278 réponses à ce sujet

[Privatr16]

The Free Jaffa wrote...

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

Privatr16 wrote...

I support the hallucination theory/maybe a coma theory not the indoctrination one. I also support the retcon and rewrite option or just something that give closure and makes sense. If Shepard was indoctrinated it would just ruin it worst than it already is.

How so? it perfectly fits in with the lore.

It fits so very perfectly in with the lore.  The fact that Shepard hadn't felt the affects of indoctrination before was pretty strange, honestly.  Including her whole crew.  It's also possible Reaper tech was used to help revive her, which could have made her more easy to indoctrinate.  Remember, Benezia was indoctrinated, and she had a much stronger will than Shepard (or it is atleast implied).  The idea is that Shepard is indoctrinated in two of the three endings.  One ending she is not, and has the chance to survive the hit from the beam.

If it was so simple to initiate the indoctrination on weak willed Shepard that you have a 67% chance of making him a puppet then it isn't the same Shepard I played in one and two. Back to the why would the reapers waste their time and not take this route before they started losing their lives to Shepard and his crusade?

[ArkkAngel007]

Warhawk7137 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

Makatak wrote...


Instead, we're confronted with, "THE ENDING MUST BE INDOCTRINATION. THERE'S NO OTHER WAY TO EXPLAIN THESE THINGS. LOOK AT WHAT I FOUND. IS BIOWARE NOT LAZY?! HEADCANNON."

Strawman, the vast majority of debate over the IT is nothing like youre trying to make us to be. We just see something that fixes many pieces of the puzzle and actually makes alot of sense, no one is claiming absolute truth and bashing people who disagree with anti-IT...

Actually, there are quite a few people who are running around carrying the theory in that manner.  Maybe in not quite an absurd manner, but the point is there.

But these types of threads, from both sides, are starting to really show the absolute worst of this community.

And there are quite a few people whose every post on the subject involves some use of the term "conspiracy theory" and references to 9/11.

Which I addressed.  I support the IT.  What the IT people are doing is pretty tame compared to what the rage hardliners have thrown at them.  

However, each "side" is now just reduced to baiting eachother.  While I recognize what Mak was doing, it really wasn't the best posting decision.  No offence.

[Juniper Mucius]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Seriously though, indoc theory or not, lets just all agree we want a BETTER ending. That's all i care about in the end, and hopfully thats what everyone wants and not being able to say" See we were right all along the indoc is true har har dumbasses" or "See we told you the indoc was false, you stupid bastards HAR HAR"  

From the person who just called someone a delusional tool for believing in indoc theory...

Right...

yes that's my opinion. I am allowed to have one. What's your point? 

I thought you were done with this thread? 

Modifié par The Free Jaffa, 16 mars 2012 - 08:29 .

[rockman0]

MassEffected555 wrote...

rockman0 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

MassEffected555 you are the one grabbing.at straws....you say we have no evidence that's explained but we have Shep waking up and the fact he's breathing in outerspace....the voice on the radio even says "nobody made it" to the conduit....your evidence is the citadels atmosphere is still up....when does it say that? wheres your evidence? You have none. Zero. That's grasping at straws if I've ever seen it. Not that it matters if.the atmosphere is up or down, due to the fact he's on the exterior of the station

NO ONE DID MAKE IT YET AT THE POINT YOU TOOL. Shep was on the floor NOT INSIDE THE BEAM. THE chatter was right, did anyone make it to the beam yet? NO NO ONE HAD .... YETTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT. 

Also since Shep was breathing with no helmet I am pretty sure there was atmoshphere, and all you are going to say is ... "but he was never on the citadel because I want to believe so badly my indoc theory is true" 

Jesus you are a tool. I am never coming back to this thread again. Done here. I think I am done with the movement too, I can't be assoiciated with delusional people I'm sorry. 

Wow...just wow. Some people are subtle with their insults, but you really just threw it out there for the world to see, huh?

I can't respond because I said I was done with this thread. But if I were to come back to make a response I would say.

Yes, yes I did. Because it's completely assanine. IMO! I am not telling anyone NOT to believe it, I am just saying why I don't and I honestly feel like people are being delusional - IN MY OPINION. 

Seriously though, indoc theory or not, lets just all agree we want a BETTER ending. That's all i care about in the end, and hopfully thats what everyone wants and not being able to say" See we were right all along the indoc is true har har dumbasses" or "See we told you the indoc was false, you stupid bastards HAR HAR"  

It's still not cool. When people use words like that, it's meant as a way to harm others. If you have an opinion about someone that could hurt that person, it's usually best to keep it to yourself. In other words, calling people "delusional tools" because they disagreed with you was unnecessary. 

[Jaze55]

The Free Jaffa wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Seriously though, indoc theory or not, lets just all agree we want a BETTER ending. That's all i care about in the end, and hopfully thats what everyone wants and not being able to say" See we were right all along the indoc is true har har dumbasses" or "See we told you the indoc was false, you stupid bastards HAR HAR"  

From the person who just called someone a delusional tool for believing in indoc theory...

Right...

yes that's my opinion. I am allowed to have one. What's your point? 

I thought you were done with this thread? 

See when I wrote I was done with this thread I was just dreaming. I have a reaper ferret as a pet and he must have indoctrinated me. When I woke up on the floor in my bathroom I must have defeated the indoc attempt so I came back to this thread ............

[Kanon777]

Rocktel wrote...

Final Hours of Mass Effect proved that indoctrination theory was bollocks.

Jesica Merrizan statd that the IOS app does not deny (or confirm -.-) the Indocrination Theory. (in fact the IOS said the devs wanted to have a scene where sheppard would get controled by a reaper, but they didnt hate ftime to add it)

[Kanon777]

MassEffected555 wrote...

See when I wrote I was done with this thread I was just dreaming. I have a reaper ferret as a pet and he must have indoctrinated me. When I woke up on the floor in my bathroom I must have defeated the indoc attempt so I came back to this thread ............

Stop the strawman <_<

[Jaze55]

rockman0 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

rockman0 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

MassEffected555 you are the one grabbing.at straws....you say we have no evidence that's explained but we have Shep waking up and the fact he's breathing in outerspace....the voice on the radio even says "nobody made it" to the conduit....your evidence is the citadels atmosphere is still up....when does it say that? wheres your evidence? You have none. Zero. That's grasping at straws if I've ever seen it. Not that it matters if.the atmosphere is up or down, due to the fact he's on the exterior of the station

NO ONE DID MAKE IT YET AT THE POINT YOU TOOL. Shep was on the floor NOT INSIDE THE BEAM. THE chatter was right, did anyone make it to the beam yet? NO NO ONE HAD .... YETTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT. 

Also since Shep was breathing with no helmet I am pretty sure there was atmoshphere, and all you are going to say is ... "but he was never on the citadel because I want to believe so badly my indoc theory is true" 

Jesus you are a tool. I am never coming back to this thread again. Done here. I think I am done with the movement too, I can't be assoiciated with delusional people I'm sorry. 

Wow...just wow. Some people are subtle with their insults, but you really just threw it out there for the world to see, huh?

I can't respond because I said I was done with this thread. But if I were to come back to make a response I would say.

Yes, yes I did. Because it's completely assanine. IMO! I am not telling anyone NOT to believe it, I am just saying why I don't and I honestly feel like people are being delusional - IN MY OPINION. 

Seriously though, indoc theory or not, lets just all agree we want a BETTER ending. That's all i care about in the end, and hopfully thats what everyone wants and not being able to say" See we were right all along the indoc is true har har dumbasses" or "See we told you the indoc was false, you stupid bastards HAR HAR"  

It's still not cool. When people use words like that, it's meant as a way to harm others. If you have an opinion about someone that could hurt that person, it's usually best to keep it to yourself. In other words, calling people "delusional tools" because they disagreed with you was unnecessary. 

Do me a favor, go back and read McFlys response saying **** when over my head. That is insultining and once again, IN MY OPINION I think you are being delusional tools. Your opinion was valid about hurting someone, but thats your OPINION and I don't think it should hurt someone. Call me whatever you want as an random internet poster I wont be offended, so your opinion is invalid to me since I dont believe it should hurt someone. Opinions are NOT fact. Just ignore my OPINION if you disagree, it isnt hard. 

[Juniper Mucius]

Privatr16 wrote...

The Free Jaffa wrote...

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

Privatr16 wrote...

I support the hallucination theory/maybe a coma theory not the indoctrination one. I also support the retcon and rewrite option or just something that give closure and makes sense. If Shepard was indoctrinated it would just ruin it worst than it already is.

How so? it perfectly fits in with the lore.

It fits so very perfectly in with the lore.  The fact that Shepard hadn't felt the affects of indoctrination before was pretty strange, honestly.  Including her whole crew.  It's also possible Reaper tech was used to help revive her, which could have made her more easy to indoctrinate.  Remember, Benezia was indoctrinated, and she had a much stronger will than Shepard (or it is atleast implied).  The idea is that Shepard is indoctrinated in two of the three endings.  One ending she is not, and has the chance to survive the hit from the beam.

If it was so simple to initiate the indoctrination on weak willed Shepard that you have a 67% chance of making him a puppet then it isn't the same Shepard I played in one and two. Back to the why would the reapers waste their time and not take this route before they started losing their lives to Shepard and his crusade?

Shepard is still strong willed.  That doesn't mean she can't be indoctrinated.  The first Shepard wasn't around Sovereign all the time, but remember, people on Eden Prime that were just near the ship started feeling the indoctrination effects (the colonists inside one of the housing units before finding Nihlus).  Since then, she's been around much more Reaper tech.

I don't get where you are suggesting Shepard is "weak willed".  Shepard is very strong, but even Benezia fell for Sovereign's indoctrination.  And as the Indoctrination Theory goes, you're being indoctrinated slowly (possibly because you're not around it) by Harbinger.  Then, at the end, you're much closer to Harbinger.  Thus, indoctrination becomes much more simple for it to do on Shepard.  This doesn't, at all, suggest that Shepard is weak willed.  In fact, Shepard having the chance to escape indoctrination would suggest the very opposite of it.

Not sure why that isn't clear to people.

[Deflagratio]

I feel the "True Ending" is proof enough that the Indoctrination theory is the most plausible ending. There is Absolutely No other explanation for the ending with Shepard buried in stone rubble identical to what was encountered in London.

That alone is enough to convince me, but then some of the Circumstantial evidence backs it up. You can see Harbingers Eyes illuminated as though he were attempting to Assume direct control, the manipulation of our notion of Paragon/Renegade, the Infinite Ammo Carnifex, the Keepers you can't shoot, "Everyone is wiped out" yet the Admiral of the Alliance fails to report in on his obviously functioning communicator and finally, the Buzzing, static and ghostly Voices you hear immediately after regaining consciousness and making the final, staggered walk to the Conduit. Yeah, those noises were conspicuously absent before the laser part, and all are mentioned in the codex under the symptoms of indoctrination.

That still doesn't really excuse the endings lack of closure, or the awkward Normandy scene. But that's another matter entirely, with already far too many 10Page+ Threads on it.

[Kanon777]

User 7: "Its not that the ending was taken in the wrong direction its that it makes NO SENSE. Ashley was on the Normandy? she [was] with me."
@masseffect: "Probably a good thing to be cautious of."

Clearly the dev is confirming that there is something wrong with the ending here (i doubt they would admit it and joke about if it was just bad writting)

Modifié par tobito113, 16 mars 2012 - 08:36 .

[Makatak]

Kujap wrote...

I hate to say it, but It astounds me that the majority of this board believe shepard surviving the citadel explosion, and watching companions they saw on earth hop out of the normandy, more believable than an indoctrination attempt on the player. People can't come to terms with having been tricked by harbinger, when really they should be impressed. I feel really bad for people still believing the hilarious 3 ending cinematics are real.

---- BUT ---- EVERYONE is rightfully pissed at the lack of a definitive conclusion, in either theory, and thats where we should continue to come together on. I can guarantee you no right-minded person is happy with any form/theory/interpretation of the ending, in terms of its final conclusion to the series. But it still baffles me how well people got indoctrinated, myself included.

I agree(ish), though not with feeling bad for people or feeling baffled for any reason. I understand the situation entirely. There are currently two major camps, both who agree that the endings are bad (as written).

One camp suggests that everything shown in the ending can and did happen, with intention, because of the Bioware writers. These attempt to fill plot holes with headcanon, the most popular being the Indoctrination Theory, which took over from the "Refusal" idea last week.

The other camp suggests that perhaps some of the clips shown were just bad writing, and as such, can and should be ignored, or will perhaps be retconned in the future. These people do not want a fan-written alternative, likely because the fans are not Bioware nor can the fans represent them.

[Capeo]

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

MassEffected555 you are the one grabbing.at straws....you say we have no evidence that's explained but we have Shep waking up and the fact he's breathing in outerspace....the voice on the radio even says "nobody made it" to the conduit....your evidence is the citadels atmosphere is still up....when does it say that? wheres your evidence? You have none. Zero. That's grasping at straws if I've ever seen it. Not that it matters if.the atmosphere is up or down, due to the fact he's on the exterior of the station

What are you talking about?  The Citadel always has atmosphere.  Where do you keep getting this "in space" crap?  The Citadel is full of mass effect generators that keep the atmosphere.  Shep is never in space in the ending. 

Then explain why we had to put on our helmets in ME1 to get to the council chambers?

Only the wards have Atmosphere and only up to 7 metres, its in the codex itself.

And?  It also says buildings taller than that are sealed to retain atmosphere.  We are clearly in an interior at the end of ME3 and clearly not in space.  If you honestly think BW meant for you to be walking around in space at the end then you are delusional.

[Deltateam Elcor]

Seriously, enough of the illogical arguments.

Anyone debating with strawmen should be ignored.

[Juniper Mucius]

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

Seriously, enough of the illogical arguments.

Anyone debating with strawmen should be ignored.

What about gingerbread men?

[Makatak]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

However, each "side" is now just reduced to baiting eachother.  While I recognize what Mak was doing, it really wasn't the best posting decision.  No offence.

None taken. In the end, we all hate the endings. We just express it differently. 

[Dr_Hello]

Makatak wrote...

 Screw it. If you're going to populate these forums with crackpot theories using minimal context-less evidence to support your own headcannon fanfiction of an ending, I have a single question for you.

Why stop at just the ending of ME3?

Think about it. If we're going to suggest that Shepard was ever Indoctrinated, then let's start looking at the evidence from back in ME1. Why does Shepard keep running across people saying, "Look at me, I'm Indoctrinated! This is how Indoctrinated people act!" and then he gets funneled into situations where people constantly tell him/her that s/he's not Indoctrinated (like Vigil)? If I was a supreme sentient race of machines, I would absolutely want to convince a protagonist with all-powers that what they were doing was righteous, and that no, of course they weren't indoctrinated. Of course they weren't playing right in to my hands. I'd reinforce the idea that they were the only sane person in the galaxy. I'd constantly put dumb, blathering, drooling people in front of them and say, "You're not this." But look at the truly indoctrinated -- they had no idea. And why trust Vigil? Vigil could lie. Vigil could've been left behind by Saren and the Reapers just to tell Shepard, "Of course you're Indoctrinated!"

Look at Arthas becoming the Lich King. He just wanted to save his people. Is Shepard not the same way? "I just want to destroy the Reapers" he says, "I just want to save the humans. Save the galaxy!"

The truth is that Shepard was Indoctrinated from the moment s/he saw Sovereign on Eden Prime. That's right. And that's what the Reapers had planned all along. What do you think Anderson, Udina, and Hackett before the beginning of ME1 were really saying? They knew something was going on. They chose someone as a sacrifice to the Reapers. "It could only be Shepard" they said. That was their only choice. Their only choice for what? To give to the Reapers to be Indoctrinated. You spend 3 games serving the Reapers, preparing for your ascention, believing the entire time that you're not Indoctrinated.

And so, like a plucky hero, your Shepard goes about their merry, listening to everyone who has something to say, believing the entire time that you're not Indoctrinated because everyone and everything continuously tells you so. But why does everyone have to keep telling you this? Shepard should know, right? They should believe, right? Why doesn't Shepard ever wonder, y'know? Insane people don't know they're insane; it's the same with Indoctrinated...and look at Rana Thoptis, who talked like a normal person up until she blew herself up with a bomb.

So you see? I can find scant evidence anywhere, too. I can make up nonsensical stories about how this was all x or y, because look at all the evidence that supports it!

If the endings aren't indoctrination results, then we can all agree that the endings' writing is terribly flawed and is inadequate, which would be even more surprising and alarming especially given the excellent writing job BioWare has done thus far with the ME trilogy.

Such inconsistency in writing quality would be unheard of to me.

It's one thing to try to make an ending which allows for personal interpretation (which can work great if, of course, done well), it's another to make an ending which leaves everything loose and lacks resolution especially when dealing with character-driven but also multi-character story.

[SimonM72]

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

MassEffected555 you are the one grabbing.at straws....you say we have no evidence that's explained but we have Shep waking up and the fact he's breathing in outerspace....the voice on the radio even says "nobody made it" to the conduit....your evidence is the citadels atmosphere is still up....when does it say that? wheres your evidence? You have none. Zero. That's grasping at straws if I've ever seen it. Not that it matters if.the atmosphere is up or down, due to the fact he's on the exterior of the station

What are you talking about?  The Citadel always has atmosphere.  Where do you keep getting this "in space" crap?  The Citadel is full of mass effect generators that keep the atmosphere.  Shep is never in space in the ending. 

Then explain why we had to put on our helmets in ME1 to get to the council chambers?

Only the wards have Atmosphere and only up to 7 metres, its in the codex itself.

I don't understand why people are trying to argue detail and logic in a dream sequence.

Last night I had a dream that I was crossing a field in the English countryside and it occured to me; "oh look!, there goes one of those helicopters!" as it flew past.  To clarify the point in question, the helicopter was a double bed with a black iron frame, white linen sheets, a propeller prop and blades that stemmed from the centre of the bed and it flew not conventionally as you'd imagine a helicopter would, but dropped a 100ft out of the sky before bouncing back up high on its giant springs attached to either bed foot.  In huge leaps this thing boinged across the countryside.

Did I think; "wtf is that?" - no!,  I barely batted an eyelid and just thought; "oh look!, there goes one of those helicopters!".

Go figure, the unconscious mind does weird things and you are not 100% in control of the detail or even logic around you. Donations for therapy gratefully received. (lol).

[Deltateam Elcor]

Capeo wrote...

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

MassEffected555 you are the one grabbing.at straws....you say we have no evidence that's explained but we have Shep waking up and the fact he's breathing in outerspace....the voice on the radio even says "nobody made it" to the conduit....your evidence is the citadels atmosphere is still up....when does it say that? wheres your evidence? You have none. Zero. That's grasping at straws if I've ever seen it. Not that it matters if.the atmosphere is up or down, due to the fact he's on the exterior of the station

What are you talking about?  The Citadel always has atmosphere.  Where do you keep getting this "in space" crap?  The Citadel is full of mass effect generators that keep the atmosphere.  Shep is never in space in the ending. 

Then explain why we had to put on our helmets in ME1 to get to the council chambers?

Only the wards have Atmosphere and only up to 7 metres, its in the codex itself.

And?  It also says buildings taller than that are sealed to retain atmosphere.  We are clearly in an interior at the end of ME3 and clearly not in space.  If you honestly think BW meant for you to be walking around in space at the end then you are delusional.

I only meant the very end, the part with the rather large and powerful laser beam is shooting right into the citadel, if there was a roof there, then i must have missed it.

[savionen]

Capeo wrote...

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

MassEffected555 you are the one grabbing.at straws....you say we have no evidence that's explained but we have Shep waking up and the fact he's breathing in outerspace....the voice on the radio even says "nobody made it" to the conduit....your evidence is the citadels atmosphere is still up....when does it say that? wheres your evidence? You have none. Zero. That's grasping at straws if I've ever seen it. Not that it matters if.the atmosphere is up or down, due to the fact he's on the exterior of the station

What are you talking about?  The Citadel always has atmosphere.  Where do you keep getting this "in space" crap?  The Citadel is full of mass effect generators that keep the atmosphere.  Shep is never in space in the ending. 

Then explain why we had to put on our helmets in ME1 to get to the council chambers?

Only the wards have Atmosphere and only up to 7 metres, its in the codex itself.

And?  It also says buildings taller than that are sealed to retain atmosphere.  We are clearly in an interior at the end of ME3 and clearly not in space.  If you honestly think BW meant for you to be walking around in space at the end then you are delusional.

If it werent for the Crucible directly above Shepard, there'd be nothing above you but space. You're on the outside of the Citadel, it can't get much more outside.

[SUBTERRANEANguy]

It's like, if you're not on board with the indoctrination theory, then you are not a true fan of the series. That's what these people who can't take a visceral and gritty ending want to force upon us- THEIR brand of indoctrination. As I said before, there are obviously plot holes in the endings which will be filled by the inevitable dlc. The indoctrination theory is complete tosh anyway- with films such as Fight Club and The Sixth Sense doing distorted perceived realities years ago. At least with the endings the writers gave us has opened up a metaphysical debate whether these people realize it or not. I feel sorry for them. I have a wife, kids, and the mass effect trilogy was great, but not life changing. These people do realize that they never actually had TRUE free-will choices anyway, as they were playing a pre- programmed computer code? Most of the so- called "choices" we had as gamers never even considered that "Grey area" which is intrinsic to slot of human moral judgements. Great entertainment, though!

[Apollo-XL5]

why does everyone believe that bioware created a perfect game story so intricately tied together only to completely balls up at the end rather than believe that they made the most thoughtful, interesting and powerful climax/cliffhanger ending to a trilogy of a hero who is just as corruptable as anyone else, why because he is human. Plus they have said that there is alot of story dlc on the way and i am sure one is called "priority earth 3"

[Apollo-XL5]

i bet the crucible is sa reaper trojan horse designed to get the races of the galaxy hope that they can defeat the reapers when the real target is harbinger who is the oldest and most powerful one and clearly is the is the alpha (control) reaper. take him out and the reapers will fall.

[Chuvvy]

Web Access Card wrote...

I don't buy into the indoctrination theory, but I find it admirable in a tragic sort of way; it's basically an elaborate coping mechanism, and I think it's kind of ingenius.

Where fans see a desprate attempt to make the endings less horrible. Bioware sees speculation for everyone. I wonder what it's like to live in that thick of a plastic bubble?

[Juniper Mucius]

SUBTERRANEANguy wrote...

It's like, if you're not on board with the indoctrination theory, then you are not a true fan of the series. That's what these people who can't take a visceral and gritty ending want to force upon us- THEIR brand of indoctrination. As I said before, there are obviously plot holes in the endings which will be filled by the inevitable dlc. The indoctrination theory is complete tosh anyway- with films such as Fight Club and The Sixth Sense doing distorted perceived realities years ago. At least with the endings the writers gave us has opened up a metaphysical debate whether these people realize it or not. I feel sorry for them. I have a wife, kids, and the mass effect trilogy was great, but not life changing. These people do realize that they never actually had TRUE free-will choices anyway, as they were playing a pre- programmed computer code? Most of the so- called "choices" we had as gamers never even considered that "Grey area" which is intrinsic to slot of human moral judgements. Great entertainment, though!

I don't think that.  You're making a broad generalization.  It's like saying "if you're not a Republican, you're a gay anti-American commie".  That's a false, broad generalization.  As well, the ending isn't "gritty".  I can do well with a gritty and visceral ending.  What I can't do well with is an ending that makes utterly no sense at all.  None.  Whatsoever.