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[Herr Uhl]

The difference in in what you think about what you do, not how others perceive you.



Psychopathic serial killers seldom go around flaunting their killing ways.

[ReubenLiew]

Recidiva wrote...
And that's my thing too.  Way too much exposure.  Always three witnesses watching me.  And then I'd immediately have to kill them, as I leave no witnesses. 

I don't WANT to lie, I want to do what I choose to do and then not HAVE to lie because I'm a badass.  I want to intimidate and threaten my way to stat bonuses..  Not an option.  If I'm my level of evil, I end up having to kill everyone for being stupid and have them hate me for being honest.  Evil doesn't have to lie.  Evil just goes on being evil because the truth is so much worse than lies and that can work to evil's advantage if evil doesn't realize the value of say...healing.

Ahh and therein lies the problem. Honest evil is just silly! Lieing in the gateway to true evil. When lies twist upon lies and grows and grows into a life unto itself, it's an artform.

After all, being a True Magnificent Bastard honesty is not required, and the end always justifies the means. If that means that a few people require lieing to, so be it, it's their fault for being stupid and gullible anyway.
And of course, the law of all successful evil overlords is 'Always bring companions that see it YOUR way'.

You're more psychopath than evil anyway, if you want to be honest about being evil.

[ReubenLiew]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The difference in in what you think about what you do, not how others perceive you.

Psychopathic serial killers seldom go around flaunting their killing ways.

No, actually psychopathic serial killers do flaunt their evil, king-slaying ways, to quote a funny man. If you read up on a lot of the famous serial killers of the past, they love to keep their victims belongings, or make a trend, or do something that identifies them from everyone else. They have patterns of behaviours, they like the skirt the line of being caught just to feel they are superior than everyone else.

There are of course those that are smarter than the rest and actually keep to themselves.

[Recidiva]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Ahh and therein lies the problem. Honest evil is just silly! Lieing in the gateway to true evil. When lies twist upon lies and grows and grows into a life unto itself, it's an artform.

After all, being a True Magnificent Bastard honesty is not required, and the end always justifies the means. If that means that a few people require lieing to, so be it, it's their fault for being stupid and gullible anyway.
And of course, the law of all successful evil overlords is 'Always bring companions that see it YOUR way'.

You're more psychopath than evil anyway, if you want to be honest about being evil.

Honest evil is awesome.  It's my preferred brand. 

If I have to play the same game in my head but just think "Ahah!  I'm lying to you!  Neener...but...I'm too much of a chicken**** to admit I'm lying to you...because I'm really lying to you because I need you..."  NOT EVIL.  That's just pragmatic good pretending to be evil by saying "Nyah, nyah" in your head. 

I prefer "I'm not going to lie to you.  Not because I value honesty, but because I can't be bothered to make something up for you.  But you're going to do what I say because otherwise I'm going to find fun ways to shave off bits of your brain or body parts.  And don't try to get away, because I'll just shave off more.  In thinner strips.  But a lot more strips."

I don't care that they see it my way.  I care that they DO it my way.  Complain all they want.

[Recidiva]

ReubenLiew wrote...

No, actually psychopathic serial killers do flaunt their evil, king-slaying ways, to quote a funny man. If you read up on a lot of the famous serial killers of the past, they love to keep their victims belongings, or make a trend, or do something that identifies them from everyone else. They have patterns of behaviours, they like the skirt the line of being caught just to feel they are superior than everyone else.

There are of course those that are smarter than the rest and actually keep to themselves.

Right.  they're the ones that get caught because they're busy sending letters to the cops saying "HAH HAH!  You can't catch me!" until the cops catch them.

Too much caring about what other people think.  It's good enough to know that the cops can't catch me, I don't need to idolize them like some rebellious teenager stomping upstairs because he's grounded and then plotting his petty revenge.

I'll just go on my merry way doing horrible things and getting away with it.

[Herr Uhl]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The difference in in what you think about what you do, not how others perceive you.

Psychopathic serial killers seldom go around flaunting their killing ways.

No, actually psychopathic serial killers do flaunt their evil, king-slaying ways, to quote a funny man. If you read up on a lot of the famous serial killers of the past, they love to keep their victims belongings, or make a trend, or do something that identifies them from everyone else. They have patterns of behaviours, they like the skirt the line of being caught just to feel they are superior than everyone else.

There are of course those that are smarter than the rest and actually keep to themselves.

Yes, that I know, but they don't go around telling people to screw themselves and telling the world that they like to kill little girls after raping them. They give hints, being a little vain thus wanting their greatness to be seen or because they don't like what they do (in some cases).

But many of them are the ones that neighbors describe as "fine upstanding members of society".

[ReubenLiew]

Honest evil, in my mind, is like a Khorne Lord. Brutal, savage and honest.

Results in lots of dead bodies.

Just like the game!



The evil overlord of lies is like a Tzeentch Lord. Smart, cunning, and devious.

Results in lots of lies and results.

Just like the game!



In case you don't follow warhammer. Khorne is the God of violence and Tzeetnch is the Great Manipulator. Both are extremely evil but are complete polar opposites of each other.

[Recidiva]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Yes, that I know, but they don't go around telling people to screw themselves and telling the world that they like to kill little girls after raping them. They give hints, being a little vain thus wanting their greatness to be seen or because they don't like what they do (in some cases).

But many of them are the ones that neighbors describe as "fine upstanding members of society".

Thus you'd think, after seeing that those "hints" have gotten lots of people captured in the history of capturing...that you wouldn't indulge in the vanity yourself.  If you want to not be a ******.  All it takes is one reasonably not stupid cop or one intuitive neighbor.

I don't have to be dumb evil.  The kind who gets caught, or the sick evil, the kind that...well, Loghain and Howe, for instance.  Dumb evil.  Arrogant, cruel and blind.

I prefer the charismatic, do it my way because otherwise it goes badly for you, because I'll make sure it goes badly for you...path.  But sane evil also gets the job done because it's the most pragmatic way to assure that you can make sure things go badly for those who oppose said sane evil person.

[Herr Uhl]

Recidiva wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Yes, that I know, but they don't go around telling people to screw themselves and telling the world that they like to kill little girls after raping them. They give hints, being a little vain thus wanting their greatness to be seen or because they don't like what they do (in some cases).

But many of them are the ones that neighbors describe as "fine upstanding members of society".

Thus you'd think, after seeing that those "hints" have gotten lots of people captured in the history of capturing...that you wouldn't indulge in the vanity yourself.  If you want to not be a ******.  All it takes is one reasonably not stupid cop or one intuitive neighbor.

Yes, the ones who got caught. <_<

[Recidiva]

Herr Uhl wrote...
Yes, the ones who got caught. <_<

Right.  Generally I would like to build my model of functioning evil on someone who succeeded at it.  Not the poor schlubs that just were sick and stupid and were too busy hearing maniacal laughter in their heads to pause a moment and strategize.

There's calculated evil and then "I can't help it because I have unfortunate brain chemistry."

Modifié par Recidiva, 12 décembre 2009 - 03:48 .

[ReubenLiew]

How does honest evil work into a functioning evil then?

Most evil people who don't get caught are pretty damn good liars. They'd have to be to not get caught.

[Herr Uhl]

Recidiva wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Yes, the ones who got caught. <_<

Right.  Generally I would like to build my model of functioning evil on someone who succeeded at it.  Not the poor schlubs that just were sick and stupid and were too busy hearing maniacal laughter in their heads to pause a moment and strategize.

There's calculated evil and then "I can't help it because I have unfortunate brain chemistry."

The magnificent bastard is yours my friend.

[Recidiva]

ReubenLiew wrote...

How does honest evil work into a functioning evil then?
Most evil people who don't get caught are pretty damn good liars. They'd have to be to not get caught.

Because if you're smarter and stronger and more capable in battle and social situations than other people, you can use that for greater good or individual profit.  And doing it without lying is just icing.

Being good doesn't have to mean that the "good" person is a self-sacrificing ****** who will never accept anything for themselves.  Enlightened "greater good" means that the good person has to at least take enough to continue to be motivated to continue to be good.  It's compulsive, sick good, that fails to see that benefiting themselves can benefit the greater good.  Mercy is the main tool, used judiciously and not compulsively.  But in the end, no truly good person goes on through life rewarding everyone with mercy if they don't deserve it repeatedly.  Second chances, yes.  Forty seventh chance?  Not so much.

Enlightened evil doesn't have to take everything, but takes enough to assure they are well compensated for their actions.  As long as evil gets what they want, they would have no qualms accomplishing whatever task needs to be accomplished to assure that.  And evil doesn't have to just be cruel.  Cruelty just isn't a tool left out of the box if required.  You can use fear and cruelty as tools effectively.  But not insanely just 'cause you like hurting people.  That, again, is just compulsive.  You can be honest about selfish motives and still gain support, because...you're honest about it.   

The truth is that enlightened good and enlightened evil don't look all that different from each other externally except that one side goes toward the "benefit of the doubt" and evil tends more toward "Yeah, now pull the other one."  It's possible to gather great personal support and admiration by being good.  You can do the same through being evil, if you can prove that it WORKS either way.  You gain converts.

And that's partly where "evil" in this game fails to gain me as a convert.   Because it's unrealistically cruel and stupid in places.

"Psychopath" isn't my "evil" model.  And it's no fun trying to squeeze myself into such a small and cruel headspace in order to buy some of the motivations.

[mousestalker]

I want to play, just once, a villain who has memorized the "Evil Overlord's" list.



Evil, for me, is being someone who cares only about self-fulfillment with no regard for the persons, feelings or property of others. The sort of person who genuinely believes that the universe exists for their own amusement.



In DA:O, such a person would make an effective Grey Warden as the Joining apparently focuses you on fighting darkspawn and the Blight threatens to engulf the world. That threatens my potential domination of the same and takes my minions and pawns out of play. So an evil Grey Warden would lie, cheat, scheme and manipulate their way to victory.



Such a person wouldn't gratuitously tell potentially valuable minions that they are stupid and ugly.

[ReubenLiew]

Well, thats the thing. I don't see the game giving you a choice between 'good and evil'. More realistically it's 3 paths, 'Charitable, Pragmatic, and Lunatic'. Which is why I argue that being evil in this game isn't about doing the craziest thing you can do in the game, which only serves to alienate yourself from your party members. Being evil in the game doesn't mean you HAVE to kill the elves, killing the werewolves serves my purposes just as well, because I choose to be pragmatic and slaughter the wolves, who really are just innocent humans caught in a tangle of misfortunes, but I could less about that, I just want my reward.



About the mages, I don't see why I need to annul such a powerful ally. Templars are a dime a dozen, but mages are born, not made. I could see the potential of such allies, and as such I get to keep Wynne while doing it. Sure the game writes it off as feeling 'good' but that really is just the restriction of the game. You could tell Gregoir to stuff it, the mages owe me, now get outta my way I'm about to collect a favor. It's cold, cruel and heartless, even though you're techincally helping the mages. I went up and slaughtered the defenceless blood mage because I was feeling a little callous at that point.



Of course, it's impossible to be the complete 'Evil Overlord' playthrough in this game because the story of the game doesn't allow for that, but you can be reasonably Magnificent Bastardish in your playthrough.

[mousestalker]

The game also provides a 'poor impulse control' option in a lot of cases.

[LynxAQ]

Well I did my run as evil and played again as evil, I still don't have the heart to tell the dog to get lost... I mean just look at those little eyes!



But as someone mentioned, it does get easier. My only obsession is I have now is to open every chest, even if I know nothing but vendor trash is in the chest, I HAVE TO UNLOCK IT!!!. Seriously bad additcion..



But some things about the "evil" ways I dont like in this game:



1) Very very obvious that the mean and evil comments / actions where tagged on as after thoughts. The writers look like amateurs tbh when you take the evil route.



2) Limited dialogue and being railroaded into good choices. Completely and utterly destroys the immersion and RP... Simple things annoy me in the dialogue like having the only option at the end of a conversation as "Thank you good sir for your help. I must leave now."... and I know my character would NEVER be polite and say such rubbish. Its a little thing but extremely annoying and kills all RP.



Then not even to mention the railroading into good choices is so fing annoying.



3) Slitting all the wrong throats. Perfect example is in Lothering but there are many many many more. You can kill the merchant, even tho I know my character would never kill that guy, he has no reason to... but the farmer near the entrance to Lothering who has just insulted me and been extremely arrogant and rude to me would of has his fing heart ripped out and fed to him.. but there is no option to kill these irritating cretins but options to kill people my character (being a cold hearted killer) would never kill... just signs of more bad writing and proof the evil was tacked on.



4) When there are game choices to be "evil", its lunacy evil... seriously not even my cold hearted killer would side with the freaking lunatic reaver. (Ofcourse I did this 1 playthrough just to unlock the specialisation), but it still silly.



5) No sense of satisfaction, except smacking that **** Isolde in the mouth and slitting her sons throat, other than that none. There are loads of moments when playing the hero route where you think that felt good and satisfying I am glad I did that for those people. But as evil... nothing. I mean you have several very heated arguments with Alistair when being evil (Only person in camp who seems to question your evil.. sigh more bad writing), yet I would expect after the last argument wit him where you tell him being a grey warden is rubbish and means nothing to you, that you would get to have a fight with him (obviously not kill him) but a good old scuffle nonetheless. That would have been satisfying to smash my hilt into his mouth and knock his teeth out, but no nothing... instead I get railroaded back into the being hero crap.



Conclusion this game is made to play good with "evil" as a side thought and tacked on late with bad amateurish writing.

[TcheQ]

LynxAQ wrote...

Well I did my run as evil and played again as evil, I still don't have the heart to tell the dog to get lost... I mean just look at those little eyes!

But as someone mentioned, it does get easier. My only obsession is I have now is to open every chest, even if I know nothing but vendor trash is in the chest, I HAVE TO UNLOCK IT!!!. Seriously bad additcion..

But some things about the "evil" ways I dont like in this game:

1) Very very obvious that the mean and evil comments / actions where tagged on as after thoughts. The writers look like amateurs tbh when you take the evil route.

2) Limited dialogue and being railroaded into good choices. Completely and utterly destroys the immersion and RP... Simple things annoy me in the dialogue like having the only option at the end of a conversation as "Thank you good sir for your help. I must leave now."... and I know my character would NEVER be polite and say such rubbish. Its a little thing but extremely annoying and kills all RP.

Then not even to mention the railroading into good choices is so fing annoying.

3) Slitting all the wrong throats. Perfect example is in Lothering but there are many many many more. You can kill the merchant, even tho I know my character would never kill that guy, he has no reason to... but the farmer near the entrance to Lothering who has just insulted me and been extremely arrogant and rude to me would of has his fing heart ripped out and fed to him.. but there is no option to kill these irritating cretins but options to kill people my character (being a cold hearted killer) would never kill... just signs of more bad writing and proof the evil was tacked on.

4) When there are game choices to be "evil", its lunacy evil... seriously not even my cold hearted killer would side with the freaking lunatic reaver. (Ofcourse I did this 1 playthrough just to unlock the specialisation), but it still silly.

5) No sense of satisfaction, except smacking that **** Isolde in the mouth and slitting her sons throat, other than that none. There are loads of moments when playing the hero route where you think that felt good and satisfying I am glad I did that for those people. But as evil... nothing. I mean you have several very heated arguments with Alistair when being evil (Only person in camp who seems to question your evil.. sigh more bad writing), yet I would expect after the last argument wit him where you tell him being a grey warden is rubbish and means nothing to you, that you would get to have a fight with him (obviously not kill him) but a good old scuffle nonetheless. That would have been satisfying to smash my hilt into his mouth and knock his teeth out, but no nothing... instead I get railroaded back into the being hero crap.

Conclusion this game is made to play good with "evil" as a side thought and tacked on late with bad amateurish writing.

The choices themselves never seem "evil".  I think that is what makes it great, is that people who we might brand as evil don;t necessarily see themselves as doing anything wrong - it's just a natural impulse for them.

For me, branding "sickeningly charitable" or "self righteous" as a "good" choice is mislead.  Some people on this forum can't understand why I would let Loghain live.  I have a swath of reasons.  Alistair's childish antics make him in no way fit to be a king.



I think if you feel that something is "tacked on", then you truly don't understand what it means to be impulsive without moral boundaries.  Some of those choices might seem extreme in some cases, but in others?  I t comes down to your character's personal agenda.  Take for example, the Desire Demon who enslaves the templar who did not cherish his duty, but wished only to have a family etc.  What's the "evil" choice there?  None of the choices in that case are "tacked on".  It would come down to whether you choose to be merciful to the Desire Demon or not.  The choice to let it go might be seen as "not preventing it from happening again" (I get reminded of KOTOR2: "Apathy is death"), but then when how often does a demon like that roam Ferelden?

I think the demand for clear "pleasing" and "offensive" answers is too Mass-Effectish for my liking.

[voidcommander9111980]

in the start always play the nice guy



and after skin them all alive !!! xD



Its easy



Joker out

[Recidiva]

Okay, gonna put my evil constructed character to the test and see if I can manage getting through a dwarven commoner warrior playthrough that involves all intimidation options, and knowingly manipulating all party members (that are still alive, that I can use) with the ultimate goal of making Alistair sacrifice himself. (It is pretty cold when one of the possible conversation options at the end is "Archdemon's that way.")



Purposely taking Shale to the Anvil to kill her, making Anora queen to screw over the elves, Wiping out Wynne before setting foot in the tower and slaughtering all the Dalish.



Easy mode, though. I don't want to have to suffer through the tragic loss of healing this entials. But I do need to finally get a warrior to 20, this seems like a good way.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

I considered myself a snake among the grass. Powerful but subtle. You can have a heart and still be evil. Then again, I am a sucker for shades of grey over black or white directly.



I didn't see much profit in being "EBIL!!!" That was something that actually got on my nerves. All the big evil options didn't seem to have an intelligent return or didn't make sense as far as whatever bargain I made.



Evil just doesn't have a strong enough support structure to be worthwhile. Alistair has way more potential than Sten, Oghren is amusing but I like the templar powers in ways of utility. Zevran isn't as evil as one would believe at first glance, just mercenary. Morrigan's version of evil just leaves me shaking my head.



If I had a reasonable selection of evil characters for support and options that didn't feel like arbitrary murder and lulz, I'd enjoy playing evil. The only time I felt that evil was profitable, truly profitable, over being good was the Desire Demon deal.



Love that Ethereal talent book.

[elkwolf]

It was a bit hard to feel evil because the Blight is pure evil and we have to end it. I would have liked to join the blight and rule all of Fereldan