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[Excalibur5033]

The term Endor Holocaust these days refers more to the fact that something with a mass of several billion tons isn't going to just go away without causing massive collateral damage. All that debris isn't going to stay in orbit. Earth is boned.

[augustburnt]

boardnfool86 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

Oh and as far as where is this person, how'd these people make it, what are they eating type questions... Shep's story is over, the future has yet to be realized. Mass Effect is about savig the Galaxy the aftermath is up to you.

Except we didn't save the galaxy. We doomed it.

Says who? You eliminated the immediate Reaper threat, after that is your own interpretation - I believe the Galaxy was saved by my Shep

So you're mentally rewriting it to no longer include the destruction of the mass relay system? Can't say I blame you.

The Galaxy survived just fine BEFORE the Relays came along. They will survive this.

Thank you - why do people think the mass relays are neccessary for survival?

Yea, galatic trade isnt anything important, you know, its not like the wellfare of every race relied on it.

[GreyhameBioware]

Hammer6767 wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...

Aren't biotics "space magic"???  Just saying...

Biotics are actually explained within the confines of the setting.

Semantics...it is all space magic.  That is a horrible phrase to use in a sci fi game where most of the stuff is made up.

Pretty much every sci-fi univsers has this, and as long as they stay consistent with themselves then it's all good.  The stuff in the synthesis ending at the very least is space magic because it's not consistent with the rest of the universe.

[Vizanz]

I like how at the end my paragon Shepard destroys the whole universe as shown on the galaxy map when the mass relays are exploding in massive series of explosions.

Nothing quite like fighting for 3 games just to wipe out the universe ! :>

[JPR1964]

Sure, Space Magic is brilliant...

Mutli colored and so...

JPR out!

[boardnfool86]

Hammer6767 wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

Again, hyperbole

Not really.

What is the catalyst? If it has always existed, and controlled the Reapers. What was the point of the Keepers? Why doesn't it just summon the Reapers itself? 

How is the Illusive Man controlling Anderson and Shepard? 

Did the relays blowing up really destroy the galaxy? 

Why is there space magic?

And so and so on.

1. you said a billion... so yes, hyperbolic
2. when is fiction ever responsible for explaining the hows and whys of EVERYTHING... the illusive man was largely reaper tech that much was explained, the catalyst cant interact with the physical world, also stated... if thats not enough for you, ok, but they arent plotholes... and questions about the aftermath are also not plotholes, thats for your imagination

Keep it up, man.  I don't necessarily agree that the ending was great (I actually think Shep was hallucinating or indoctrinated, but regardless), but with all the negativity and people jumping off bridges, it is good to see someone talking up the other side.

thanks, i really liked the ending, i think some criticisms are valid (particularly the overly allegorical normandy fate) but still, even liked that and I just feel that the criticism has snowballed to the point where its no longer fair and its more of a hate (or strongly dislike) fest

[The Night Mammoth]

boardnfool86 wrote...

I am going to bullet my reason why to make this easier to read...

1. Your Choices Matter - you affect the future of Earth, Krogans, Quarians, Rachni, and Geth DIRECTLY. You shouldn't need reassurance in the final cinematic to learn what you already know... their fates. In many case you have multiple opportunities to doom various species. Also, various crew and former crew's fates are in your hands. Your ability to unite them also plays a role in your final outcome (which I will get to).

Correct. Until you destroy the Mass Relays, invalidating pretty much every conflict you resolved throughout the game. 

2. The Illusive Man - Shepard's final speech check... can you get the most stubborn, often times vile being int he galaxy to see the error in his ways?

You did the same with Saren, it's not new, and a good part about the ending. 

3. Admiral Anderson - Your father figure, and longtime backer, save his life (however briefly) and get a touching moment that had to have a profound impact on Shep and I found my heart aching as I watched (leaving the full dialog would prob help mroe people feel its gravity - but playing through the entire series recently made it a powerful moment for me)

A small momenent of sense in a sea of nonsensical BS. 

4a. The Final Choice is Epic (Destroy) - Is your Shep so overcome with grief, and driven by a hatred for the Reapers that they wipe out all synthetic life including the Geth which Legion sacrificed himself for and whom EDI has recently discovered her humanity? Or maybe those are non factors cause you dont care for EDI and wiped out the Geth... maybe Legion was sold to Cerberus so you never even knew the other side to the Geth... all of that is based on your choice.

Epic is the most missused term in the history of language. 

Aside, this is a good part about the ending. It's a very interesting and difficult choice, end the cycle forever at the cost of the Geth and EDI. It's implementation is horrid though. 

4b. The Final Choice is Epic (Control) - Do you finally see what the Illusive Man was after? Or maybe you can't let all synthetic life die so you can (maybe) live. Maybe you think you can do better... whatever the reason you take CONTROL of the Reapers and replace the Catalyst as the driving force behind the Reapers... then again maybe you offer organics (and synthetics alike) only a brief reprieve.

Again, a good part. You can stop this cycle, perhaps only temporarily, save everyone, but at the cost of Shepard's life. As above, its implementation is shockingly bad, there's needs to be a whole lot more explanation and consequence for it to work.

4c. The Final Choice is Epic (Synthesis) - Or maybe you just want peace, and have come to see the other side of the synthetic coin. Maybe you realize that EVERYONE has been wrong... or that the Reapers/Catalyst/Saren/IM had some valid points but were going about it the wrong way. You realize that organics want to live, but that synthetic is not the next step to evolution but a peripheral one. So you sacrifice yourself, your essence, maybe your soul? (not religious but I am not the God of this fiction) to bring peace and prosperity to the Galaxy.

The synthesis ending is utter bs. The other two strike a fine balance but this one is just out of place and makes no sense. 

5. Relays Had to Go - The Mass Relays are part of the architecture meant to wipe out advanced organic life, a framework set up by those you are out to supplant... and they are the delivery system of your retribution, YOUR solution.

With the Reapers gone, their purpose no longer matters. Destroying them makes literally zero sense.

6. Sacrifice - The end brings about the meaning of the word. Your hard work was not for naught, you can save Earth and preserve entire species, but in the end you have to give something up to set things right. You can try and spare your own life by wiping out all synthetics, or you can sacrifice yourself for (possibly) a better galatic outcome.

Correct, but with the Relays destroyed your sacrifice means little. Most people are going to die, most people may already be dead if the Relays went supernova. 

7. Criticism - I find most criticism to be nitpicking, who really cares that you don't have to reload the pistol in the final moments? The story has gotten so much bigger than that gameplay is taking a back seat to narrative now... but I digress.

Most? Come on, I think you're at least having a decent go of things, but saying that strikes me as odd after reading the other parts of your post. 

8. In Conclusion - Its BioWare's story to tell, we play but a role, a role that should not be diminished by the somber end of the series. Yes BioWare says its our tale, and it is, we play the largest role in it and our decisions decide the fate of a galaxy. Anyone who says our choices dont matter is speaking with incredible hyperbole or they've lost sight of what they've accomplished - which I don't blame them... afterall its tough saying goodbye to Shep & Co, especially on such a somber note. As I've stated above there are numerous changes to the galaxy at the end, so many that there is no way they create anything post Shepard without having to ret con things.

They did. 

Until the Mass Relays were destroyed. 

[nicksmi56]

No. Just no. It doesn't make sense (especially synthesis). Too many plot holes. Your choices don't matter. Just because I solved things in game doesn't mean things won't change once the war is over. Relays blowing up kills everyone (Arrival). My teammates abandoned me at the final battle for no freaking reason. No matter how you try and spin it, the fact is that Bioware contradicted their own lore and pretty much killed the character of all my squadmates at the same time.

[zherok]

Hammer6767 wrote...

Semantics...it is all space magic.  That is a horrible phrase to use in a sci fi game where most of the stuff is made up.

The space magic the very title of the series takes itself from isn't quite the same as a free pass to hand wave anything that happens at the end of the game. Its a matter of consistency.

I mean, there's a reason why "a wizard did it" is a joke. There's a reason the game explains things with technobabble. If you're not going to at least internalize it, you're just being lazy.

[augustburnt]

Hammer6767 wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...

Aren't biotics "space magic"???  Just saying...

Biotics are actually explained within the confines of the setting.

Semantics...it is all space magic.  That is a horrible phrase to use in a sci fi game where most of the stuff is made up.

It amazes me that the only people who defend the ending are people that dont know **** about the mass effect universe.... actually nm, it makes sense now

[boardnfool86]

Vizanz wrote...

I like how at the end my paragon Shepard destroys the whole universe as shown on the galaxy map when the mass relays are exploding in massive series of explosions.

Nothing quite like fighting for 3 games just to wipe out the universe ! :>

I think the brief epilogue is pretty clear that the universe is fine... there is a difference between dismantling a bomb and detonating one - because destroying a mass relay though physical force creates a supernova does not mean the technology the created then can't destroy them (relatively) safely

[shamE12]

 

boardnfool86 wrote...

Camronnba wrote...
Plotholes bro. You may like the ending but regardless of that fact, you can't ignore that if this ending is to be taken at face value, it invalidates much of what we did and were told in the previous 2.9 games.

How? I just gave a longwinded (thanks for reading) spiel on why our decisions mattered, how come you don't think they did?

Because no matter what you did in the game it doesn't count in the end. You get 3 endings with different colors. Everyone is going to have the same ending despite everything in the game, paragon or renegade its all the same and it shouldn't be that way. Also if you take into account how the ending contradicts itself countless times.

1.Why did the normandy abandon shepard and leave the battle through the mass relays. Over the course of the games its made apparent that shepards squad would gladly die for him.

2. When the normandy clash landed on the tropical planet why didn't joker break any bones. In the beginning of the second game shepard nearly breaks jokers arm getting him out of his chair yet a crash landing from orbit to ground leaves him and the crew un scrachted.

3. When  the god kid talks to shepard about the controlling the reaper choice saying it didn't work for TIM and said "we had him under control the whole time" then why did the reapers attack sanctuary to stop him from figuring out the indoctrination process.

4. Why would the game end on the note that every ship from pretty much every fleet in the galaxy is now stranded on earth.....

5. Why is the god childs method of keeping organics and synthetics peace is by using synthetics to kill everyone.....

Modifié par shamE12, 16 mars 2012 - 11:16 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Excalibur5033 wrote...

The term Endor Holocaust these days refers more to the fact that something with a mass of several billion tons isn't going to just go away without causing massive collateral damage. All that debris isn't going to stay in orbit. Earth is boned.

Fleets may still be there so just nudge the rubble into the sun.

[Turtlicious]

inb4Astroturfing.

[augustburnt]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Excalibur5033 wrote...

The term Endor Holocaust these days refers more to the fact that something with a mass of several billion tons isn't going to just go away without causing massive collateral damage. All that debris isn't going to stay in orbit. Earth is boned.

Fleets may still be there so just nudge the rubble into the sun.

Nudge... billions of tons... what?

[HrznKn]

boardnfool86 wrote...

HrznKn wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

I am going to bullet my reason why to make this easier to read...

1. Your Choices Matter - you affect the future of Earth, Krogans, Quarians, Rachni, and Geth DIRECTLY. You shouldn't need reassurance in the final cinematic to learn what you already know... their fates. In many case you have multiple opportunities to doom various species. Also, various crew and former crew's fates are in your hands. Your ability to unite them also plays a role in your final outcome (which I will get to).

Exept they don't , in the end you're stuck with the 3 options given to you by the reaper god child, 3 same choices regardless of your moral alignment and  decisions you made to get to that point. Choices that you must accept even though none of them fit with anything  Shepard would ever have done at any earlier point in the entire trilogy.

3 choices in how you dispatch the Reapers - whether or not you get all 3 is up to your choices, as are the fates of Earth, Rannoch, the Geth, EDI... on and on

all the choices matter, why they need to be summed up for the final
decision makes no sense. The rachni contribute to GR but how else would
they affect how you use the Crucible

And the way GR is linked to what options are presented by the god child makes sense in your opinion?
How the hell does your military strength affect the capabilities of the crucible?

They could have easily made it so the GR affects how well the fleets - you know, the forces you spent the whole game collecting?- perform in holding off the reapers while you prep the super weapon.

[Spikko]

I can't agree more with OP. Well said.

[boardnfool86]

augustburnt wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...

Aren't biotics "space magic"???  Just saying...

Biotics are actually explained within the confines of the setting.

Semantics...it is all space magic.  That is a horrible phrase to use in a sci fi game where most of the stuff is made up.

It amazes me that the only people who defend the ending are people that dont know **** about the mass effect universe.... actually nm, it makes sense now

please clarify - I think everything is adequately explained (minue Normandy fate)

[Dragoonlordz]

augustburnt wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...

Aren't biotics "space magic"???  Just saying...

Biotics are actually explained within the confines of the setting.

Semantics...it is all space magic.  That is a horrible phrase to use in a sci fi game where most of the stuff is made up.

It amazes me that the only people who defend the ending are people that dont know **** about the mass effect universe.... actually nm, it makes sense now

Then you would be wrong in making such assumptions.

[augustburnt]

boardnfool86 wrote...

Vizanz wrote...

I like how at the end my paragon Shepard destroys the whole universe as shown on the galaxy map when the mass relays are exploding in massive series of explosions.

Nothing quite like fighting for 3 games just to wipe out the universe ! :>

I think the brief epilogue is pretty clear that the universe is fine... there is a difference between dismantling a bomb and detonating one - because destroying a mass relay though physical force creates a supernova does not mean the technology the created then can't destroy them (relatively) safely

Eezo and the citadel falling on earth, the quarians going extinct due to starvation, palavan burning and nobody there to help rebuild, Galactic trade gone, great ending. 

[kyban]

boardnfool86 wrote...

kyban wrote...

jess05 wrote...

The rational explaination for the ending is this.

Use your imagination, it can be what you want it to be.
Buy DLC.


Thats what we got for our $60 bare minimum investment.


I truly hate to admit it .. but thats whatt really happened here.

Pretty much this. Hate to admit it too.

No, same statement they make in all their games upon completion - you can play DLC from the post game screen ie no need for a new playthrough (since DLC will take place BEFORE the finale)

I hope that the DLC before the Finale is Shepard snapping out of indocrination.

[RShara]

Arppis wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

Oh and as far as where is this person, how'd these people make it, what are they eating type questions... Shep's story is over, the future has yet to be realized. Mass Effect is about savig the Galaxy the aftermath is up to you.

Except we didn't save the galaxy. We doomed it.

Bullcrap. There was no explosions or anything. Planets have come by without mass relays just fine in modern era. Life always finds a way.

There are explosions.  There are lots of explosions.  Watch the pretty colors again.  You see first the edge relay (which, btw, I don't think is the SOL relay?) send out beams of brightly colored lights, and then a huge burst of energy.  Which, btw seems to be around the size of the entire cluster representation.  Even if it wasn't "destructive" energy, that kind of thing isn't usually very good for you. 
No, I have no proof that it's not good for you.  But you don't have proof that it IS.

And there are definite space booms (in space).

Where is your proof that planets have come by without mass relays just fine in modern times?  Name a race that gets by without the relays on a regular basis?  One that travels in space, mind you.

Okay, sorry.  Your opinion is very valid. If this were one of several endings, I would have found it very moving and awesome, if rather incomplete.   The music score is very well done, and seeing some of the fruits of your labor was fulfilling in its own way.

I also have no problem with things being left open to interpretations.  I actuallly love books that make me think.

However, Mass Effect's theme, and the promises of the devs, have left us to expect something different.  We wanted a real answer.  Does Shepard live?  A half-breath of N7 armor doesn't really answer that question.
Do the krogans, the turians, and the salarians manage to find peace with each other?  And numerous other questions that others have posted, so I won't bother repeating.

Additionally, the ONLY thing that mattered when determining what choices you did have--whether Earth blew up, etc etc-- are determined by your EMS, NOT your decisions from this game or previous games.

You'd think blowing up the Collector Base would have made a big diff.  Eh, I got over 7000 EMS without it.

You'd think agreeing with Cerberus in 2 would have made TIM more willing to listen to your stance on the Reapers.  Nope.

Is the Starchild really telling the truth?  Where did he come from?  Why do we have to take his word that something is true and must happen, with no proof, and certainly no foundation of trust?  Why are we believing him about synthetics vs organics when all of our experience thus far contradicts this?  Why are the Reapers, who are synthetic or at most synthetic/organic, trying to "preserve" organic life?  How does taking away everything's free will constitute "saving them?

So an ending that simultaneously encourages you to THINK about it, also presents you with a lot of logical fallacies that completely short circuit the THINKING process.

This is the problem most people are having with this ending.

That and BW being EXTREMELY CHEAP on doing nothing but color shifting the same cutscene with minute changes.  I could do the same in After Effects in a few hours.

Show us Earth being rebuilt.  Struts rising toward the sky.
Show us construction crews working together, and quarians making their liveship technology available to the turians so that they don't starve.

Yes I want BW to SHOW ME this, because that's what they SAID they would do, and because THINKING it just leads to a headache since a lot of the lines of thought make no sense.

[Kloborgg711]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Excalibur5033 wrote...

The term Endor Holocaust these days refers more to the fact that something with a mass of several billion tons isn't going to just go away without causing massive collateral damage. All that debris isn't going to stay in orbit. Earth is boned.

Fleets may still be there so just nudge the rubble into the sun.

Lol'd.

[Justicar-Ilua]

They would've been adequate endings for a stand-alone game, but not one with a trilogy's worth of lore to destroy with potholes and sloppy plot devices.