237 réponses à ce sujet

[novaseeker]

Turtlicious wrote...

inb4Astroturfing.

Precisely.

[Vizanz]

"Oh but we knew there would be casualties" is a pretty poor defence for causing genocide.

[GreyhameBioware]

boardnfool86 wrote...

Vizanz wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

Vizanz wrote...

I like how at the end my paragon Shepard destroys the whole universe as shown on the galaxy map when the mass relays are exploding in massive series of explosions.

Nothing quite like fighting for 3 games just to wipe out the universe ! :>

I think the brief epilogue is pretty clear that the universe is fine... there is a difference between dismantling a bomb and detonating one - because destroying a mass relay though physical force creates a supernova does not mean the technology the created then can't destroy them (relatively) safely

So for your arguments sake lets say the mass effect relays are destroyed safely. 

Let's put this in context. The world is now a highly globalised economy, based on technology, entire countries now focus on specific industries and require services from outside their borders in order to survive.

Imagine that suddenly the worlds entire transport system was removed, no planes, boats or otherwise, no way of reaching certain nations. There would be a few billion lives lost within weeks.

Now lets imagine this on a universe scale... entire systems of planets would be cut off from outside supply, which would result in countless BILLIONS of casualtys. A lot of the homeworlds have little to no food production and limited resources, this information is in the planet info when you do scanning.

Even if people were somehow magically able to survive the explosions which had been set up as galaxy destroying in Arrival. You would cause GENOCIDE on  massive scale. 

Fans of Dan Simmons (of Hyperion Fame) will know the consequences because a very similar thing happens when they do the same thing.

I said the universe was fine not every planet... remote colonies dependent on import for survival are hosed... I believe Garrus says something about this earlier in the game... 

The universe would have been fine with the Repers winning as well.

[Dragoonlordz]

Sparatus wrote...

It seemed pretty clear that the relays exploded like they did in Arrival. Shepard just murdered the entire galaxy.

To me it sounds like your using your imagination to come to that theory. Something many here are hating others for doing in the first place. I'm beginning to think they should of just done a fade to black screen moment you die with nothing after because the game is played through the role of the character which separates it from god games like populus. Why would you know anything which happened to everyone else if your playing the role of your character and you character is dead. Pretty sure I don't know what a person down the street is doing when I am not present. 

Ofcourse people will say it's a game therefore it is not supposed to mimic real life, it is ironic in the sense then that given it is not real why people are trying to push real life scenarios on a work of fiction in first place. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 mars 2012 - 11:34 .

[GreyhameBioware]

boardnfool86 wrote...

GreyhameBioware wrote...

I don't know if the people who think that life will go on fine whtout the relays understands exaclt how important the relays were.

Imagine modern day Earth completely loosing all forms of transportation other than horse and buggy, and sailing ships. Everything else can stay, like the Internet and such, but the worlds economy would completely collapse. There would be many years of hardship, many people will die. Sure eventually life would go on, but it would certainly not be pretty for a long time. Doesn't matter that you can still travel other places since it takes too long for the type of society we are.

That is what we doomed the Mass Effect universe to by destroying the relays. We destroyed galactic civilization instead of the Reapers. We didn't do it in the same way, and the species will probably go on if their planets can survive well enough.

Yes, more people will die, but the galaxy as a whole is saved. Depending on your choices, many other species too... just because the galaxy is saved doesn;t mean the days ahead are easy... when is the aftermath of a major conflict ever easy?

But I didn't save the galaxy.  I stopped the cycles, but the galaxy is still screwed.

[boardnfool86]

ket_shee wrote...

@OP

Glad you liked it, but you also have to recognize other peoples opinions as well. I'd advise against trying persuasion tactics on their interpretations and to those who hated the ending, don't do the same. In all sincerity, really, I'm happy you enjoyed the ending. One less person dissatisfied in the world makes it better.

As for my opinion, as it is a discussion thread, here is why I don't like the ending.

1. Feels Rushed - Immediately after being elevated to the Starchild, I can not shake the feeling that the rest of the ending sequence was done in a last minute rush. As if the deadline could no longer be pushed back, hence the lack of USUAL investigate options and explanatory dialogue.

2. Feels Reiterated - The ending cinematics look far too similar to give me that 'wildly distinctive ending' feel that was advertised so frequently. I'm not sure if it was budget cuts, artistic expression, or what-have-you, but it simply looked lazy.

3. Feels Out of Place - Starchild was pulled outta left field, IMO. To believe there is a definitive force to the Reapers seems to undermine how the entire series built up to there being sentient and advance AI wiping out civilizations every 50k+ years.

4. Philosophical, sure, but fell short - I get the philosophy behind it. The bigger picture, a galactic salvation, at the cost of a hero's life. It feels like a philosophical statement trying to be forced through, but not quite making it. There is a difference between BEING philosophical and TRYING to be philosophical, and unfortunately the ending didn't live up to being so. Bastion and Braid had endings that were deep and philosophical, but with themes to play off like Organics vs Synthetics and Galactic Salvation, it simply wasn't carried out well enough.

And therein lies the core of my issues with the ending. It wasn't good enough when put into context with the rest of the Game, as well as the series. Throughout a 5 year span of Mass Effect, Bioware had structured a game universe of Hollywood proportions, topped off with a Great Value Wal-Mart ending. I had honestly felt Bioware thought we deserved more.

But, like I said, and I am serious, I'm glad someone walked away happy.

Thats fair

with 1. they actually cut a lot out to make it more ambiguous, with 2. the climax is firing the Crucible - I dont know how much they coudl change, with 3. I guess I always felt the Reapers came from somewhere and was expecting that all along... but with 4... thats valid and I think thats a totally fair assessment on your part... maybe my expecation of an offbeat/somber/philisophical ending from a  video game is lower - my appreciation for not going the everyone lives happily ever after has me overlooking that I would prob not like the ending as much from cinema - but maybe I would. Hard to tell, big differnce between a Sci Fi VG and a movie like Incendies

[NormanRawn]

boardnfool86 wrote...

GreyhameBioware wrote...

I don't know if the people who think that life will go on fine whtout the relays understands exaclt how important the relays were.

Imagine modern day Earth completely loosing all forms of transportation other than horse and buggy, and sailing ships. Everything else can stay, like the Internet and such, but the worlds economy would completely collapse. There would be many years of hardship, many people will die. Sure eventually life would go on, but it would certainly not be pretty for a long time. Doesn't matter that you can still travel other places since it takes too long for the type of society we are.

That is what we doomed the Mass Effect universe to by destroying the relays. We destroyed galactic civilization instead of the Reapers. We didn't do it in the same way, and the species will probably go on if their planets can survive well enough.

Yes, more people will die, but the galaxy as a whole is saved. Depending on your choices, many other species too... just because the galaxy is saved doesn;t mean the days ahead are easy... when is the aftermath of a major conflict ever easy?

Not only will it be difficult, but you will reignite old conflicts between races and start new ones, all in the name of saving as many of your people as you can. Imagine races killing eachother over FTL fuel, so they can try to make it home in a few decades.

This is what many of us are imaging after the credits roll, and it is not the universe we wanted to imagine after the Reaper threat was gone.

I understand we needed to make sacrifices to survive, but in many of the fans opinions, the sacrifice was to great.

[NormanRawn]

NormanRawn wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

GreyhameBioware wrote...

I don't know if the people who think that life will go on fine whtout the relays understands exaclt how important the relays were.

Imagine modern day Earth completely loosing all forms of transportation other than horse and buggy, and sailing ships. Everything else can stay, like the Internet and such, but the worlds economy would completely collapse. There would be many years of hardship, many people will die. Sure eventually life would go on, but it would certainly not be pretty for a long time. Doesn't matter that you can still travel other places since it takes too long for the type of society we are.

That is what we doomed the Mass Effect universe to by destroying the relays. We destroyed galactic civilization instead of the Reapers. We didn't do it in the same way, and the species will probably go on if their planets can survive well enough.

Yes, more people will die, but the galaxy as a whole is saved. Depending on your choices, many other species too... just because the galaxy is saved doesn;t mean the days ahead are easy... when is the aftermath of a major conflict ever easy?

Not only will it be difficult, but you will reignite old conflicts between races and start new ones, all in the name of saving as many of your people as you can. Imagine races killing eachother over FTL fuel, so they can try to make it home in a few decades.

This is what many of us are imaging after the credits roll, and it is not the universe we wanted to imagine after the Reaper threat was gone.

I understand we needed to make sacrifices to survive, but in many of the fans minds, the sacrifice was to great.

[boardnfool86]

GreyhameBioware wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

GreyhameBioware wrote...

I don't know if the people who think that life will go on fine whtout the relays understands exaclt how important the relays were.

Imagine modern day Earth completely loosing all forms of transportation other than horse and buggy, and sailing ships. Everything else can stay, like the Internet and such, but the worlds economy would completely collapse. There would be many years of hardship, many people will die. Sure eventually life would go on, but it would certainly not be pretty for a long time. Doesn't matter that you can still travel other places since it takes too long for the type of society we are.

That is what we doomed the Mass Effect universe to by destroying the relays. We destroyed galactic civilization instead of the Reapers. We didn't do it in the same way, and the species will probably go on if their planets can survive well enough.

Yes, more people will die, but the galaxy as a whole is saved. Depending on your choices, many other species too... just because the galaxy is saved doesn;t mean the days ahead are easy... when is the aftermath of a major conflict ever easy?

But I didn't save the galaxy.  I stopped the cycles, but the galaxy is still screwed.

I would say the galaxy is in some ways better off than before Shep, and in many ways worse off than pre-Reaper, but I would argue that down the road the galaxy will be better off than ever before due to choices you made (and then again maybe not depending on other choices)

[NormanRawn]

NormanRawn wrote...

NormanRawn wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

GreyhameBioware wrote...

I don't know if the people who think that life will go on fine whtout the relays understands exaclt how important the relays were.

Imagine modern day Earth completely loosing all forms of transportation other than horse and buggy, and sailing ships. Everything else can stay, like the Internet and such, but the worlds economy would completely collapse. There would be many years of hardship, many people will die. Sure eventually life would go on, but it would certainly not be pretty for a long time. Doesn't matter that you can still travel other places since it takes too long for the type of society we are.

That is what we doomed the Mass Effect universe to by destroying the relays. We destroyed galactic civilization instead of the Reapers. We didn't do it in the same way, and the species will probably go on if their planets can survive well enough.

Yes, more people will die, but the galaxy as a whole is saved. Depending on your choices, many other species too... just because the galaxy is saved doesn;t mean the days ahead are easy... when is the aftermath of a major conflict ever easy?

Not only will it be difficult, but you will reignite old conflicts between races and start new ones, all in the name of saving as many of your people as you can. Imagine races killing eachother over FTL fuel, so they can try to make it home in a few decades.

This is what many of us are imaging after the credits roll, and it is not the universe we wanted to imagine after the Reaper threat was gone.

I understand we needed to make sacrifices to survive, but in many of the fans minds, the sacrifice was far too great.

[Turran]

You are alright not knowing what happens?

You are alright not knowing the fate of your crew? With what happens to the worlds?


What is the Catalyst, is it an AI a VI or something more? Who made the Catalyst, who made the first Reaper? Who was the first Reaper? Why was Harbinger used in ME2, what importance is he from the rest?


How come Anderson 'follows' you up into the Citadel, but beats you to the console, when there was clearly only 1 way to that console? Where does the Illusive Man come from? Why didn't he take control sooner?


Why was some of my crew magically transported to the ship? Why was the Normandy going anywhere anyway?
Why can Shepard breathe on the outer Citadel? What happens to the Krogan, after curing the Genophage nearly all Male Krogan would be out fighting the Reapers on various planets/locations, was me curing it for nothing?
Did Palavan make it? Was it as badly destroyed as Earth, worse? Was it retaken?


Did the Salarians ever make peace with the Krogan? Did the Geth truely 'die', was helping make the peace between them and the Quarians worthless?
Why was Shepard alive at the ending of Destroy but none others? Why wasn't this scene on the Citadel but on Earth?

Was the Prothean Scientists stopping a message sent from the Catalyst, to the Keepers to bring about the Reapers in ME1? If so, how did they not manage to figure out that the Catalyst was on the Citadel all along? Why was it so long winded, why didn't the Catalyst simply control the Citadel?


What was the point of trying to build a Human Reaper in ME2? What is the purpose of the Catalyst? Why is the Catalyst an image of the child haunting Shepard? Why do we not have contact with Harbinger as much?


Why if Prothean Scientists got to the Citadel AFTER the Reapers retreated back to Dark Space, did they not leave a much clearer message on the Citadel before they died?

See? Just a few questions left un-answered at the end, and a lot of them caused by the ending itself.
..Well they are my problems with it anyway, and the fact we actually don't see the fate of the Galaxy,if it had shown the impacts, showing different results on different planets due to your decisions through all 3 games, it would of been much more accepted. Not entirely, but it would of helped.

Modifié par Turran, 16 mars 2012 - 11:38 .

[Hellknites]

Some people don't get it. If you have to make up most of the ending, its not a very good ending.

I assume bioware was simply trying to cut corners in order to meet deadlines or (hopefully) made it so that they could expand on it later, rather than actually believing that not properly concluding a series that was supposed to be ended with closure was going to be a move that went down with fans.

[boardnfool86]

NormanRawn wrote...

NormanRawn wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

GreyhameBioware wrote...

I don't know if the people who think that life will go on fine whtout the relays understands exaclt how important the relays were.

Imagine modern day Earth completely loosing all forms of transportation other than horse and buggy, and sailing ships. Everything else can stay, like the Internet and such, but the worlds economy would completely collapse. There would be many years of hardship, many people will die. Sure eventually life would go on, but it would certainly not be pretty for a long time. Doesn't matter that you can still travel other places since it takes too long for the type of society we are.

That is what we doomed the Mass Effect universe to by destroying the relays. We destroyed galactic civilization instead of the Reapers. We didn't do it in the same way, and the species will probably go on if their planets can survive well enough.

Yes, more people will die, but the galaxy as a whole is saved. Depending on your choices, many other species too... just because the galaxy is saved doesn;t mean the days ahead are easy... when is the aftermath of a major conflict ever easy?

Not only will it be difficult, but you will reignite old conflicts between races and start new ones, all in the name of saving as many of your people as you can. Imagine races killing eachother over FTL fuel, so they can try to make it home in a few decades.

This is what many of us are imaging after the credits roll, and it is not the universe we wanted to imagine after the Reaper threat was gone.

I understand we needed to make sacrifices to survive, but in many of the fans minds, the sacrifice was to great.

greater than total annihilation?

[zherok]

boardnfool86 wrote...

Actually its stated that population centers have the worst of it, the rural, even some suburban areas should be fine

Also who says those ships cant come down from orbit? maybe they cant that shockwave messes up technology - particularly the renegade option... but the cycle isn't WIPED out

Galactic civilization as it exists in this cycle is done for. Even were it to rebuild, connecting to one another again and actually rebuilding the relays would definitely take longer than anyone currently living would ever manage to see themselves. The species that comprise it are not neceesarily doomed, though what you know of the fate of several of them does not bode well. Again, Quarians after just retaking Ranoch will never likely see it again (the local Cluster and Ranoch are particularly far apart from one another.)

The fate of Earth is left to speculation. The fact that the ships are in orbit isn't even the focus here. It's the fact that they're stuck in or near Sol in the first place. There's nothing to suggest that Earth, the second civilization to be hit (after the Batorians) and the longest occupied is in a position to sustain the combined military might of the galaxy.

The ending doesn't necessarily undo what you've done throughout the game. But it works hard to eliminate much of the context that makes doing them important.

[MisterNugNug]

boardnfool86 wrote...

Thats fair

with 1. they actually cut a lot out to make it more ambiguous, with 2. the climax is firing the Crucible - I dont know how much they coudl change, with 3. I guess I always felt the Reapers came from somewhere and was expecting that all along... but with 4... thats valid and I think thats a totally fair assessment on your part... maybe my expecation of an offbeat/somber/philisophical ending from a  video game is lower - my appreciation for not going the everyone lives happily ever after has me overlooking that I would prob not like the ending as much from cinema - but maybe I would. Hard to tell, big differnce between a Sci Fi VG and a movie like Incendies

Just curious, if Bioware makes an official announcement for ending DLC, what would your reaction/opinion be?  Like what if they took up the Indoctrination Theory and that entire end sequence in the game wasn't real?  What would your opinion be?  You think the original endings we have are good/brilliant right?  

[NormanRawn]

That might still very well happen, that's how bleak the galaxy's situation is after the war. And you have to realize this was in BioWare's power to write something that didn't leave the fans wondering how bad this galaxy could get.

[Dragoonlordz]

Hellknites wrote...

Some people don't get it. If you have to make up most of the ending, its not a very good ending.

I assume bioware was simply trying to cut corners in order to meet deadlines or (hopefully) made it so that they could expand on it later, rather than actually believing that not properly concluding a series that was supposed to be ended with closure was going to be a move that went down with fans.

Closure is subjective though. Possibilities for expanding on context which gives closure is infinite. 

There is also the element of there was closure, your dead and it does not get more final than that.

[Pelle6666]

You've not understood the ending at all. The consequence of the destruction of the mass relays would be catastrophic to the entire galaxy. the only way that the settings of the ending could have been good is if there had been an option where Shepard tells the Catalyst that it's full of ****! Synthetic life doesn't have an urge to kill all organic life, the geth is actually fighting along you're side if you made that choice!
The ending of ME3 does not have enough options and it does not let me choose the end that would have fitted my story. That is the main reason why it sucks!
And then we have the Normandy's crash scene, but I don't even want to think about that screw up, that's a true betrayal worthy of Judas of the characters that we all have come to love.

[Dragoonlordz]

MisterNugNug wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

Thats fair

with 1. they actually cut a lot out to make it more ambiguous, with 2. the climax is firing the Crucible - I dont know how much they coudl change, with 3. I guess I always felt the Reapers came from somewhere and was expecting that all along... but with 4... thats valid and I think thats a totally fair assessment on your part... maybe my expecation of an offbeat/somber/philisophical ending from a  video game is lower - my appreciation for not going the everyone lives happily ever after has me overlooking that I would prob not like the ending as much from cinema - but maybe I would. Hard to tell, big differnce between a Sci Fi VG and a movie like Incendies

Just curious, if Bioware makes an official announcement for ending DLC, what would your reaction/opinion be?  Like what if they took up the Indoctrination Theory and that entire end sequence in the game wasn't real?  What would your opinion be?  You think the original endings we have are good/brilliant right?  

Then as long as it is optional and not forced overwrite I would be fine with it. I see no respectable reason why my enjoyment should be destroyed because others are annoyed when there is an option to keep both.

[boardnfool86]

Hellknites wrote...

Some people don't get it. If you have to make up most of the ending, its not a very good ending.

Not true - leaving the aftermath to one's imagination is a powerful literary device

And as I've said, I think a lot of things that people feel weren't explained, were.

[NormanRawn]

boardnfool86 wrote...

NormanRawn wrote...

NormanRawn wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

GreyhameBioware wrote...

I don't know if the people who think that life will go on fine whtout the relays understands exaclt how important the relays were.

Imagine modern day Earth completely loosing all forms of transportation other than horse and buggy, and sailing ships. Everything else can stay, like the Internet and such, but the worlds economy would completely collapse. There would be many years of hardship, many people will die. Sure eventually life would go on, but it would certainly not be pretty for a long time. Doesn't matter that you can still travel other places since it takes too long for the type of society we are.

That is what we doomed the Mass Effect universe to by destroying the relays. We destroyed galactic civilization instead of the Reapers. We didn't do it in the same way, and the species will probably go on if their planets can survive well enough.

Yes, more people will die, but the galaxy as a whole is saved. Depending on your choices, many other species too... just because the galaxy is saved doesn;t mean the days ahead are easy... when is the aftermath of a major conflict ever easy?

Not only will it be difficult, but you will reignite old conflicts between races and start new ones, all in the name of saving as many of your people as you can. Imagine races killing eachother over FTL fuel, so they can try to make it home in a few decades.

This is what many of us are imaging after the credits roll, and it is not the universe we wanted to imagine after the Reaper threat was gone.

I understand we needed to make sacrifices to survive, but in many of the fans minds, the sacrifice was to great.

greater than total annihilation?

That might still very well happen, that's how bleak the galaxy's
situation is after the war. And you have to realize this was in
BioWare's power to write something that didn't leave the fans wondering
how bad this galaxy could get.

[Dragoonlordz]

Pelle6666 wrote...

You've not understood the ending at all. The consequence of the destruction of the mass relays would be catastrophic to the entire galaxy. the only way that the settings of the ending could have been good is if there had been an option where Shepard tells the Catalyst that it's full of ****! Synthetic life doesn't have an urge to kill all organic life, the geth is actually fighting along you're side if you made that choice!
The ending of ME3 does not have enough options and it does not let me choose the end that would have fitted my story. That is the main reason why it sucks!
And then we have the Normandy's crash scene, but I don't even want to think about that screw up, that's a true betrayal worthy of Judas of the characters that we all have come to love.

Your story as it were has and always will be within a set number of branching content. It is not your story but more it is your story within the confines of their writing and choices willing to give you. There are moments within each of the titles in trilogy where this is extremely apparent even in the endings of the previous titles. You had limited set of choices within the framework of the story they wished to supply.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 mars 2012 - 11:46 .

[michael99887766]

1) No, our choices don't matter because pretty much everyone will die or regress without the relays. On top of that, when they are destroyed they wipe out surrounding life; if you want to go down the "the kid created them so he can disable them safely" route, then you really have got a deus ex... People were promised, people wanted, and people rightly expected, a truly diverse set of endings which provided closure based on choices throughout the series.

2) Just one choice, and a relatively minor and badly timed one at that.

3) Yup, that's nice, but it's not the real ending.

4) There are very FEW choices, and they bear a very limited resemblance to what has gone before. People are annoyed that Bioware have told us all our choices will matter and we'll have sixteen endings, yet when we get to the final scene we have some random AI dictating to us three nonsensical options. If the ending were decent, Shepard would tell the kid where to stick his "logic" and make his own choice based on rather more options which could very easily have been added. People want their hard work to pay off and let them choose from a wide range of options; those which we were given constrained us hugely and funnelled us into three endings which made no sense and were not even expounded on in any differing ways.

5) Except it's not our solution. The relays did not have to go - there's no logical reason for this, and their destruction means massive problems for the remaining species. It would be very easy to add the option to destroy the Reapers without getting rid of the relays, but again we were funnelled into making what was effectively a choice of one option. In destroying the relays Shepard doesn't get any retribution over and above that he can already achieve by destroying the reapers, but he does damn advanced civilisation.

Our decisions did not matter in that ending - not truly. People wanted a cathartic, fulfilling conclusion with various options, and they didn't get one.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you seem to be in the minority here and that says something about the ending's quality. An ending is not something which needs to be analysed in detail to assess its quality: people instantly and instinctively get a feel for how good it is; it's nice to have things neatly articulated and expounded upon (see "musings of a screenwriter") but gut feeling is a useful indicator here. No-one was complaining about the excellently executed endings to ME1 and ME2, and many people have suggested far, far more palatable and plausible alternatives to Bioware's actual offering for the third instalment. Based on that, I think that most of the criticism is reasonable and justified.

[boardnfool86]

MisterNugNug wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

Thats fair

with 1. they actually cut a lot out to make it more ambiguous, with 2. the climax is firing the Crucible - I dont know how much they coudl change, with 3. I guess I always felt the Reapers came from somewhere and was expecting that all along... but with 4... thats valid and I think thats a totally fair assessment on your part... maybe my expecation of an offbeat/somber/philisophical ending from a  video game is lower - my appreciation for not going the everyone lives happily ever after has me overlooking that I would prob not like the ending as much from cinema - but maybe I would. Hard to tell, big differnce between a Sci Fi VG and a movie like Incendies

Just curious, if Bioware makes an official announcement for ending DLC, what would your reaction/opinion be?  Like what if they took up the Indoctrination Theory and that entire end sequence in the game wasn't real?  What would your opinion be?  You think the original endings we have are good/brilliant right?  

I would play it, I think I would be disappointed at first, but if it well done I'd get over it, if it was mediocre I'd unintall it and stick with the original ending... it would make a lot of people happy so I don't think I'd be upset about it