56 réponses à ce sujet

[DeathEnder7]

@font-face {
font-family: "Wingdings";
}@font-face {
font-family: "Cambria";
}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; }




So in my view the
indoctrination theory is false. It’s a bit too obvious and the logic people are
applying doesn’t make sense to me, I can think of counter arguments for most
the points raised and have been in other threads. I’m not going to go into that
though I want to suggest a new theory, one I’ve been thinking about for a few
days now and its becoming more a more obvious the more I add to it, and gives
good reasons for everything that happens at the end.

First off you have to
accept that the ending is a cliff hanger, but it is also the end to the Reaper
story. In this way Bioware have given you a full and complete game.

Secondly you need to
realise the Shepard has survived in some form in each of the 3 perfect
endings.  Initially everyone has
said that all off the endings are the same. For the most part that is true, but
that have subtle differences that offer evidence to confirm my theory.  I’ll go through them one at a time.

The destruction
choice, the citadel blows up after sending a beam of energy to the mass
relay.  The Normandy Crash lands
and Joker and (from what I can figure) one of you team members from the last
mission stands beside him and the other walks out as the screen pans out.  Then we see the body of commander
Shepard breathing in. So lets except Shepard survives and is on Earth, lots of
people dismiss this in the indoctrination theory because he can’t survive in
space and would burn up in re-entry. However there is the beam that he and
Anderson came in on, the beam doesn’t put Anderson and Shepard in the same
place, so lets assume it can remove them from anywhere on the citadel and send
them back to Earth. Lets further assume that because the Citadel was blowing up
its gone and removed every living thing from the Citadel, including Shepard and
sent him back down to the planet, and Shepard has been buried by rubble from
the Shockwave of the Citadel.

The control choice,
the Citadel sends out a shockwave, however this is the only choice where the
Citadel doesn’t blow up! The shockwave sets off the mass relay chain reaction
and not an energy beam? So why make this one different? Well because Shepard
has now effectively uploaded himself as the Catalyst and is part of the
Citadel, although his body has been destroyed his consciousness resides inside
it controlling the reapers. Which if I were him I send them all to have a nice
vacation in the nearest sun. Also the Normandy crash lands but Joker and your
first party member stand a look at the view again.  Which I find interesting because surely EDI would be there?
It makes sense she is not in the destruction choice because she probably died
in that choice but why not make an appearance here? I have a theory and will
come back to it.

The Synthesis choice,
the Citadel blows up after sending a beam of energy to the mass relay. The
Normandy Crash lands and Joker and EDI stand and admires the view and get
cuddly, Joker now looks partly synthetic in the shadowy parts of his body. As
explained by the spirit boy Shepard’s body is destroyed but it power/spirit is
spread across the stars to create a new DNA in everyone.

So now we have either
a live body, his mind as an AI and his essence spread across the cosmos. So
what difference does this make, well let look at two of are new characters and
Liara. Liara makes a mind meld connection with Shepard before the push for the
beam, lets say she had formed a link with him, she would know if he is alive or
dead, or perhaps laying in a pile of rubble.  We have EDI who being and AI herself would be the perfect
Character to talk to an AI version of Shepard, or for Shepard to call for help
from. Lastly we have Javic a no nonsense Prothean who can tell you your life
history just by holding your underwear, so I wonder what he would get from
anyone that has the spirit of Shepard in them? What we have here is three
characters that can save Shepard in anyone of the 3 possible situations. This
is also why I think EDI is not on the Normandy scene in the control ending as
she is still on Earth so she can then talk to Shepard.

So why did the
Normandy leave orbit? Why did it pick up the surviving members of your team on
Earth? It’s simple, the beam going up to the Citadel was too well defended, the
crew think Shepard failed and no one got to the beam! It is crucial they get
onto the Citadel open it for the Crucible so lets think, what other way could
they get onto the Citadel? Maybe some kind of back door? Hmmm where have we
seen one of those? Think ME1, you got it ?? Their heading for Ilos to the
conduit to get to on the Citadel like they did in ME1 (which as far as I can
tell hasn’t been removed?) And if my theory is wrong; this would have been the
bloody better way of doing it in the first place! Instead of the frontal
assault! However now I’ve contemplated it this might have been how TIM got on
the Citadel in the first place. So Cerberus could be controlling it.  

 So lets assume the mini mass relays
haven’t been destroyed by the shockwave and that the Normandy crash landed on
the Ilos. The mass relays are supposed to be semi indestructible so lets also
assume that on the two occasions that the citadel exploded the mini relay on
board crashed to the Earth.  The
crew now have a way back to Earth or the Citadel.  The galaxy also has a blue print design on how to rebuild the
mass relays this could take a few decades but it can be done.

So now, I strongly
believe with all this above the DLC is about saving Shepard or bringing him
back to existence in some kind of AI upload or spirit transfer to a clone body
or something like that! I haven’t figured out how the crew being on Ilos will affect
this, maybe it has something to do with Inussanon the race the came before the
Protheans, maybe they have the means to clone or something. I can’t see why the
writers would come up with them in Javics dialog otherwise? Cerberus will be
there and we’ll probably end up playing as one of the other members of the crew
or as a new character, possible the guy that is narrating from Big Ben in the
teaser trailer, think we are introduced to him back on Earth? Again he could
have been picked up with the others, why introduce the character otherwise??

I trust Bioware not to
give us a lazy ending, they’ve worked more hours on this than we’ve played it!
They surely love these characters as much as we do, so reason Bioware cut lots
of this out is because to show us too much we would fill in the blanks too
easily. Don’t get me wrong this a marketing strategy, but one that I can’t get
mad at like the indoctrination theory! As that one suggest we don’t have a
complete product, which I’m sure there are laws against! We’d have to pay to
get the ending to the Reapers. With this we have seen the end of the Reapers
and we have taken back Earth! So we have done what the game intended! Instead
with this theory the DLC now gives us a choice to buy it and save Shepard… or
not and leave him as a fallen legend.

It just all seems to
fit. I wanted to put it out there and see what you all think.  Possible give people A New Hope J    

[Phattee Buttz]

Waaaaaaaay too reliant on assumptions.

[Dynomite15]

I'm sick of these theories..... The indoctrination one and this one are both wrong. Bioware made the ending how it is. They didn't think it through, and you guys coming up with these elaborate meanings to the endings is you just having buyers remorse. The endings suck, bioware didn't realize it, and now they are paying for it with pissed customers. You're reading too much into it.

[BuffyLadySlayer]

Any theories we come up with at this point are going to be based on assumptions. There simply isn't enough in any of the cut scenes for us to know if any of them are correct. For now, I am choosing to believe that Bioware knows what they are doing. Am I happy with what they have done so far? Absolutely not. It feels like a punch in the gut and I keep carrying it around with me like the memory of something I love lost. For now, I will keep hoping that Bioware has a plan and the heartache will be absolved at some point in the near future. They have to love the characters just as much as any of us. They are their creators and they have spent years building an amazing universe. Let's hope they want to give their characters the respect of a good finale.

[Jaze55]

STFU with these theories. None of the BS matters anyway till BW responds. Its so pathetic.

I am seriously moving away from this movement if these are the people I am in it with.

The end we got is the end, period. WTF are we trying to change it for if you believe the indoc theory is true? All is ok in the ME world then so wtf line are we holding?

[DeathEnder7]

Yes I'm assuming a lot, they haven't giving us much to go on. However the logic fits with the plot holes they've left, this is a marketing strategy plain and simple. They are giving us a choice now to save Shepard or to not, we still have some control of the ending. Bioware are keeping quite about this because they know the outcome.
If I'm honest I'm okay with the endings to me they feel open ended. They given Bioware the means to shape ME4 how they see fit, if they leave it this way. I just sure the logic of the above fits, it fits better than indoctrination.

[Chloe_W1971]

DeathEnder7 wrote...
First off you have to accept that the ending is a cliff hanger, but it is also the end to the Reaper
story. In this way Bioware have given you a full and complete game.

No, I don't. There is no evidence at all for that assumption.

Thus spake DeathEnder7...
Secondly you need to realise the Shepard has survived in some form in each of the 3 perfect
endings.  Initially everyone has said that all off the endings are the same. For the most part that is true, but
that have subtle differences that offer evidence to confirm my theory.  I’ll go through them one at a time.

Evidence from the actual game does not support that, apart from the red button ending with EMS > 4000. Even there, the assumption rests solely on a few seconds of an ambiguous movie.

DeathEnder6 quoth...
The destruction choice, the citadel blows up after sending a beam of energy to the mass
relay.  The Normandy Crash lands [description of cut scene]

The Normandy that was in the battle and has no business disengaging...

So sayeth DeathEnder7...
So lets except Shepard survives and is on Earth, lots of people dismiss this in the indoctrination theory because he can’t survive in space and would burn up in re-entry. However there is the beam that he and Anderson came in on, the beam doesn’t put Anderson and Shepard in the same place, so lets assume it can remove them from anywhere on the citadel and send them back to Earth. Lets further assume that because the Citadel was blowing up its gone and removed every living thing from the Citadel, including Shepard and sent him back down to the planet, and Shepard has been buried by rubble from the Shockwave of the Citadel.

Why assume anything? How would the explosion of the citadel in orbit cause a shockwave on the ground at all? A massive EMP, depending on the nature of its explosion, okay. A shockwave, no.

DeathEnder7 opines...
The control choice,
the Citadel sends out a shockwave, however this is the only choice where the Citadel doesn’t blow up! The shockwave sets off the mass relay chain reaction and not an energy beam? So why make this one different? Well because Shepard has now effectively uploaded himself as the Catalyst and is part of the Citadel, although his body has been destroyed his consciousness resides inside it controlling the reapers. Which if I were him I send them all to have a nice vacation in the nearest sun. Also the Normandy crash lands but Joker and your first party member stand a look at the view again.  Which I find interesting because surely EDI would be there? It makes sense she is not in the destruction choice because she probably died in that choice but why not make an appearance here? I have a theory and will come back to it.

Where in the game does it say or even imply that Shepard has uploaded herself as the catalyst? Also, EDI was in my destruction ending, being helped out of the smouldering wreckage of the Normandy by Joker. Your hypothesis doesn't hold up.

DeathEnder7 writes...
The Synthesis choice,
the Citadel blows up after sending a beam of energy to the mass relay. The Normandy Crash lands and Joker and EDI stand and admires the view and get cuddly, Joker now looks partly synthetic in the shadowy parts of his body. As explained by the spirit boy Shepard’s body is destroyed but it power/spirit is spread across the stars to create a new DNA in everyone.

DNA is not propagated by green energy beams. There is absolutely no precedent in the ME Universe where anything like that was established before the ending of ME3. All we have to work with are the words of Creepy Space Boy, and I don't know I can trust him/it.

Shall I go on?

[Makatak]

MassEffected555 wrote...

STFU with these theories. None of the BS matters anyway till BW responds. Its so pathetic.

I am seriously moving away from this movement if these are the people I am in it with.

The end we got is the end, period. WTF are we trying to change it for if you believe the indoc theory is true? All is ok in the ME world then so wtf line are we holding?

Welcome to the Fifth Stage of Grief. We have been expecting your arrival. The coffee and donuts are over there.

[Ukjack44]

I think the theory of "They ****ed up big time" has the most support. Oh well only 2 more years till Mass Effect 4 and 9 months till the end of the world.

[Sam Anders]

MassEffected555 wrote...

STFU with these theories. None of the BS matters anyway till BW responds. Its so pathetic.

I am seriously moving away from this movement if these are the people I am in it with.

The end we got is the end, period. WTF are we trying to change it for if you believe the indoc theory is true? All is ok in the ME world then so wtf line are we holding?

Because if the indoctrination theory is true there is no ending? All is not ok in the Mass Effect universe regardless of the ending you choose to believe? I didn't realize that just theorizing was not acceptable, especially since BioWare pretty much just says "lots of speculation from everybody!"

If you're going to be like this we don't want you as part of this movement.

[Texhnolyze101]

MassEffected555 wrote...

STFU with these theories. None of the BS matters anyway till BW responds. Its so pathetic.

I am seriously moving away from this movement if these are the people I am in it with.

The end we got is the end, period. WTF are we trying to change it for if you believe the indoc theory is true? All is ok in the ME world then so wtf line are we holding?

A line we most definitely do not need you on.

[meiwow2]

My god dude, HE IS NOT IN SPACE! he is hallucinating! THAT'S the indoctrination/halucination theory.
He gets knocked out by the red beam and everything after that is a dream semi-manipulated by the reapers.
Geez... all these "indoctrination theory doesn't work" people... get it already.

Modifié par meiwow2, 16 mars 2012 - 08:16 .

[GnusmasTHX]

OP in summation:

1. In the Destroy ending Shepard lives.

2. In the Control ending Shepard lives as the new Catalyst.

3. In the Synthesis ending Shepard lives as synthetic Jesus.

[shurryy]

Dynomite15 wrote...

I'm sick of these theories..... The indoctrination one and this one are both wrong. Bioware made the ending how it is. They didn't think it through, and you guys coming up with these elaborate meanings to the endings is you just having buyers remorse. The endings suck, bioware didn't realize it, and now they are paying for it with pissed customers. You're reading too much into it.

Hey, I got a solution for you if you're sick of the theories.

DON'T
CLICK
THE 
TOPIC
LINK

Saves you the trouble of clicking it, reading it, and disliking it. 

Same goes for the rest of you who are tired of the theory topics! Let people type what they want or TRY to stop them if you're absolutely against it! I dare you! 

MassEffected555 wrote...

STFU with these theories. None of the BS matters anyway till BW responds. Its so pathetic.

I am seriously moving away from this movement if these are the people I am in it with. 

The end we got is the end, period. WTF are we trying to change it for if you believe the indoc theory is true? All is ok in the ME world then so wtf line are we holding?

 

Same goes for you! So STFU and GTFO of the threads you don't want to read about! 

Modifié par shurryy, 16 mars 2012 - 08:28 .

[shurryy]

Doubleposted...

Modifié par shurryy, 16 mars 2012 - 08:27 .

[DeathEnder7]

Chloe_W1971 wrote...



No, I don't. There is no evidence at all for that assumption.



Erm there is, Biowares keeping quite?



Evidence from the actual game does not support that, apart from the red button ending with EMS > 4000. Even there, the assumption rests solely on a few seconds of an ambiguous movie.

Well do I not go on to explain how he surviving?? Think out of the box a little!

The Normandy that was in the battle and has no business disengaging...

If they have orders to leave to try another way to accomplish the object then yeah they would!



Why assume anything? How would the explosion of the citadel in orbit cause a shockwave o the ground at all? A massive EMP, depending on the nature of its explosion, okay. A shockwave, no.

I'm assuming just to counter the arguments of him burning up in the Earths atmosphere!



Where in the game does it say or even imply that Shepard has uploaded herself as the catalyst? Also, EDI was in my destruction ending, being helped out of the smouldering wreckage of the Normandy by Joker. Your hypothesis doesn't hold up.

He will control the Reapers! If he is controlling them he has to exist! The Citidel not blowing up in the end supports this!


DNA is not propagated by green energy beams. There is absolutely no precedent in the ME Universe where anything like that was established before the ending of ME3. All we have to work with are the words of Creepy Space Boy, and I don't know I can trust him/it.

The creepy space Boy states it will create a new DNA, either way my interpretation means Shepards energy is passed out across the universe!

Shall I go on?

Please?

[Chloe_W1971]

DeathEnder7 wrote...

Chloe_W1971 wrote...



No, I don't. There is no evidence at all for that assumption.



Erm there is, Biowares keeping quite?




Evidence from the actual game does not support that, apart from the red button ending with EMS > 4000. Even there, the assumption rests solely on a few seconds of an ambiguous movie.

Well do I not go on to explain how he surviving?? Think out of the box a little!

The Normandy that was in the battle and has no business disengaging...

If they have orders to leave to try another way to accomplish the object then yeah they would!



Why assume anything? How would the explosion of the citadel in orbit cause a shockwave o the ground at all? A massive EMP, depending on the nature of its explosion, okay. A shockwave, no.

I'm assuming just to counter the arguments of him burning up in the Earths atmosphere!



Where in the game does it say or even imply that Shepard has uploaded herself as the catalyst? Also, EDI was in my destruction ending, being helped out of the smouldering wreckage of the Normandy by Joker. Your hypothesis doesn't hold up.

He will control the Reapers! If he is controlling them he has to exist! The Citidel not blowing up in the end supports this!


DNA is not propagated by green energy beams. There is absolutely no precedent in the ME Universe where anything like that was established before the ending of ME3. All we have to work with are the words of Creepy Space Boy, and I don't know I can trust him/it.

The creepy space Boy states it will create a new DNA, either way my interpretation means Shepards energy is passed out across the universe!

Shall I go on?

Please?

Bioware keeping quiet doesn't necessarily mean that they are changing
the endings, though. And as long as they don't comment on the topic,
there is no evidence that the "pick the red, blue or green explosion"
ending is a cliffhanger, as you assume. Now, if BW said something along the lines of "Ha, we totes punked you! The real ending will be available as a DLC in [insert month here]", that would be evidence. Don't get me wrong, I hope they fix this poor excuse for an ending, but my hopes don't exactly matter.

Okay, I will go on. I'll need to go back to your original post, though.

Edited to add:

Short version of my argument: 

Shepard may or may not survive in the red button ending, depending on you EMS and your interpretation of the "someone with N7 tags takes a breath amidst the rubble" video.

Shepard does not survive in Shepard form in the two other endings. Reaper-Shep goes against anything the games - including ME3 until the final 15 minutes - stood for. It also doesn't provide any satisfaction or closure. Shepard-as-DNA-that-gets-miraculously-spread across-the-galaxy cannot be called "surviving" in any meaningful definition of the term "survival". We are more than our DNA. We are, among other things, products of our culture, our experiences, our education and so on. My egg cells, which after all contain a complete copy of my DNA, aren't me.

So, I don't have to assume - in fact I can't assume - that Shepard survives in all the endings.

As for the mind-meld argument concerning Liara, nowhere in the preceding games has it been established that such a connection can give the Asari partner any informaiton about the current state of the other partner. So that's not something I'm willing to base an assumption on.

DeathEnder7 writes...
So why did the Normandy leave orbit? Why did it pick up the surviving members of your team on Earth? It’s simple, the beam going up to the Citadel was too well defended, the crew think Shepard failed and no one got to the beam! It is crucial they get onto the Citadel open it for the Crucible so lets think, what other way could they get onto the Citadel? Maybe some kind of back door? Hmmm where have we seen one of those? Think ME1, you got it ?? Their heading for Ilos to the conduit to get to on the Citadel like they did in ME1 (which as far as I can tell hasn’t been removed?) And if my theory is wrong; this would have been the bloody better way of doing it in the first place! Instead of the frontal assault! However now I’ve contemplated it this might have been how TIM got on the Citadel in the first place. So Cerberus could be controlling it. 

I see some problems with this: 
1. It's never implied or stated during the final minutes of the game that Normandy is sent off to do this.
2. In ME2 the council says that Vigil was defunct and they found nothing on Ilos. Assuming that the Conduit was still functional, let alone active, is a hell of a longshot.
However, I agree that using the conduit would have been a better method of getting the Normandy crew on the Citadel in the first place. Alas, Hudson apparently thought differently.

DeathEnder7 writes...
So lets assume the mini mass relays haven’t been destroyed by the shockwave and that the Normandy crash landed on the Ilos. The mass relays are supposed to be semi indestructible so lets also assume that on the two occasions that the citadel exploded the mini relay on board crashed to the Earth. The crew now have a way back to Earth or the Citadel.  The galaxy also has a blue print design on how to rebuild the mass relays this could take a few decades but it can be done.

Semi indestructible != indestructible. And even if the Conduit survives re-entry and the subsequent crash in London (which, by the way would not be good for whatever is left standing of London), it is only one way. In ME1 it was established that the mini-relay on the citadel can only act as a receiver, whereas the one on Ilos can only act as a transmitter.

Rebuilding the relay network may take a few decades or a few millennia, but the point is, until that time, there is no galactic civilization anymore. No cooperation, no contact. Earth is overburdened with the rebuilding of its own infrastructure plus coping with hundreds of thousands or even millions of people on the fleets that fought the reapers. Palaven and Thessia don't look much better, and Rannoch doesn't have much population - most Quarians are stranded in Earth orbit.

So, in conclusion: While I do not discount the possibility of a DLC that changes the ending somehow, I don't see it as a foregone conclusion either. Bioware may well announce something like that, or they may try to sell us MP outfit DLCs. I don't know, and I have no way of knowing until they comment. The endings as they are now are unbelievably bad, horribly written and are nowhere near logically consistent. I want Bioware to give us a real ending, but then my desires hardly matter.

Modifié par Chloe_W1971, 16 mars 2012 - 09:02 .

[thesnake777]

MassEffected555 wrote...

STFU with these theories. None of the BS matters anyway till BW responds. Its so pathetic.

I am seriously moving away from this movement if these are the people I am in it with.

The end we got is the end, period. WTF are we trying to change it for if you believe the indoc theory is true? All is ok in the ME world then so wtf line are we holding?

People are just trying to make sense of everything. I understand it can be upsetting. We need the endings changed to stop this.
Regardless 
Hold The Line

[vigna]

The fact that we have to develop wild theories to explain teh end is damning in and of itself.

[DeathEnder7]

I think Bioware know what they are doing, there still giving us a choice with this theory, however they are not create half a product with the out of box game. We defeat the reapers in end, that's what we are supposed to do. Saving Shepard is what the DLC will be, I can't think of anyone who won't pay to bring back Shepard.

[Scott Sion]

You know you don't have a valid argument when you say "Lets assume" forty-three times.

[DeathEnder7]

vigna wrote...

The fact that we have to develop wild theories to explain teh end is damning in and of itself.

Thats the point of a cliff hanger, we expect this stuff in TV and Film, Bioware having choosen to do it on a game we're so emotionally invested in that there stired up a hornest nest. The press they are getting is huge tho and at the end of the month they'll release a DLC to save Shepard.

[Helen0rz]

That's a lot of assumption; if we're just assuming then anything is possible and kind of ridiculous at this point.

[Jaze55]

thesnake777 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

STFU with these theories. None of the BS matters anyway till BW responds. Its so pathetic.

I am seriously moving away from this movement if these are the people I am in it with.

The end we got is the end, period. WTF are we trying to change it for if you believe the indoc theory is true? All is ok in the ME world then so wtf line are we holding?

People are just trying to make sense of everything. I understand it can be upsetting. We need the endings changed to stop this.
Regardless 
Hold The Line

SENSE is BW made a terribly bad ending. That's it. Nothing else was planned, they made a VERY BAD ENDING.

WTF with all these excuses for them. THATS my problem. Herp Derp BW is so smart and we are so smart for figuring them out. Hooray guyz we are geniuses that figured out the TRUE indoc ending. ( you know the one thats NOT IN THE GAME THEY SOLD US)


THAT is why I am upset and that is why I am giving up on this holding the line crap. People are dwawing up new lines everyone 30 minutes. 

[TheCrakFox]

I like the idea that the planet at the end is Ilos, with the conduit linking it to Earth. Still too much space magic though.

Anyway I like theories, we need more theories.