237 réponses à ce sujet

[Mixxer5]

boardnfool86 wrote...

GreyhameBioware wrote...

I don't know if the people who think that life will go on fine whtout the relays understands exaclt how important the relays were.

Imagine modern day Earth completely loosing all forms of transportation other than horse and buggy, and sailing ships. Everything else can stay, like the Internet and such, but the worlds economy would completely collapse. There would be many years of hardship, many people will die. Sure eventually life would go on, but it would certainly not be pretty for a long time. Doesn't matter that you can still travel other places since it takes too long for the type of society we are.

That is what we doomed the Mass Effect universe to by destroying the relays. We destroyed galactic civilization instead of the Reapers. We didn't do it in the same way, and the species will probably go on if their planets can survive well enough.

Yes, more people will die, but the galaxy as a whole is saved. Depending on your choices, many other species too... just because the galaxy is saved doesn;t mean the days ahead are easy... when is the aftermath of a major conflict ever easy?

Galaxy is saved? Just great! Planets will prevail, most of colonies will die, every ship in space system without some good planet is doomed... Well. I feel like i've done really good job. I'm even better than Reapers. They needem much more time to "clear" galaxy.

[RShara]

boardnfool86 wrote...

Hellknites wrote...

Some people don't get it. If you have to make up most of the ending, its not a very good ending.

Not true - leaving the aftermath to one's imagination is a powerful literary device

And as I've said, I think a lot of things that people feel weren't explained, were.

An ending that simultaneously encourages you to THINK about it, also presents you with a lot of logical fallacies that completely short circuit the THINKING process.

Is the Starchild really telling the truth?  Where did he come from?  Why do we have to take his word that something is true and must happen, with no proof, and certainly no foundation of trust?  Why are we believing him about synthetics vs organics when all of our experience thus far contradicts this?  Why are the Reapers, who are synthetic or at most synthetic/organic, trying to "preserve" organic life?  How does taking away everything's free will constitute "saving them?  How do you Control something if you're Dead?  How does Destroying the major arteries of the galaxy help it?

[boardnfool86]

NormanRawn wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

NormanRawn wrote...

NormanRawn wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

GreyhameBioware wrote...

I don't know if the people who think that life will go on fine whtout the relays understands exaclt how important the relays were.

Imagine modern day Earth completely loosing all forms of transportation other than horse and buggy, and sailing ships. Everything else can stay, like the Internet and such, but the worlds economy would completely collapse. There would be many years of hardship, many people will die. Sure eventually life would go on, but it would certainly not be pretty for a long time. Doesn't matter that you can still travel other places since it takes too long for the type of society we are.

That is what we doomed the Mass Effect universe to by destroying the relays. We destroyed galactic civilization instead of the Reapers. We didn't do it in the same way, and the species will probably go on if their planets can survive well enough.

Yes, more people will die, but the galaxy as a whole is saved. Depending on your choices, many other species too... just because the galaxy is saved doesn;t mean the days ahead are easy... when is the aftermath of a major conflict ever easy?

Not only will it be difficult, but you will reignite old conflicts between races and start new ones, all in the name of saving as many of your people as you can. Imagine races killing eachother over FTL fuel, so they can try to make it home in a few decades.

This is what many of us are imaging after the credits roll, and it is not the universe we wanted to imagine after the Reaper threat was gone.

I understand we needed to make sacrifices to survive, but in many of the fans minds, the sacrifice was to great.

greater than total annihilation?

That might still very well happen, that's how bleak the galaxy's
situation is after the war. And you have to realize this was in
BioWare's power to write something that didn't leave the fans wondering
how bad this galaxy could get.

The two star gazers seem fine... and with most non urban areas left relatively untouched I think most species would be fine... the worst is over but that doesn't make everything immediately peachy, in fact it will take several lifetimes to even rebuild planets and minimum several more to start reconnecting the galaxy

[Erield]

boardnfool86 wrote...

GreyhameBioware wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

GreyhameBioware wrote...

I don't know if the people who think that life will go on fine whtout the relays understands exaclt how important the relays were.

Imagine modern day Earth completely loosing all forms of transportation other than horse and buggy, and sailing ships. Everything else can stay, like the Internet and such, but the worlds economy would completely collapse. There would be many years of hardship, many people will die. Sure eventually life would go on, but it would certainly not be pretty for a long time. Doesn't matter that you can still travel other places since it takes too long for the type of society we are.

That is what we doomed the Mass Effect universe to by destroying the relays. We destroyed galactic civilization instead of the Reapers. We didn't do it in the same way, and the species will probably go on if their planets can survive well enough.

Yes, more people will die, but the galaxy as a whole is saved. Depending on your choices, many other species too... just because the galaxy is saved doesn;t mean the days ahead are easy... when is the aftermath of a major conflict ever easy?

But I didn't save the galaxy.  I stopped the cycles, but the galaxy is still screwed.

I would say the galaxy is in some ways better off than before Shep, and in many ways worse off than pre-Reaper, but I would argue that down the road the galaxy will be better off than ever before due to choices you made (and then again maybe not depending on other choices)

The Reapers are on a 50,000 year cycle (plus or minus a few centuries or millenia) to harvest sentient life.  Javik makes it clear that the Protheans knew about all of the current cycle's sentient, advanced races.  How many of these races developed or expanded upon a form of travel that was on par with the Mass Relays?  None.

In my opinion, the best part of the ME universe is the wide variety of races and how they interact with each other.  In a universe without the Mass Relays, Shepard would have never met Liara, or Tali, or Garrus or Wrex or Mordin or Samara or any of the others.  Even if the current cycle isn't wiped out, there will be a general galactic dark age due to the loss of the Relays and the focus on just surviving.  It's very possible (probable, in my mind) that the Relay network (or its replacement) wouldn't be able to be replaced even in thousands of years.  Perhaps never; by the time the galaxy is in a position to start trying to discover how to build the Relays, the people may have lost enough to never again make the breakthroughs necessary for that travel.

What the ME3 endings have told me is that it's the journey that matters, and not so much the destination.  If that's the case, why in HELL would I deny future cycles the ability to make that same journey?  In no way is the galaxy "better off" after Shepard pushes the button to destroy the very thing that made this cycle's journey so wonderfully captivating.

[DashRunner92]

Our actions really didn't make. You do know there's no "bad" ending if you don't have enough war assets. Also the ending is a copy-and-paste from Deus Ex 1

[avmf8]

No the original ending needs to go the part with the elusive man and the opening the citadel fine the god child needs to go. I do not see how anyone would like the god child idea.

[Devil Mingy]

The Stargazer scene doesn't really mean much to me. What am I supposed to get out of it? Life goes on?

Life would have went on even if the Reapers won. The life we knew and cared about through the three games would've been harvested or annihilated, but I'm not entirely sure that won't happen anyway.

Then again, given the nebulous ending, I'm not even sure the Stargazer and the child are human. This ending could mean just about anything to anybody. It's practically a blank page.

[RShara]

The two stargazers are on a different planet, as evidenced by the moons in the sky. If they are the descendents of the Normandy crew (which you and I both don't know), then they landed in a planet with significant plant life, thus arable land, and a very small population, which would generally not require as much importation. And even then, witness the first Pilgrims, and their deathrate when they had no outside supplies coming in.

[michael99887766]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Pelle6666 wrote...

You've not understood the ending at all. The consequence of the destruction of the mass relays would be catastrophic to the entire galaxy. the only way that the settings of the ending could have been good is if there had been an option where Shepard tells the Catalyst that it's full of ****! Synthetic life doesn't have an urge to kill all organic life, the geth is actually fighting along you're side if you made that choice!
The ending of ME3 does not have enough options and it does not let me choose the end that would have fitted my story. That is the main reason why it sucks!
And then we have the Normandy's crash scene, but I don't even want to think about that screw up, that's a true betrayal worthy of Judas of the characters that we all have come to love.

Your story as it were has and always will be within a set number of branching content. It is not your story but more it is your story within the confines of their writing and choices willing to give you. There are moments within each of the titles in trilogy where this is extremely apparent even in the endings of the previous titles. You had limited set of choices within the framework of the story they wished to supply.

Yes but the ME games were excellent at giving you various options and making you feel that your choices made a difference. Sure the story will always take place within confines, but to narrow this epic into three (or effectively one) very shoddy and poorly executed ending did not live up to its build up or the devs' promises.

[agathokakological]

http://i44.tinypic.com/dfgln7.gif

Modifié par agathokakological, 16 mars 2012 - 11:51 .

[boardnfool86]

RShara wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

Hellknites wrote...

Some people don't get it. If you have to make up most of the ending, its not a very good ending.

Not true - leaving the aftermath to one's imagination is a powerful literary device

And as I've said, I think a lot of things that people feel weren't explained, were.

An ending that simultaneously encourages you to THINK about it, also presents you with a lot of logical fallacies that completely short circuit the THINKING process.

Is the Starchild really telling the truth?  Where did he come from?  Why do we have to take his word that something is true and must happen, with no proof, and certainly no foundation of trust?  Why are we believing him about synthetics vs organics when all of our experience thus far contradicts this?  Why are the Reapers, who are synthetic or at most synthetic/organic, trying to "preserve" organic life?  How does taking away everything's free will constitute "saving them?  How do you Control something if you're Dead?  How does Destroying the major arteries of the galaxy help it?

Do you have a choice but to take him on his word? Even if you don't you only have three choices... 4 if you count game over

They are stopping evolution at a point adn essentially 'resetting' the universe for fear that synthetics created by organics would eventually wipe them out... they have the assumption that synthetics are superior - they then justify this by 'reaping' which to them is the preservation of species in reaper form... as monstrous as we see this, their logic finds it jsutifiable - their way of thinking is (obviously) very different

[Dragoonlordz]

DashRunner92 wrote...

Our actions really didn't make. You do know there's no "bad" ending if you don't have enough war assets. Also the ending is a copy-and-paste from Deus Ex 1

Deus Ex first title and HR were both good games as is ME3. 

Best titles of past year for me: DEHR, Skyrim, TW2 and now ME3 too.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 mars 2012 - 11:53 .

[RShara]

boardnfool86 wrote...

RShara wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

Hellknites wrote...

Some people don't get it. If you have to make up most of the ending, its not a very good ending.

Not true - leaving the aftermath to one's imagination is a powerful literary device

And as I've said, I think a lot of things that people feel weren't explained, were.

An ending that simultaneously encourages you to THINK about it, also presents you with a lot of logical fallacies that completely short circuit the THINKING process.

Is the Starchild really telling the truth?  Where did he come from?  Why do we have to take his word that something is true and must happen, with no proof, and certainly no foundation of trust?  Why are we believing him about synthetics vs organics when all of our experience thus far contradicts this?  Why are the Reapers, who are synthetic or at most synthetic/organic, trying to "preserve" organic life?  How does taking away everything's free will constitute "saving them?  How do you Control something if you're Dead?  How does Destroying the major arteries of the galaxy help it?

Do you have a choice but to take him on his word? Even if you don't you only have three choices... 4 if you count game over

They are stopping evolution at a point adn essentially 'resetting' the universe for fear that synthetics created by organics would eventually wipe them out... they have the assumption that synthetics are superior - they then justify this by 'reaping' which to them is the preservation of species in reaper form... as monstrous as we see this, their logic finds it jsutifiable - their way of thinking is (obviously) very different

The part in bold.  THE PART IN BOLD TO INFINITY

Also, if they are trying to preserve organic life, why don't they just destroy the synthetics, since they don't reap them anyway?

[ollec92]

After contemplating what is seen in this video () I would actually agree that it was a good ending!

[boardnfool86]

Erield wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

GreyhameBioware wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

GreyhameBioware wrote...

I don't know if the people who think that life will go on fine whtout the relays understands exaclt how important the relays were.

Imagine modern day Earth completely loosing all forms of transportation other than horse and buggy, and sailing ships. Everything else can stay, like the Internet and such, but the worlds economy would completely collapse. There would be many years of hardship, many people will die. Sure eventually life would go on, but it would certainly not be pretty for a long time. Doesn't matter that you can still travel other places since it takes too long for the type of society we are.

That is what we doomed the Mass Effect universe to by destroying the relays. We destroyed galactic civilization instead of the Reapers. We didn't do it in the same way, and the species will probably go on if their planets can survive well enough.

Yes, more people will die, but the galaxy as a whole is saved. Depending on your choices, many other species too... just because the galaxy is saved doesn;t mean the days ahead are easy... when is the aftermath of a major conflict ever easy?

But I didn't save the galaxy.  I stopped the cycles, but the galaxy is still screwed.

I would say the galaxy is in some ways better off than before Shep, and in many ways worse off than pre-Reaper, but I would argue that down the road the galaxy will be better off than ever before due to choices you made (and then again maybe not depending on other choices)

The Reapers are on a 50,000 year cycle (plus or minus a few centuries or millenia) to harvest sentient life.  Javik makes it clear that the Protheans knew about all of the current cycle's sentient, advanced races.  How many of these races developed or expanded upon a form of travel that was on par with the Mass Relays?  None.

In my opinion, the best part of the ME universe is the wide variety of races and how they interact with each other.  In a universe without the Mass Relays, Shepard would have never met Liara, or Tali, or Garrus or Wrex or Mordin or Samara or any of the others.  Even if the current cycle isn't wiped out, there will be a general galactic dark age due to the loss of the Relays and the focus on just surviving.  It's very possible (probable, in my mind) that the Relay network (or its replacement) wouldn't be able to be replaced even in thousands of years.  Perhaps never; by the time the galaxy is in a position to start trying to discover how to build the Relays, the people may have lost enough to never again make the breakthroughs necessary for that travel.

What the ME3 endings have told me is that it's the journey that matters, and not so much the destination.  If that's the case, why in HELL would I deny future cycles the ability to make that same journey?  In no way is the galaxy "better off" after Shepard pushes the button to destroy the very thing that made this cycle's journey so wonderfully captivating.

We don't have mass relays and I like my life just fine... and yes there would be a 'dark age' but there would also be peace and prosperity (possibly)

[johnbonhamatron]

boardnfool86 wrote...

Hellknites wrote...

Some people don't get it. If you have to make up most of the ending, its not a very good ending.

Not true - leaving the aftermath to one's imagination is a powerful literary device

And as I've said, I think a lot of things that people feel weren't explained, were.

This is the problem I have: things really weren't explained. I'm not going to get into plotholes etc, that's irrelevant to the point I'm making. If we take the ending sequence at face value, then the firing of the crucible is a galaxy-chanigng event, to such an extent that it changes the very rules of the narrative. Because of that, we can't know what the new rules are, so we have no framework to even speculate what the future could be.

The analogy I use is a game of chess. It's akin to removing the chess board, and replacing it with a monopoly board, while still keeping every piece in play. Sure, the pieces are still in the same position, but the context has changed to such an extent that we can't make any accurate guesses about what will happen next.

That's the problem I have with the ending: it changes the rules of the universe, without telling us what the new rules are, so instead of speculating, we're left to wildly make up anything to make ourselves feel better.

All I can do is explain why it felt so weak. Not going to rag on you, if you enjoyed it, more power to ya.

[Whatever42]

I think we're being a bit pessimistic about the future of the galaxy.

With FTL, planets aren't doomed. As mentioned by another poster, it simply means that they are reduced to direct support by their local cluster (which likely supported them anyway). Trade with nearby clusters might also work (think European-Far East trade during the middle ages). With the mass kill-off with the war, there are likely also many planets to re-colonize. Civilzation survives.

The Protheans could build their own relays. Sure, they were much more advanced than current civilizations but in the not so distant future, with some effort, galactic civilization will be restored.

I think the real failure is that of the story of the crew and a lack of an emotionally satisfying conclusion. The galaxy isn't destroyed - although its in rough shape.

[Ainyan42]

I'm not sure how you can say it's brilliant to have to choose between the genocide of an allied race and the murder of a close friend, the removal of free-will and self-determination (as well as everything unique and special) from every creature and plant in the galaxy, or the enslavement of an entire race and becoming exactly what you were fighting against for the past three years.

Maybe it's stupid of me, but when the theme of the game is hope and beating the odds, I expect a resolution that doesn't cause me to sell my soul - or destroy it.

[RShara]

We're not at a point yet where mass relays would be an option. And even we are having resource problems.
At our point in time, it's more like destroying all major highways. What's up, New York?

[III_wAR]

boardnfool86 wrote...

Hellknites wrote...

Some people don't get it. If you have to make up most of the ending, its not a very good ending.

Not true - leaving the aftermath to one's imagination is a powerful literary device

And as I've said, I think a lot of things that people feel weren't explained, were.

Well, I'm not going to pay $80 for a book with the last chapter/ending missing and the author telling me to use my imagination for the last chapter.

Lets put it another way. Lets say the ending was totally different and everyone loved it, everything was explained etc. But the couple scenes prior, lets say when the illusive man confronts shepard and anderson on the citadel. You get to the point where shepard shoots anderson, then its cuts to shepard talking to the starchild without explanation. Would't you want to know what happened? Why shep is all of a sudden talking to the starchild, what happened to anderson? the illusive man? what were the illusive mans motivations etc. Thats the way I feel about parts of the ending we got. Just to many questions.

[Reptilian Rob]

Actually no it isn't, notice I said "it" being that there is only ONE ending.

Deus Ex Machina = Copout.

[Versus Omnibus]

Erield wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

Oh and as far as where is this person, how'd these people make it, what are they eating type questions... Shep's story is over, the future has yet to be realized. Mass Effect is about savig the Galaxy the aftermath is up to you.

Except we didn't save the galaxy. We doomed it.

Says who? You eliminated the immediate Reaper threat, after that is your own interpretation - I believe the Galaxy was saved by my Shep

Imagine what would happen to our current Earth's society if suddenly all oil, natural gas, gasoline, etc. suddenly vanished in, literally, a giant flash of light.  Everything that modern society, across the globe, is based around is this way of creating energy.  What happens if you can't easily ship food from the Midwest to, say, New York City? Across the world?  How many civilizations fail because fast and easy transportation is no longer possible?

If you read the codex entries in ME3, you find out that a LOT of tech upgrades were based on Reaper tech.  Would these be destroyed/controlled/merged in the Shockwave of Death too?  We don't know that--all we know is that, BEST case scenario, only the star systems that are capable of independently supporting life will survive.  The absoute best you can argue for is that you saved portions of the galaxy.  Even those places that were saved are going to be set back, at the very least, decades as they re-build an infrastructure that relies upon being isolated from the rest of the galaxy instead of integrated with it.

Even if Shepard and every single one of his team-mates live, there is no happy ending.

This pretty much sums up why the Mass Relays were so important. Sure you stopped the Reapers, but now you've doomed the Galaxy to a slow and painful death.

[NormanRawn]

boardnfool86 wrote...

Erield wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

GreyhameBioware wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

GreyhameBioware wrote...

I don't know if the people who think that life will go on fine whtout the relays understands exaclt how important the relays were.

Imagine modern day Earth completely loosing all forms of transportation other than horse and buggy, and sailing ships. Everything else can stay, like the Internet and such, but the worlds economy would completely collapse. There would be many years of hardship, many people will die. Sure eventually life would go on, but it would certainly not be pretty for a long time. Doesn't matter that you can still travel other places since it takes too long for the type of society we are.

That is what we doomed the Mass Effect universe to by destroying the relays. We destroyed galactic civilization instead of the Reapers. We didn't do it in the same way, and the species will probably go on if their planets can survive well enough.

Yes, more people will die, but the galaxy as a whole is saved. Depending on your choices, many other species too... just because the galaxy is saved doesn;t mean the days ahead are easy... when is the aftermath of a major conflict ever easy?

But I didn't save the galaxy.  I stopped the cycles, but the galaxy is still screwed.

I would say the galaxy is in some ways better off than before Shep, and in many ways worse off than pre-Reaper, but I would argue that down the road the galaxy will be better off than ever before due to choices you made (and then again maybe not depending on other choices)

The Reapers are on a 50,000 year cycle (plus or minus a few centuries or millenia) to harvest sentient life.  Javik makes it clear that the Protheans knew about all of the current cycle's sentient, advanced races.  How many of these races developed or expanded upon a form of travel that was on par with the Mass Relays?  None.

In my opinion, the best part of the ME universe is the wide variety of races and how they interact with each other.  In a universe without the Mass Relays, Shepard would have never met Liara, or Tali, or Garrus or Wrex or Mordin or Samara or any of the others.  Even if the current cycle isn't wiped out, there will be a general galactic dark age due to the loss of the Relays and the focus on just surviving.  It's very possible (probable, in my mind) that the Relay network (or its replacement) wouldn't be able to be replaced even in thousands of years.  Perhaps never; by the time the galaxy is in a position to start trying to discover how to build the Relays, the people may have lost enough to never again make the breakthroughs necessary for that travel.

What the ME3 endings have told me is that it's the journey that matters, and not so much the destination.  If that's the case, why in HELL would I deny future cycles the ability to make that same journey?  In no way is the galaxy "better off" after Shepard pushes the button to destroy the very thing that made this cycle's journey so wonderfully captivating.

We don't have mass relays and I like my life just fine... and yes there would be a 'dark age' but there would also be peace and prosperity (possibly)

The people in the Mass Effect universe have become dependant on the mass relays, you have never had them, but they did and lost them. Could you live without the luxuries our modern society? Many people couldn't, and it could cause some serious problems.

[DextroDNA]

Yeah, what's more brilliant than...
SPAAACCEE MAAAGIC.
The Space Core would have a field day!

[Asuukuru]

boardnfool86 wrote...

RShara wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

Hellknites wrote...

Some people don't get it. If you have to make up most of the ending, its not a very good ending.

Not true - leaving the aftermath to one's imagination is a powerful literary device

And as I've said, I think a lot of things that people feel weren't explained, were.

An ending that simultaneously encourages you to THINK about it, also presents you with a lot of logical fallacies that completely short circuit the THINKING process.

Is the Starchild really telling the truth?  Where did he come from?  Why do we have to take his word that something is true and must happen, with no proof, and certainly no foundation of trust?  Why are we believing him about synthetics vs organics when all of our experience thus far contradicts this?  Why are the Reapers, who are synthetic or at most synthetic/organic, trying to "preserve" organic life?  How does taking away everything's free will constitute "saving them?  How do you Control something if you're Dead?  How does Destroying the major arteries of the galaxy help it?

Do you have a choice but to take him on his word? Even if you don't you only have three choices... 4 if you count game over

They are stopping evolution at a point adn essentially 'resetting' the universe for fear that synthetics created by organics would eventually wipe them out... they have the assumption that synthetics are superior - they then justify this by 'reaping' which to them is the preservation of species in reaper form... as monstrous as we see this, their logic finds it jsutifiable - their way of thinking is (obviously) very different

THe Starchild expressing the reason the reapers reap is rather unimportant, whatever their reasons, it doesnt matter whether you understand them or not. The problem with the ending is precisely that you only have those 3 choices, the entire game is about Shepard beating the odds and finding a way to do the impossible. On the entire trilogy, Shepard refuses to accept the idea that the reapers are unbeatable, and that losing to them is an inevitability. It doesnt fit the character traits that have been built for Shepard to simply hear the 3 options and say, ohh you are right, thats the only way of doing things. It seems as if Shepard did all he did to decide on the last minute in the last conversation to give up, and simply accept what he is told. That is my big problem with the ending. It doesnt fit the basic concepts of the trilogy. As well as the destroying the relays doesn't make sense. Lets assume that when they are destroyed they emitt some kind of high frequency, non lethal energy wave. There is still no reason to destroy them, saying that you need to destroy them because they were built for conquest is like saying you should destroy all highways because they were originally meant for invasion as well. It doesnt matter what they were meant for, it matters what effect they have in the galaxy and what they are currently used for. Also, without the reaper threat, then how dangerous are the relays anyway?