey Wardens who can destroy the Archdemon. One volunteered, another one volunteered as well and the last one (me) was perfectly willing to let Riordan or Alistair take the glory.



But Loghain? Never.

[Crunchyinmilk]

Killing Loghain at the Landsmeet is the wrong decision. He's been cowled in front of the people he needed to rise to power. Even if he's a future risk, right now he's a resource. Why not send him against the darkspawn like the dwarves do their criminals, rather than nurse a fetish for personal revenge (yours or Alistairs).

Keeping him leashed seems an excellent bargaining chip in your relationship with Anora too, especially if you chose the marriage of convenience option (noble origin).

There's a lot of off the cuff hate in this thread directed at Anora, which I don't understand. Personally I loved her (is there a thread here somewhere that discusses her?).

She's smart, cunning and ambitious with the talent to make things happen. I see people getting upset by her comments during her rescue but understood and applauded them all. I especially appreciated her frank understanding of Alistair.

Why would she want to marry and rule under him unless forced to? She was just married to his brother, who looks and acts just like him. Until Aemon finally croaks (and probably long after) she would be at a disadvantage even if she could manipulate Alistair, like Cailin before him. Never to rule in her own right.

I was happy to come to an arrangement with her with a male noble character. Securing mine and the Warden's interests in a more direct manner as royal consort, rather than relying on her alone or on Alistair who was as like to dance to Aemon's tune than anyone else.

Alistair's storming away when I made the right decision only confirmed how bad a king he would make and how far he had to grow up to become anything like the man he idolised.

Modifié par Crunchyinmilk, 30 novembre 2009 - 02:55 .

[PuffyTail]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

I know am being a bit lazy specially as with my current playthrough I no doubt will have Loghain in my group at the end, but does he give the speech (or obviously a slightly different one) in place of Alastair when going to reclaim Denerim?

The one thing I've found weak so far when in my 2nd runthrough I chose Anora as Queen instead of Alastair as King (but still had Alastair remain after relinquishing his heritage) is that her speech about going into battle at the Landsmeet sounds so poor in comparison to Alastairs and so am really hoping that if you spare Loghain sacrificing Alastair to either exile or execution that it is Loghain that does a speech or non at all, though it would be a shame if there is non after allowing that dozy woman to do her poor speech again at the Landsmeet when the troops will really need someone to boost their morale going into the fight.

As said, I know am being lazy asking rather than waiting, it'd just make me feel even more happy to know I can expect to see it.

It's Anora that gives almost exactly the same speech that Alistair would give at that part (she's even wearing a set of armor).

Not really weak at all, unless you think a girl giving the speech makes it so.

[Valmy]

Can you tell me please again why you like this guy ? Unless, you're retarded or love badass ?

While he clearly did some good things in his past yeah he is sorta beyond the pale now.



However I couldn't just kill him on my human noble. You don't just execute a noble without a trial where he can at least speak in his own defense...but there is nothing wrong with conscripting him into the Wardens and sending him to die even if Alistair disagreed. Fortunately I found out a bit later that one of us had to die and I am glad it was him instead of one of the two of us.



Naturally my other characters who couldn't care less about the rights of Feredlen nobility will take their victors justice eagerly...then I will have to decide what to do about the whole somebody has to die or Morrigan gets her way thing.

[Zem_]

Duncan would have recruited Loghain.

This is the thing I really found compelling about the Wardens.  The premise is that they are not merely fighting an invading enemy who will simply take over the country as did the Orlesians.  The Darkspawn are there to wipe out everything that isn't them and the first Wardens were a desperate response to imminent extinction.  So they'll do anything and work with anybody if it means the survival of the species.  You don't have to have read the novels to know this about Duncan either.  Just watch him murder Ser Jory to protect their dark little secret.  Or play the two dwarf origins.  Whether or not you are a thug and murderer or convicted (rightly or wrongly) of conspiring to kill your brother and heir to the throne... no problem.  Looks like you can handle a blade.  Welcome aboard.  I also found it particularly cold of him in the human noble intro to extract a promise from your father (who is busy bleeding out on the floor) that you'll join the wardens in exchange for his help saving your life.  

Yeah, he'd have poured Loghain a nice tall glass of Darkspawn blood and then told Alistair to stop his whining about it.  There's a Blight to stop.

[simonc4175]

On my second play though I recruited Logain and he sacrificed himlself to kill the arch-demon.



He gives a nice achievment Second chances are fun heh.

[Heldenbrand]

Because we know in the end that you can win either way. In the moment I would have chosen the companion that gave me the greatest chance at defeating the Blight. Love him or hate him, Loghain was a military leader and had power not corrupted him to the degree it had, he would have been remembered a hero. If choosing to spare Loghain gave me even a slightly improved chance to save the nation, it's a necessary evil - especially if you were smart enough to let him deal the final blow to the Archdemon. Give him a final chance at redemption and to preserve his name in the annals of history.



Allistar on the other hand, if he's not properly groomed througout the game, would be willing to let his personal feelings (justifiable or not) completely override his mission to stop the Blight. Duncan was willing to kill an innocent man to preserve the mission of the Grey Warden and I have no doubt he would have taken Loghain if it had been Allistar who had died at Ostagar.



Priority number one at that point would be to stop the Blight, settle all accounts afterward. Allistar could not do this and thus risks all of the nation for a personal vendetta.

[CJohnJones]

Maybe it would be different if Grey Warden number three, Riordan, would pull someone off to the side and explain the bit about a Warden dying when things heat up at the Landsmeet. I guess he thought that it just wasn't the right time to, you know, go over and whisper to Alistair that Loghain could be useful and would still get whacked.

[Tale Dakari]

I think the best thing is to get Alistair to marry Anora.



STILL, I wish I could slap some sense into Alistair for having that retard fit when Riordan proposes to make Loghain a Gray Warden. I mean, I don't trust Loghain either, but Alistair said some really childish things.

[Zalbaar]

I was not the biggest fan of Alistair not marrying my character on my first play through. So the other night I went back through from a different save point and sided with the Loghain got the achievment played throuh to then end and made him kill the archdemon and became the hero. Actually it made me feel better to lose Allistair after he broke up with me the first play through and then would not do the ritual with Morrigan so I could live.

[Realmzmaster]

Loghain not only killed a large part of the army by not following through on his own plan, but also attempted to kill Arl Eamon and probably had Howe betray the ruler of Highever. I would not trust the man as far as I could toss him. With any good army or group, you have to have trust. Personal feelings aside, do you really want someone in your group you cannot trust.

[Fishy]

I simply don't understand why you would choose Loghain .
He killed all of your brothers(all the warden of Ferelden) .. He tryed to kill you during all the game ..
 Just think about it .. If your character had loose the duel .. Would you think he would have sparen your life?


He accussed you the whole game  .. He killed the king .. He betrayed Ferelden and you at the same time.
Even with a Evil character .. Sweeping all of this like nothing that just plain stupid.

Sure Allistair he's a bit annoying but for once he's true.
It's like playing a Dwarf Noble and making Bhelen the King .. Although i think i should do it.

[Saurel]

I take it you can't have Alistair as king and spare lOGHAIN?

[Kolaris8472]

Its not about "choosing" Loghain, its about accepting everyone useful and needed in order to fight the Blight.



4 Grey Wardens > 3 Grey Wardens...then Alistair goes and makes a choice out of it.

[Saurel]

I'm stalemating the decision. Does Alistair know someone might have to die to the ArchDemon?



And even then he doesn't want Loghain?

[th3warr1or]

Forumtroll wrote...

You'd be surprised how often that happens in the Grey Wardens. Look at how Duncan got recruited. He killed thhe fiancee of the Commander of Grey Wardens in Feralden, for his engagement ring I might add.

Are you serious?