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ME3's Endings Were Brilliant


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#226
Ryokun1989

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boardnfool86 wrote...

I am going to bullet my reason why to make this easier to read...

1. Your Choices Matter - you affect the future of Earth, Krogans, Quarians, Rachni, and Geth DIRECTLY. You shouldn't need reassurance in the final cinematic to learn what you already know... their fates. In many case you have multiple opportunities to doom various species. Also, various crew and former crew's fates are in your hands. Your ability to unite them also plays a role in your final outcome (which I will get to).

2. The Illusive Man - Shepard's final speech check... can you get the most stubborn, often times vile being int he galaxy to see the error in his ways?

3. Admiral Anderson - Your father figure, and longtime backer, save his life (however briefly) and get a touching moment that had to have a profound impact on Shep and I found my heart aching as I watched (leaving the full dialog would prob help mroe people feel its gravity - but playing through the entire series recently made it a powerful moment for me)

4a. The Final Choice is Epic (Destroy) - Is your Shep so overcome with grief, and driven by a hatred for the Reapers that they wipe out all synthetic life including the Geth which Legion sacrificed himself for and whom EDI has recently discovered her humanity? Or maybe those are non factors cause you dont care for EDI and wiped out the Geth... maybe Legion was sold to Cerberus so you never even knew the other side to the Geth... all of that is based on your choice.

4b. The Final Choice is Epic (Control) - Do you finally see what the Illusive Man was after? Or maybe you can't let all synthetic life die so you can (maybe) live. Maybe you think you can do better... whatever the reason you take CONTROL of the Reapers and replace the Catalyst as the driving force behind the Reapers... then again maybe you offer organics (and synthetics alike) only a brief reprieve.

4c. The Final Choice is Epic (Synthesis) - Or maybe you just want peace, and have come to see the other side of the synthetic coin. Maybe you realize that EVERYONE has been wrong... or that the Reapers/Catalyst/Saren/IM had some valid points but were going about it the wrong way. You realize that organics want to live, but that synthetic is not the next step to evolution but a peripheral one. So you sacrifice yourself, your essence, maybe your soul? (not religious but I am not the God of this fiction) to bring peace and prosperity to the Galaxy.

5. Relays Had to Go - The Mass Relays are part of the architecture meant to wipe out advanced organic life, a framework set up by those you are out to supplant... and they are the delivery system of your retribution, YOUR solution.

6. Sacrifice - The end brings about the meaning of the word. Your hard work was not for naught, you can save Earth and preserve entire species, but in the end you have to give something up to set things right. You can try and spare your own life by wiping out all synthetics, or you can sacrifice yourself for (possibly) a better galatic outcome.

7. Criticism - I find most criticism to be nitpicking, who really cares that you don't have to reload the pistol in the final moments? The story has gotten so much bigger than that gameplay is taking a back seat to narrative now... but I digress. The one stirking criticism is the fate of the Normandy - it makes absolutely no sense, I can swallow my version to a small degree cause neither of my squadmates came out but somehow Ash and EDI got on the ship and they made a FTL jump? No. The logical way to do it was have it crash on Earth (so if you dont save Earth they're dead) and they can still achieve a similar ending without losing much of the very obvious allegory - but I can understand why they decided to create a plothole since the allegory is more obvious on a new uninhabited world than on a smoldering Earth (or maybe they crash in the Amazon where the Reapers haven't been) But again, digression. If you can't get past the Normandy's fate I don't blame you, I can, I appreciate why they went that direction, but I can appreciate why it bothers people. I hope they leave it as is and that brings me to my conclusion.

8. In Conclusion - Its BioWare's story to tell, we play but a role, a role that should not be diminished by the somber end of the series. Yes BioWare says its our tale, and it is, we play the largest role in it and our decisions decide the fate of a galaxy. Anyone who says our choices dont matter is speaking with incredible hyperbole or they've lost sight of what they've accomplished - which I don't blame them... afterall its tough saying goodbye to Shep & Co, especially on such a somber note. As I've stated above there are numerous changes to the galaxy at the end, so many that there is no way they create anything post Shepard without having to ret con things.

All in all I think the series is a landmark in gaming, and one of the most engaging experiences of any medium. I think was incredibly brave and also artistic to break with game expectations and end the experience in a somber manner - yet the higher your GR the more hope you see in the end (and if its low possibly wiping out Earth and giving you fewer final choices). And they also achieved their objective, the end is very memorable and has even sparked intriguing theories on whether or not Shep was indoctrinated and how honest the catalyst is about your final choices.

I am sure I have changed nobody's mind, but with all the negative attention the end got, I wanted to share my approval of the ending. It was powerful, it was emotional, it did this ground breaking series justice. So much that I wish they would leave the IP alone maybe bringing back the trilogy revamped on next generation systems as nothing could possibly take place in that universe of significance that would not diminish Shepard.


I so totally agree with you, it is powerfull and short and that was good.  I also loved the way they handled the illusive man vs. anderson. It all came down to the final choice that conveyd the idea of the entire concept of mass effect. Those last 10 minutes aren't about all the other choices, those were made to get there. Those last ten minutes are about you and your experiences, how you played the game will psychologicaly effect which choice you will make in the end. And keeping the prologue theoretical was a stroke of genius. Most games would hand it to you on a silver platter, bioware made use of their greatest tool as storytellers, our own immagination.

Modifié par Ryokun1989, 17 mars 2012 - 04:14 .


#227
AtlasMickey

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cyrrant wrote...

AtlasMickey wrote...

Most of the backlash seems to be regarding the destruction of the relays, which you astutely recognize as the tools of manipulation by a galactic enemy, so I've written a thread to expand on that point.

http://social.biowar.../index/10088018


Um...no?  If we're going to bother to read all your stuff the least you could do is recognize what we're arguing about.  The backlash involves the entire ending, not just a little bit of it.  The extreme tonal shift from the run to the conduit to actually being on the Citadel, the volumes of unanswered questions dumped on the player within the last 5 minutes and then not wrapped up, the magical teleportation of squad members that were on Earth to the Normandy, and then Joker's seeming desertion of his post as he cuts and runs?  All of these (and more!) have nothing to do with your straw man "everyone's upset about the relays" argument, and they are legit concerns.

Plus, my Shepard would have rejected the Starchild's assertions outright.

If you have to "imagine" things that should have been wrapped up in the story itself, that's not good story writing.

In very short order you deliberately misquote me and consequently troll my response, but I take your grievances with the ending to be legitimately felt, however imperceptive. So, I’ll give your points a quick but nonetheless more considerate response than the one you gave mine.

The “extreme tonal shift” starts because Shepard is dying, not unlike the tonal shift that occurred in the beginning of ME2 when she was blown from the Normandy and left to burn in the atmosphere. When she woke up in Cerberus, was that a dream, or perhaps was she indoctrinated by Cerberus from the start? With all this talk of indoctrination by the Reapers people forget about the possibility of her being a wholly controlled agent of Cerberus. Perhaps we are in no position to know with 100 percent certainty which is true, but there is plenty of evidence to disprove both assertions.

The volume of revealed details are immaterial next to the moral question on the destiny of synthetic and organic life. Do you think synthetic life has rights to life and liberty or that it’s okay to murder and control them? This should inform your decision and whether you consider the ending to be at all edifying.

There’s not suggestion of teleportation. The squad members seem to have retreated, either on orders from Anderson or their own volition, They all said their good-byes to Shepard and made it clear that they did not want to be part of yet another suicide mission.

Joker blamed himself for causing Shepard’s death at the beginning of ME2 because he stayed around when he shouldn’t have. Maybe got a clue, as another member of this forum suggested, and retreated from a situation he deemed impossible to survive through. What would you do if you saw the citadel explode in a giant orb of light? If you were my pilot I’d expect you to get the hell out of there.

Moreover, my thread on the relays is not a straw man. Frankly I just think it’s just more worthy of discussion than some of the points you mentioned.

Modifié par AtlasMickey, 17 mars 2012 - 04:30 .


#228
Klijpope

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Ryokun1989 wrote...

I so totally agree with you, it is powerfull and short and that was good.  I also loved the way they handled the illusive man vs. anderson. It all came down to the final choice that conveyd the idea of the entire concept of mass effect. Those last 10 minutes aren't about all the other choices, those were made to get there. Those last ten minutes are about you and your experiences, how you played the game will psychologicaly effect which choice you will make in the end. And keeping the prologue theoretical was a stroke of genius. Most games would hand it to you on a silver platter, bioware made use of their greatest tool as storytellers, our own immagination.


I agree with a lot of this. Shepard's task is done once the Crucible docks; all the decisions of three games lead to that point. The Choice is a different matter - you are given free will as the player to make the decision, not constrained by your history. The player is left to decide which ending is meaningful for their Shepard.

That could have worked brilliantly, but it happens too abruptly and is confusing and misleading (eg: exploding mass relays, the impression that Shepard just accepts everything). I'm a big fan of terseness, but it still has to make sense of some audience expectations, and that includes making the results of the different choices look distinct from each other.

Modifié par Klijpope, 17 mars 2012 - 04:43 .


#229
Biotic Budah

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Use our imagination? The ending is what we make it in our minds? Your kidding right? Or are we supposed to make our own fan fiction about the ending? This isn't Sesame Street, I ain't Elmo, give me an ending.

#230
acenanx

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Jonttu1 wrote...

acenanx wrote...

Jonttu1 wrote...

Crystal9487 wrote...

.... Maybe I could stand the endings better if it wasn't for one thing....

In the Arrival DLC it's practically said that when the Mass Relays are destroyed they wipe out the system that they are located in....So if someone can explain that to me....

Compare the differences between Arrival ending and Mass Effect 3 ending. In Arrival the whole relay is just smashed into bits with an asteroid which clearly destabilizes the eezo core. However in the ME3 ending the relay overcharges and uses all of it's energy to transmit the crucibles energy and it shuts down. In arrival you can clearly see the eezo core explode and in ME3 it just shuts down, it's gone as the relays framework collapses


- Then what is the shockwave joker/normandy is riding at the end?
- What happend to the gigantic fleet you assembled with slow moving crusers and dreadnoughts?
- Sense normady was at earth orbit at the time, what happend to earth when this mysteries shockwave arrived?
- And what planet did the normady crash on?

1. The signal wave sent forward by the mass relays.
2. I don't know? It's never shown.
3. Just watch the ending? It's the same exact shockwave that hits earth from the crucible.
4. How the hell am I supposed to know? How is that even relevant?



No matter what ending you choose, it always end with normandy nearly destroyd in an mysteries shockwave. so if you choose synthesis or control ending normandy shouldn't de affected by the shockwave sence EDI isen't killed. 

Meaning that this will probably happend to every ship in the fleet and every other ship in the galaxy. . . .  

"- And what planet did the normady crash on?"
What i meant was he dident crash on earth, sence the shockwave enveloped earth pretty fast and if he had to use FTL to escape the shockwave. . . . . Its a big shockwave. But mye guess is that it was 2 shockwaves the crucible and the mass relay explosion.

#231
Rocktel

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boardnfool86 wrote...

I am going to bullet my reason why to make this easier to read...

1. Your Choices Matter - you affect the future of Earth, Krogans, Quarians, Rachni, and Geth DIRECTLY. You shouldn't need reassurance in the final cinematic to learn what you already know... their fates. In many case you have multiple opportunities to doom various species. Also, various crew and former crew's fates are in your hands. Your ability to unite them also plays a role in your final outcome (which I will get to).

But we don't know their fates because of the Relays getting destroyed, which could change everything.

#232
daisekihan

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boardnfool86 wrote...

ImAFckingDragn wrote...

Why is my crew that was on earth and on a strike team with me suddenly on the Normandy? Why is joker running away from a Mass Relay explosion? Where is the rest of the fleet, did they blow up in a Mass Relay explosion? How is the alien fleet going to get home without Mass Relays? Does everyone just live on earth now? How will they eat? Some alien races can't eat human food. Or maybe they're all dead from the Mass Relay blowing up. (The one Joker was running away from.) Shepard united the whole galaxy so he could blow them all up at the end...


So I acknowledged that the Normandy's fate doesn't make much sense, and pointed out it was clearly there as allegory, but something more literal/logical would prob better suit the fan base

As for the rest of the questions, thats up to your imagination - are you pessimistic or optimistic?


Allegory? Are you being serious? Are you really serious? Do you see how completely out of place that would be?

#233
boardnfool86

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daisekihan wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

ImAFckingDragn wrote...

Why is my crew that was on earth and on a strike team with me suddenly on the Normandy? Why is joker running away from a Mass Relay explosion? Where is the rest of the fleet, did they blow up in a Mass Relay explosion? How is the alien fleet going to get home without Mass Relays? Does everyone just live on earth now? How will they eat? Some alien races can't eat human food. Or maybe they're all dead from the Mass Relay blowing up. (The one Joker was running away from.) Shepard united the whole galaxy so he could blow them all up at the end...


So I acknowledged that the Normandy's fate doesn't make much sense, and pointed out it was clearly there as allegory, but something more literal/logical would prob better suit the fan base

As for the rest of the questions, thats up to your imagination - are you pessimistic or optimistic?


Allegory? Are you being serious? Are you really serious? Do you see how completely out of place that would be?


Yeah I am not defending the Normandy part... it bothers me to be honest - I just think the melancholy ending is leading to excessive criticism and saying your decisions have no affect on the outcome is short sided. Also BioWare's reaction suggest they didn't anticipate the negative response which is short sided on THEIR part since people will be bummed just finishing the series, to add to that with a somber ending was undoubtedly going to upset people... that said, I definitely appreciate teh direction they took it, I find it bold, I don't think it was executed as well as it could be but overall I enjoyed it

#234
Twistedfaith

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Yeah, the only "artistic" aspect to the ending, was how well Blue-Green-Red compliment eachother.

Modifié par Twistedfaith, 19 mars 2012 - 04:10 .


#235
TheKingofRedLions

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There is one large inherent flaw with your reasoning - you talk about how our choices did matter, then you state it is all up to interpretation.

Just because you decided in your mind what happened, doesn't mean it did. People are upset because they do not have confirmation about what happened - we literally don't know anything.

Speculation does not lead to closure, which is where the issue lies. If leaving the ending open fit with the series direction, there wouldn't be as much backlash. The ending was chosen to be this way simply to cause the player to speculate, which is a cheap literary device with no payoff.

#236
burke111

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boardnfool86 wrote...

daisekihan wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

ImAFckingDragn wrote...

Why is my crew that was on earth and on a strike team with me suddenly on the Normandy? Why is joker running away from a Mass Relay explosion? Where is the rest of the fleet, did they blow up in a Mass Relay explosion? How is the alien fleet going to get home without Mass Relays? Does everyone just live on earth now? How will they eat? Some alien races can't eat human food. Or maybe they're all dead from the Mass Relay blowing up. (The one Joker was running away from.) Shepard united the whole galaxy so he could blow them all up at the end...


So I acknowledged that the Normandy's fate doesn't make much sense, and pointed out it was clearly there as allegory, but something more literal/logical would prob better suit the fan base

As for the rest of the questions, thats up to your imagination - are you pessimistic or optimistic?


Allegory? Are you being serious? Are you really serious? Do you see how completely out of place that would be?


Yeah I am not defending the Normandy part... it bothers me to be honest - I just think the melancholy ending is leading to excessive criticism and saying your decisions have no affect on the outcome is short sided. Also BioWare's reaction suggest they didn't anticipate the negative response which is short sided on THEIR part since people will be bummed just finishing the series, to add to that with a somber ending was undoubtedly going to upset people... that said, I definitely appreciate teh direction they took it, I find it bold, I don't think it was executed as well as it could be but overall I enjoyed it


Apparently you haven't been paying attention. Our issues have nothing to do with having a sad ending. Most of us expected our Shepard to die. I personally like endings where the hero dies. Your continual assertion that we just want rainbows and butterflies shows that you aren't paying attention to what we are saying.

Also, how is a verbatim ripoff of the Deus Ex ending, bold? With all of the speculation going around about Bioware plants, I have to wonder if you are just trolling.

If that is not the case, and you truly did like the ending. Then I am happy for you. No sarcasm intended. But I, personally, didn't spend over $200 and over 250 hours crafting playthroughs for an unoriginal ending that ignored all of those decisions and left so many questions open. I am a very imaginitive guy, but if I wanted deep philosophical contemplation I would re-read Crime and Punishment or A Tale of Two Cities or countless other novels that take less time to get through, have what can be called downer endings, but still evoke personal exploration without skimping on plot resolution.

Once again, I am glad that you enjoyed the ending, and I respect that you are not being as negative toward us as others have been previously. I hope that this post didn't come off too brutish.

#237
boardnfool86

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burke111 wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

daisekihan wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

ImAFckingDragn wrote...

Why is my crew that was on earth and on a strike team with me suddenly on the Normandy? Why is joker running away from a Mass Relay explosion? Where is the rest of the fleet, did they blow up in a Mass Relay explosion? How is the alien fleet going to get home without Mass Relays? Does everyone just live on earth now? How will they eat? Some alien races can't eat human food. Or maybe they're all dead from the Mass Relay blowing up. (The one Joker was running away from.) Shepard united the whole galaxy so he could blow them all up at the end...


So I acknowledged that the Normandy's fate doesn't make much sense, and pointed out it was clearly there as allegory, but something more literal/logical would prob better suit the fan base

As for the rest of the questions, thats up to your imagination - are you pessimistic or optimistic?


Allegory? Are you being serious? Are you really serious? Do you see how completely out of place that would be?


Yeah I am not defending the Normandy part... it bothers me to be honest - I just think the melancholy ending is leading to excessive criticism and saying your decisions have no affect on the outcome is short sided. Also BioWare's reaction suggest they didn't anticipate the negative response which is short sided on THEIR part since people will be bummed just finishing the series, to add to that with a somber ending was undoubtedly going to upset people... that said, I definitely appreciate teh direction they took it, I find it bold, I don't think it was executed as well as it could be but overall I enjoyed it


Apparently you haven't been paying attention. Our issues have nothing to do with having a sad ending. Most of us expected our Shepard to die. I personally like endings where the hero dies. Your continual assertion that we just want rainbows and butterflies shows that you aren't paying attention to what we are saying.

Also, how is a verbatim ripoff of the Deus Ex ending, bold? With all of the speculation going around about Bioware plants, I have to wonder if you are just trolling.

If that is not the case, and you truly did like the ending. Then I am happy for you. No sarcasm intended. But I, personally, didn't spend over $200 and over 250 hours crafting playthroughs for an unoriginal ending that ignored all of those decisions and left so many questions open. I am a very imaginitive guy, but if I wanted deep philosophical contemplation I would re-read Crime and Punishment or A Tale of Two Cities or countless other novels that take less time to get through, have what can be called downer endings, but still evoke personal exploration without skimping on plot resolution.

Once again, I am glad that you enjoyed the ending, and I respect that you are not being as negative toward us as others have been previously. I hope that this post didn't come off too brutish.


I am no troll - I also read the synopsis of Deus Ex and find the endings quite different outside of HAVING 3 choices but those 3 choices are different. Though I never played the game so you can take that opinion of mine with a grain of salt.

So rather than try and formulate more of a rebuttal based on assumptions i've made because of others opinions, feel free to message me exactly how you think the ending fell short. I assume its rainbows and butterflies because most people's complaints sound like that (not all, as yours does not - and a screenwriter also made a strong argument base on storytelling merits) but the 'best' ending people post is always one where shep lives, and everyone talks about the destruction of the relays, so I just assume it wasnt a happy enough endings for folks - which i get, this isnt a movie or a book, but an interactive piece of storytelling 150 hours+ in the making... a much larger emotional commitment to one of the most engaging stories this medium has to offer. But again, feel free to message me, it'll be hard to keep track of your posts on this enormous thread and I'd love to hear more of your opinion.

#238
boardnfool86

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TheKingofRedLions wrote...

There is one large inherent flaw with your reasoning - you talk about how our choices did matter, then you state it is all up to interpretation.

Just because you decided in your mind what happened, doesn't mean it did. People are upset because they do not have confirmation about what happened - we literally don't know anything.

Speculation does not lead to closure, which is where the issue lies. If leaving the ending open fit with the series direction, there wouldn't be as much backlash. The ending was chosen to be this way simply to cause the player to speculate, which is a cheap literary device with no payoff.


Specifically the aftermath. You directly get to see the fate of the Rachni, Geth, Rannoch, Earth and more... there is just no epilogue to sum it all up.

Not all stories have the closure fans are looking for. Not even all good ones.