278 réponses à ce sujet

[Afroman12]

 In times of Choas people will try to grab hold of anything possible to make it seem normal.

[Kanon777]

Rafe34 wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

Jessica Merizan tweeted that the IOSapp in no way disproves the Indocrination Theory

LINK!

PLEASE!

Blake Cubler: just answer me this, should the "final hours" fiasco hold any merit to us? Or is all hope lost.
Jessica Merizan:  that's a cool app documenting the dev process not the actual canon story

Modifié par tobito113, 16 mars 2012 - 07:45 .

[rockman0]

Makatak wrote...

rockman0 wrote...

Mintycool wrote...

^

Non-sequitur for the win!

Also doubles as irony when you consider the fact that the person in the picture could very well be you. 

I only stepped into this conversation to point out your douchebaggery. 

We're all douchebags. We're all arguing over the internet.

It's like "The Game" (sorry for anyone who believed they were winning. You just lost.)

Simply sacrifice your high horse and enjoy the ride.

Nah. I'm not going to put myself in that category. You see, unlike others, I have no problem with people believing what they want to. I don't see the need to put others down because they disagree with me. But when I see someone bullying others online, you can be sure I'm step in. That's not cool at all.

[MintyCool]

rockman0 wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

rockman0 wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

rockman0 wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

Lethys1 wrote...

Anyone who so emphatically rejects it and claims there's no legitimate backing just lacks an understanding of the theory.  It's fine, no one can prove it's correct or false, but it certainly makes sense and has proof behind it.

Truthers 9/11, Holocaust Deniers, etc.

With your logic the above organizations are legit. Don't try to flock your feathers with your intellectual superiority unless you have an understanding with wtf you're talking about.

Speak more multi-syllable words in a random order; I enjoy it puppet.


Checkmate.

You shouldn't compare real life crackpot theories to some pass time on a video game forum. After all, those real-life events weren't "open for interpretation." Besides, what occurred in those events are a lot more serious than some video game ending that you happened to dislike.

Checkmate rescinded.

Exactly my point,

A movement requires work, and you're too lazy for that. A similar example would be people watching the Kony YouTube doc, and then lazily contribute to the cause by changing their Facebook status....

Hold the line? lol.

If you really do have this much passion, it's a shame that you're wasting your energy on a 15min pixel cutscene and not contributing to something worthwhile in your life....

Hold the line? It would seem you're not holding anything...

Check And Mate.

And you've come to that conclusion how? How can you tell what someone does in their life by what you see online? That's pretty pretentious of you. Besides, the same could be said of you. Why aren't you doing something worthwhile in your life?

Why isn't anyone crying out "Hold the line" doing anything worthwhile with their life?

Still no checkmate. Partly because we're not playing chess.

EDIT: Took your initiative and bolded some parts to make what I'm saying seem important.

Mintycool wrote...

^

Non-sequitur for the win!

Also doubles as irony when you consider the fact that the person in the picture could very well be you. 

I only stepped into this conversation to point out your douchebaggery. 

I've already proved my point in this topic; feel free to continue to talk in circles while being in complete denial.

Checkmate. 

Modifié par MintyCool, 16 mars 2012 - 07:47 .

[Warhawk7137]

Look, I have no idea whether Indoc Theory is right or wrong, or whether it was intended or not.

BUT.

It's a theory that has several dozen specific in-game things supporting it, requires no "additions" to the game to make it work, has very little that directly contradicts it, and explains some of the plot holes and logical flaws present in the literal interpretation of the ending. Whether it is eventually supported or denied by the devs is, at the moment, irrelevant. What is relevant is that, at the moment, it is an eminently plausible theory, with solid but not overwhelming support, that is more appealing in a number of ways than a literal approach.

So why the backlash? I mean, I actually understand the people who think indoc theory makes the ending worse - I don't agree, but that's a perfectly fine opinion. I DON'T understand the people who think it would make the ending better, and who think it would make more sense, but still abjectly refuse to consider it because they would prefer the endings to be as bad as humanly possible, so that their complaints can carry more weight.

Look, I think either way the endings have serious problems that need to be rectified. There's nothing wrong with indoc theory. It makes a lot of sense. Don't shape your interpretation of the endings around your criticism. Shape your criticisms around your interpretation of the endings.

Oh, and stop it with the "Checkmate" thing already, Minty.  It's like playing Halo with someone who shouts "Headshot!" every time they kill you.  It gets old about 20 or 30 times in.

Modifié par Warhawk7137, 16 mars 2012 - 07:47 .

[Makatak]

Rafe34 wrote...

Makatak wrote...

Baine10 wrote...

[...] The IT is a symbol of hope and good faith, in that Bioware has not completely betrayed every single soul that invested in this franchise and commander shepard, who were only looking for face-value closure.

It's not betrayal, it's just a let-down. I think people are getting a little overdramatic with the idea that maybe, again, it was just bad writing. I don't think Stephanie Meyer betrayed vampire fans when she wrote Twilight. She simply wrote a bad series of books (rather, to be politically correct, she wrote a series of books that I am not a fan of...though I'm supported by several legitimate literary critics and minds that agree that her writing is, indeed, awful).

While the IT believers think that Bioware cannot fail, I instead think that Bioware believed it could not fail, and were subsequently wrong. One of these theories suggests an imperviousness that I refuse to believe exists in our real-world universe.

It IS a betrayal when you look at everything they said they were going to do, even as close to the release as January- when there was no way they changed any endings.

They told us we were going to get one thing, and gave us another. If that isn't the definition of breach of trust, I don't know what is.

Link to all the statements they made that are now completely false:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10056886/1

Welcome to the world of advertisement. What Bioware did to sell you the game is the same thing as what Axe does to sell deodorant. In one, a fictional universe is designed to get the consumer to believe they save the galaxy. In the other, a consumer is led to believe they may exist in a universe where their scent causes women to become sexually enraged to points of near-orgasmic volatility. So neither actually exist; is anyone suing Axe for false advertisement?

It wasn't a breach of trust, it was a breach of the reader-writer contract, which arguably should be rewritten for the sake of games as a storytelling medium, but that's another problem in and of itself, and the latest Forbes article on the debate suggests that every major game developer will be citing the ME3 endings as what not to do for years to come.

[Juniper Mucius]

They said they wanted to create fan speculation, right? This was said in that stupid app. So what's the problem with the indoctrination theory? If it isn't something like indoctrination or hallucination, then the ending makes absolutely no sense and is just pathetic.

The fact that you're getting your panties in a bunch over a theory about a video game, is more of a sad statement about you than those with the theories. Also, calling it a conspiracy theory is plain friggin' stupid. Is gravity a damn conspiracy theory, or a scientific theory? People have presented fair evidence as to why it could be indoctrination, backing up the experience of the end with the experience of indoctrination presented in the game's Codex.

They aren't saying, "BioWare is conspiring against us". They are saying, "hey, I think this is what BioWare is doing, and here is the evidence that makes it a theory." This is far different from 9/11 conspiracy theories, that state that 9/11 was an "inside job" with no real evidence to back it up. And as MintyCool did, comparing it to Holocaust Deniers, shows a very real lack of compassion or common sense on MintyCool's part.

[Baine10]

Well, there are good people out there Makatak, don't forget this is a video game forum. People have their fantasies here, no need for the "real world" to come in here. The "real world" doesn't need apply. Leave them burdens behind, etc. Yes, there's no need to pick on every word I use. Admittedly, betrayal is a strong word, but this is the internet, and I am passionate about my games.

Notice the lack of absolutes. I am in control here.

[Mcfly616]

If all the nay sayers share rockman0's logic...it truly would explain a lot haha....wowww that was the most assinine, baseless analogy I have ever heard

[leafyFresh]

Also, there is an ending where Shep is alive and under rubble back on Earth.

If indoc. theory is wrong, then how did Shep

1.) survive the citadel explosion
2.) have enough air when falling to Earth
3.) survive the landing on hard city rubble

[Alraiis]

I don't believe that Bioware intended the Indoctrination interpretation, or that it's part of some secret plan to continue the story. But they did intend ambiguity and speculation. So I have no problem with people speculating. I love the Indoctrination theory.

[Kanon777]

mike123: i just remembered all of the rachni oily shadows dialogue. I am so paranoid right now!

Jessica Merizan: perhaps for good reason?

[Mcfly616]

@rockman0, right now you seem a lot like the groups you described....I feel like I've lost brain cells just by reading that post haha.....did the councilor make you play with blocks in high school to figure out your I.q.?

[Kanon777]

Allison Norfolk: ‏ Ending = despair. Indoc. Theory = hope. Final Hours = despair again. Your tweets = hope again. GAH!! ::bangs head on table::

Jessica Merizan: Final Hours is a cool look at the dev process and documenting that journey but not the authority on the story/what is canon

[rockman0]

MintyCool wrote...

rockman0 wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

rockman0 wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

rockman0 wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

Lethys1 wrote...

Anyone who so emphatically rejects it and claims there's no legitimate backing just lacks an understanding of the theory.  It's fine, no one can prove it's correct or false, but it certainly makes sense and has proof behind it.

Truthers 9/11, Holocaust Deniers, etc.

With your logic the above organizations are legit. Don't try to flock your feathers with your intellectual superiority unless you have an understanding with wtf you're talking about.

Speak more multi-syllable words in a random order; I enjoy it puppet.


Checkmate.

You shouldn't compare real life crackpot theories to some pass time on a video game forum. After all, those real-life events weren't "open for interpretation." Besides, what occurred in those events are a lot more serious than some video game ending that you happened to dislike.

Checkmate rescinded.

Exactly my point,

A movement requires work, and you're too lazy for that. A similar example would be people watching the Kony YouTube doc, and then lazily contribute to the cause by changing their Facebook status....

Hold the line? lol.

If you really do have this much passion, it's a shame that you're wasting your energy on a 15min pixel cutscene and not contributing to something worthwhile in your life....

Hold the line? It would seem you're not holding anything...

Check And Mate.

And you've come to that conclusion how? How can you tell what someone does in their life by what you see online? That's pretty pretentious of you. Besides, the same could be said of you. Why aren't you doing something worthwhile in your life?

Why isn't anyone crying out "Hold the line" doing anything worthwhile with their life?

Still no checkmate. Partly because we're not playing chess.

EDIT: Took your initiative and bolded some parts to make what I'm saying seem important.

Mintycool wrote...

^

Non-sequitur for the win!

Also doubles as irony when you consider the fact that the person in the picture could very well be you. 

I only stepped into this conversation to point out your douchebaggery. 

I've already proved my point in this topic; feel free to continue to talk in circles while being in complete denial.

Checkmate. 

If you had a point, I don't see it. All I see is someone trying to be demeaning and exert a false sense of maturity and superiority over others. The fact that you put a picture of the supposed "condescending wonka" meme shows just what your intentions were: to be condescending. 

[Baine10]

People of the thread: in the real world you cannot fix everything. The internet is bigger than your "real world". Don't try desperately to fix it. It's not your responsibility. Don't try. Not that it's not WORTH to be fixed, but rather your efforts to "fix" the internet will definitely come off as overly aggressive and encroaching/imposing yourself on others. Like dear Cooly has so proven.

Be at peace with each other and offer opinions. The quoting system is one of the worst argument tools ever in the internet. Also, don't expect everyone to be "intelligent" and "knowing".

[rockman0]

Mcfly616 wrote...

@rockman0, right now you seem a lot like the groups you described....I feel like I've lost brain cells just by reading that post haha.....did the councilor make you play with blocks in high school to figure out your I.q.?

I see that now. Sorry. I did go a bit overboard. I'll just leave now. I guess i was trying to match the poster's level in terms of being a jerk. 

EDIT: On the other hand, I think you are confusing me with someone else. I actually believe in the indoctrination theory. The person I was respond to does not.

Modifié par rockman0, 16 mars 2012 - 07:52 .

[Warhawk7137]

Alraiis wrote...

I don't believe that Bioware intended the Indoctrination interpretation, or that it's part of some secret plan to continue the story. But they did intend ambiguity and speculation. So I have no problem with people speculating. I love the Indoctrination theory.

Exactly.  Who cares whether they intended it?  Unless BioWare ultimately torpedoes the theory, which I would be perfeclty fine with them doing if they replaced both it and the literal interpretation of the current endings with something that actually makes some bloody sense, then it's a perfectly valid interpretation.

[Lethys1]

MintyCool wrote...

rockman0 wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

rockman0 wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

rockman0 wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

Lethys1 wrote...

Anyone who so emphatically rejects it and claims there's no legitimate backing just lacks an understanding of the theory.  It's fine, no one can prove it's correct or false, but it certainly makes sense and has proof behind it.

Truthers 9/11, Holocaust Deniers, etc.

With your logic the above organizations are legit. Don't try to flock your feathers with your intellectual superiority unless you have an understanding with wtf you're talking about.

Speak more multi-syllable words in a random order; I enjoy it puppet.


Checkmate.

You shouldn't compare real life crackpot theories to some pass time on a video game forum. After all, those real-life events weren't "open for interpretation." Besides, what occurred in those events are a lot more serious than some video game ending that you happened to dislike.

Checkmate rescinded.

Exactly my point,

A movement requires work, and you're too lazy for that. A similar example would be people watching the Kony YouTube doc, and then lazily contribute to the cause by changing their Facebook status....

Hold the line? lol.

If you really do have this much passion, it's a shame that you're wasting your energy on a 15min pixel cutscene and not contributing to something worthwhile in your life....

Hold the line? It would seem you're not holding anything...

Check And Mate.

And you've come to that conclusion how? How can you tell what someone does in their life by what you see online? That's pretty pretentious of you. Besides, the same could be said of you. Why aren't you doing something worthwhile in your life?

Why isn't anyone crying out "Hold the line" doing anything worthwhile with their life?

Still no checkmate. Partly because we're not playing chess.

EDIT: Took your initiative and bolded some parts to make what I'm saying seem important.

Mintycool wrote...

^

Non-sequitur for the win!

Also doubles as irony when you consider the fact that the person in the picture could very well be you. 

I only stepped into this conversation to point out your douchebaggery. 

I've already proved my point in this topic; feel free to continue to talk in circles while being in complete denial.

Checkmate. 

Stop conveniently ignoring people (my other post which you are not going to quote) once they disprove you.  Just the most annoying kind of troll.  Gosh I have respect for how hard I'm being trolled by you right now.

You can wave your arms around and say no all you like but it turns out you remain ignorant and realize you're just wrong.

Modifié par Lethys1, 16 mars 2012 - 07:51 .

[Jaze55]

Mcfly616 wrote...

MassEffected555....he's not in the wards! He's not IN the citadel when talking to starkid....he's on the OUTSIDE of it! Or do your eyes not see that, just as you can't see him waking up in Concrete rubble?

Yeah that's what you want to believe. All the evidence I need is that BW ending the game and it's over in an extemely ****ty way. Until they prove me wrong all you have is a grasping at straws theory. ( AGAIN I do like it its a pretty good read)

Hey I have a theory too. I believe Shepard is really Link. See what happens is the Reapers kidnapped Zelda and Link went to the future to save her. Only problem is while going to the future a bomerang Link threw a day before today hit him in the head. Anderson found him with amnesia and told him this fantastic story about how he is Commander Shepard just so Anderson wouldn't have to be the one that talked to the star kid with no helmet because Anderson knew how stupid that would look.

PROVE TO ME IT ISNT TRUE!!!

[Rafe34]

Makatak wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

Makatak wrote...

Baine10 wrote...

[...] The IT is a symbol of hope and good faith, in that Bioware has not completely betrayed every single soul that invested in this franchise and commander shepard, who were only looking for face-value closure.

It's not betrayal, it's just a let-down. I think people are getting a little overdramatic with the idea that maybe, again, it was just bad writing. I don't think Stephanie Meyer betrayed vampire fans when she wrote Twilight. She simply wrote a bad series of books (rather, to be politically correct, she wrote a series of books that I am not a fan of...though I'm supported by several legitimate literary critics and minds that agree that her writing is, indeed, awful).

While the IT believers think that Bioware cannot fail, I instead think that Bioware believed it could not fail, and were subsequently wrong. One of these theories suggests an imperviousness that I refuse to believe exists in our real-world universe.

It IS a betrayal when you look at everything they said they were going to do, even as close to the release as January- when there was no way they changed any endings.

They told us we were going to get one thing, and gave us another. If that isn't the definition of breach of trust, I don't know what is.

Link to all the statements they made that are now completely false:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10056886/1

Welcome to the world of advertisement. What Bioware did to sell you the game is the same thing as what Axe does to sell deodorant. In one, a fictional universe is designed to get the consumer to believe they save the galaxy. In the other, a consumer is led to believe they may exist in a universe where their scent causes women to become sexually enraged to points of near-orgasmic volatility. So neither actually exist; is anyone suing Axe for false advertisement?

It wasn't a breach of trust, it was a breach of the reader-writer contract, which arguably should be rewritten for the sake of games as a storytelling medium, but that's another problem in and of itself, and the latest Forbes article on the debate suggests that every major game developer will be citing the ME3 endings as what not to do for years to come.

Oh come the **** on. That is not even at ALL the same thing. Did you even read the OP in that thread I posted? The Axe commercials are obviously fake, because everyone knows that doesn't happen. BW was addressing specific questions about the ending of ME3 and they were knowing telling us false information if the current endings are true. Completely the opposite of what we got.

What you're saying suggests that every advertiser can just blatantly lie about their product and we can't do **** about it. 

[Sepharih]

The Free Jaffa wrote...

They said they wanted to create fan speculation, right? This was said in that stupid app. So what's the problem with the indoctrination theory?

DING DING DING!!! We have a winner.

I repeat, if Bioware and their apologists didn't want something like the indoctrination theory to take hold they should not have gone with such a nonsensical ending that was designed purely to promote discussion and speculation.

[Kanon777]

leafyFresh wrote...

Also, there is an ending where Shep is alive and under rubble back on Earth.

If indoc. theory is wrong, then how did Shep

1.) survive the citadel explosion
2.) have enough air when falling to Earth
3.) survive the landing on hard city rubble

Dont you get it? The same people who made an absolutely amazing game for 99% of the jorney forgot to do an amazing job at the ending, or they clearly hate us all *insert EAware complaint*

[Rafe34]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

MassEffected555....he's not in the wards! He's not IN the citadel when talking to starkid....he's on the OUTSIDE of it! Or do your eyes not see that, just as you can't see him waking up in Concrete rubble?

Yeah that's what you want to believe. All the evidence I need is that BW ending the game and it's over in an extemely ****ty way. Until they prove me wrong all you have is a grasping at straws theory. ( AGAIN I do like it its a pretty good read)

Hey I have a theory too. I believe Shepard is really Link. See what happens is the Reapers kidnapped Zelda and Link went to the future to save her. Only problem is while going to the future a bomerang Link threw a day before today hit him in the head. Anderson found him with amnesia and told him this fantastic story about how he is Commander Shepard just so Anderson wouldn't have to be the one that talked to the star kid with no helmet because Anderson knew how stupid that would look.

PROVE TO ME IT ISNT TRUE!!!

Zero evidence supporting it.

Indoc has at least 30, I think, "plotholes" in the original ending that are explained by it, as well as numerous things that point to that final sequence being a dream sequence. (The trees from Shepard's dreams appear behind you all of a sudden, for one).

[MissMaster_2]

You don't like the theory, then okay. People can believe what they want.

Stop.