9972 réponses à ce sujet

[Zelto]

Syrellaris wrote...

TheRealMithril wrote...

Relwyn wrote...

As I work in a scientific field for a living, a sample of 50 000 is overkill for any scientific study when extrapolating the results of the statistics onto a larger population. Normally a study has a few hundred or a few thousand individuals participating because it is enough to make conclusions based on the statistical analysis. 

A sample size of tens of thousands is simply put overkill in terms of statistics. Studies with such a sample size are on a continental or national scale. While the poll itself is simply put a poll and nothing more, it's limited in some ways - however: Anyone who sees it at Bioware is probably lighting a cigarette with shaky hands because they know that the poll is a good indication of the public's view of the game's ending. 

To do as IGN and other organizations (including Bioware) have done and call it a minority or try to downplay the size of the community which thinks the ending is terrible is to be intellectually disingenuous/dishonest. 

While they do their PR-shell game for now (which they can only keep up for so long, sooner or later they'll have to come clean), I'll shamelessely Hold the Line.

Kudos, this very point was raised by many of us when attempts were made to minimalize the effects of the polls

I'll repeat what I also said (in a similar situation, because this keep getting lost in the steady stream of other posts) in regards to this point: The polls (even if badly made) are so large that even with a heathly 'rebate' there would still be more than 75% who are against the endings. The polls are so huge that they would tell you who the next president is, it is that accurate.

I don't mean to steal your point (just to make it clear) only to add support to it

Again, kudos. 

They would have probable cause if they were accurate. Which the poll on BSN is not. Even if its 50 000 votes, the problem with the poll is people can constantly revote and each vote would count. Any scientist, evne the one you quoted or any other person that has to deal with polls and statistics, would dismiss a Inaccurate poll right away.

Not a pure scientist but in the field, so here's my interpritation

1) Polls like this will be biased towards the strong opinions, which most people who played the game and liked the ending will not have. Therefore even though 90% (don't know the exact number) disliked the ending to extrapolate that out over the millions is not accurate. However, while this is the case it is totally inaccurate to say that 'only people who voted disliked', that is totally wrong, personally I would say, if the poll indicates 90%, then somwhere between 50-70% most likely dislike or strongly dislike the ending, that however is purly a hypothisis with no dirrect scientific proof.

2) The poll is probably bias, its extreemly hard to word questions which don't lead you to a given answer, its actually a bit of an art getting the questions right. That said, everyone knows the answer they would give no matter the question so i feel in this case that is no longer a vaild point.

3)I also think that the PR people forgot we aren't all 12 years old and easily swayed by faulty logic (I mean no offence to 12 year olds, just thats what non-gamers often think of us)

4) 50,000 is massivly more than needed to show scientific treanding. I have heard of experiments with samples in the 10's being given academic/media credence.

[Relwyn]

Syrellaris wrote...

TheRealMithril wrote...

Syrellaris wrote...

TheRealMithril wrote...

Relwyn wrote...

As I work in a scientific field for a living, a sample of 50 000 is overkill for any scientific study when extrapolating the results of the statistics onto a larger population. Normally a study has a few hundred or a few thousand individuals participating because it is enough to make conclusions based on the statistical analysis. 

A sample size of tens of thousands is simply put overkill in terms of statistics. Studies with such a sample size are on a continental or national scale. While the poll itself is simply put a poll and nothing more, it's limited in some ways - however: Anyone who sees it at Bioware is probably lighting a cigarette with shaky hands because they know that the poll is a good indication of the public's view of the game's ending. 

To do as IGN and other organizations (including Bioware) have done and call it a minority or try to downplay the size of the community which thinks the ending is terrible is to be intellectually disingenuous/dishonest. 

While they do their PR-shell game for now (which they can only keep up for so long, sooner or later they'll have to come clean), I'll shamelessely Hold the Line.

Kudos, this very point was raised by many of us when attempts were made to minimalize the effects of the polls

I'll repeat what I also said (in a similar situation, because this keep getting lost in the steady stream of other posts) in regards to this point: The polls (even if badly made) are so large that even with a heathly 'rebate' there would still be more than 75% who are against the endings. The polls are so huge that they would tell you who the next president is, it is that accurate.

I don't mean to steal your point (just to make it clear) only to add support to it

Again, kudos. 

They would have probable cause if they were accurate. Which the poll on BSN is not. Even if its 50 000 votes, the problem with the poll is people can constantly revote and each vote would count. Any scientist, evne the one you quoted or any other person that has to deal with polls and statistics, would dismiss a Inaccurate poll right away.

Yes and no. Yes, because it is possible (with the poll you refer to) to do that. No, because even if some did, it would still not affect the numbers in a major way when there are so many answers. Secondly there are other polls with much better control (such as your IP have already voted) that are enough to make your point invalid.

It does not make my point invalid. sorry to inform you about that.  If IP voting was used, you would not be able to vote more then once on the poll. The fact that you can shows the poll does not keep track of individual IP's.

Take away all the duplicate votings and it would be about perhaps 60 / 40.

While certainly true that it would diminish the poll's value if people can vote multiple times (I for some reason can not, the results jump up each time i go to the poll, this could be a bug on the forums and only a certain percentage of voters experience it) there is however one issue:

There are other polls both on BSN, google docs as well as sites such as TWcenter.net that show a similar voting curve, ~90% people want the ending changed, ~5% indifferent and ~5% are fine with it and frankly one quiz i filled in about the ending in a google document  was much more informative than the 50k-votes poll.

It had more variety, asked about 10-15 questions and you had multiple choices with good variety between the choices to answer and apparently from the results it had thousands of people who finished it, as far as I know it's impossible to fill the form mutliple times.

regards,
Relwyn

Modifié par Relwyn, 18 mars 2012 - 01:42 .

[Fame-KIllz]

Absolutely brilliant read, thanks to all the contributors.

Hold the line.

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

Starscream723 wrote...

Aetius5 wrote...

Ending the trilogy like the way Bioware did is the equvilent of ending Return of the King after Frodo and Sam walk into Mount Doom....

It's more like Frodo and Sam walk into Mount Doom while all their pals fight the monsters. They throw the ring into the fires... causing all of Middle Earth to explode (in the colour of your choice) and leaving the world in a worse state than Sauron ever would have. They both die, then suddenly Aragorn and Gandalf are on a boat thousands of miles away, with no explanation as to how they got there or why they weren't at the final battle anymore.


Then it cuts to Peter Falk sat by his grandson's bed, telling him a story.

Now you see if that were a joke deleted scene hidden on the DvD I would laugh and think Peter Jackson had a great sense of humor. As a real ending I can't believe anyone oked it.

Hold the line as long as it takes people.

[Nadtsat]

Isolated unit, holding the line in Belgium.

[niteight]

I'd like to hold the line but I'm still holding my backside after being bent over by EA with the abomination that was Dragon Age 2,the day 1 disc locked content,& the ending which managed to ruin the whole mass effect series for me.I don't understand how they think anyone would buy DLC for this game whether it's pre or post ending DLC after seeing what they've done to it.They've expressed interest in returning to the Mass Effect universe in the future but who the heck do they really think will want to buy it now?The only return I'm planning is taking my copy to gamestop if they don't commit to fixing it.And I'm quite sure I won't be the only one.

[Quietness]

Kilshrek wrote...

Heh, remember what ParaShep says to Kalisah?

Keep asking them the hard questions, don't let them forget about us. (paraphrased, obviously)

And about the numbers in the poll, to switch fomr 90% to 60% is stretching it beyond credibility. You cannot just take 30% of 50,000 and say those are duplicates. That is a wild assumption and will be treated as such. 15% is the farthest I dare go without having to put on a tin foil hat.

And remember all those pre-release statements. Hold on to those, because Bioware has appeared to write checks(cheques?) they can't cash.

I wouldnt bother attempting to talk to them. They use half-truths, and when they are proven they are using double standards they flat out ignore the responses. Honestly, they're just trolling for a response at this point.

[Lil One]

I think this is relevant to get our point across as to why we hold the line?

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10133310/1


Holding the line.

[Kilshrek]

Nadtsat wrote...

Isolated unit, holding the line in Belgium.

We'll see if HQ can't get you some support.

Guys, the poll discussion is all well and good but discussion of its validity is only tangentially relevant to the thread here. I appreciate that the discussion is earnest, and I would participate as well, and I'm in science. I used to work in a lab, but discussing it derails the thread.

There's a lot more riding on this than the actual percentage of fans who disliked the ending.

Modifié par Kilshrek, 18 mars 2012 - 01:41 .

[Lena Grozi]

NightScream42 wrote...

Lena Grozi wrote...

NightScream42 wrote...

Well I already posted this in the Operation: Goliath thread but perhaps it'll get more attention here and adding a little bit more to it. Lol @ people that think the whole weekend event is damage control. I guess we gotta follow a new rule
everytime a game does something we don't like, and then ends up having an event, that event is obviously damage control! Although there is a few RARE exceptions that this is the case, but this event just isn't one of them sorry haters. And FYI this event is the FIRST event of more to come it even states it notice the "Welcome to the first N7 challenge weekend"? Keyword being first. It's not just a one time damage control thing. It's something that is just part of the game like every other game that has random events. If so many people weren't so butthurt about the ending this event would just be viewed as a normal part of the game which is what it probably is anyway. But people just decided it was a good time to start a conspiracy theory / flame-a-thon and somehow link the event to it being damage control. And on a final note I love the game the ending included.

I'm honestly glad that you liked both the game and its ending. Believe me, each and every one of us would love to spare us and others the pain we felt about that ending. So if your story found a satisfying and logical ending already, I congratulate you on a job wonderfully done, cheers to many hours of pleasure playing the games, and my best wishes from the heart to the future games you play - may they also be pleasureable and satisfying.
Personally, my own story is still incomplete due to the ending, and it turns out that I'm not alone feeling like this. After the long journey to this point I can't let it go.

So what exactly bothers you about the ending anyway? From what I took from the ending it paves the way for Mass Effect 4. Being based much further in the future with the child that was with the Stargazer being the new main character of the game. Since correct me if I'm wrong isn't Mass Effect 3 supposed to be Shepards last one? But not generally the end of the series itself?

Basically, this:
http://www.gamefront...ns-are-right/5/

Sure, Shepard's story ends here, no question about it. It's that the end makes no sense to me. That article gives the reasons why. I'd love to play more games in ME universe, of course, and I don't think it should be more about Shepard.

[Relwyn]

Zelto wrote...

1) Polls like this will be biased towards the strong opinions, which most people who played the game and liked the ending will not have. Therefore even though 90% (don't know the exact number) disliked the ending to extrapolate that out over the millions is not accurate. However, while this is the case it is totally inaccurate to say that 'only people who voted disliked', that is totally wrong, personally I would say, if the poll indicates 90%, then somwhere between 50-70% most likely dislike or strongly dislike the ending, that however is purly a hypothisis with no dirrect scientific proof.

2) The poll is probably bias, its extreemly hard to word questions which don't lead you to a given answer, its actually a bit of an art getting the questions right. That said, everyone knows the answer they would give no matter the question so i feel in this case that is no longer a vaild point.

There are other questionnaires which remove much of the bias problem by adding more answers you can vote for as well as "if none above then please explain here: ....". Also when doing these kinds of studies there's always a certain amount of bias because of the nature of the questions and the study itself, and some bias may never be removed - one simply has to account for it when typing that down in the paper when you write about Conclusions. (this is also one of the reasons why most papers recommend further studies into the subject)

Zelto wrote...
3)I also think that the PR people forgot we aren't all 12 years old and easily swayed by faulty logic (I mean no offence to 12 year olds, just thats what non-gamers often think of us)

4) 50,000 is massivly more than needed to show scientific treanding. I have heard of experiments with samples in the 10's being given academic/media credence.

@ 3) That's what you get when you use a Deus ex machina sadly to explain complicated issues. Complicated questions should never have easy answers, because if it's easy - it's most likely inaccurate (that's at least how scientific work proceeds. It would be great if we could explain the connection between the macro-universe and the micro-universe with one simple theory - but if the answer were simple, we'd already have it.) 

4) While there are smaller studies, medical studies (my field) normally range between 50-300 patients being examined most of the time, it depends on the subject you investigate and how big a sample your can gather in X amount of time. This is why studies usually take years to formulate. There is most of the time a minimum size of your sample if you wish to make a correlation to a larger population, otherwise you risk the wrath of your peers as they dissect your study piecemeal 

Modifié par Relwyn, 18 mars 2012 - 01:44 .

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

Hold the line for as long as it takes people.

[NightScream42]

musicaleCA wrote...

NightScream42 wrote...

Lena Grozi wrote...

NightScream42 wrote...

Well I already posted this in the Operation: Goliath thread but perhaps it'll get more attention here and adding a little bit more to it. Lol @ people that think the whole weekend event is damage control. I guess we gotta follow a new rule
everytime a game does something we don't like, and then ends up having an event, that event is obviously damage control! Although there is a few RARE exceptions that this is the case, but this event just isn't one of them sorry haters. And FYI this event is the FIRST event of more to come it even states it notice the "Welcome to the first N7 challenge weekend"? Keyword being first. It's not just a one time damage control thing. It's something that is just part of the game like every other game that has random events. If so many people weren't so butthurt about the ending this event would just be viewed as a normal part of the game which is what it probably is anyway. But people just decided it was a good time to start a conspiracy theory / flame-a-thon and somehow link the event to it being damage control. And on a final note I love the game the ending included.

I'm honestly glad that you liked both the game and its ending. Believe me, each and every one of us would love to spare us and others the pain we felt about that ending. So if your story found a satisfying and logical ending already, I congratulate you on a job wonderfully done, cheers to many hours of pleasure playing the games, and my best wishes from the heart to the future games you play - may they also be pleasureable and satisfying.
Personally, my own story is still incomplete due to the ending, and it turns out that I'm not alone feeling like this. After the long journey to this point I can't let it go.

So what exactly bothers you about the ending anyway? From what I took from the ending it paves the way for Mass Effect 4. Being based much further in the future with the child that was with the Stargazer being the new main character of the game. Since correct me if I'm wrong isn't Mass Effect 3 supposed to be Shepards last one? But not generally the end of the series itself?

I don't really see how it does this. Even if the relays didn't explode in a particularly horrifying way, by incinerating the systems they're in, you're still left with an inferred holocaust, and a definite galactic dark age. Just think of what would happen to our society if you smashed every boat, plane, train, and truck, demolishing all the roads and railroads in the process. The economy would collapse in a day. Food would be unavailable within days, a week at the outside in the least densly populated areas. Planets that depended on intergalactic trade to sustain their populations would require mass suicide of portions of the population. Without the mass relays...that'd be an awefully small game universe, by comparison.

It didn't destroy the systems it just destroyed the Mass Relays. And depending when exactly Mass Effect 4 is based timewise who can really say what kind of technology will exist in the next games overall lore and whatnot.
Yes it took away the current way of life but it didn't end it. The way they ended it has many ways it can be viewed on what they could possibly do in 4. If people were smart enough to realize it. It may not be the best ending of a game of all time but it's certainly not the worst of all time either.

[Twiggyrez]

another proof of the PR damage control http://bit.ly/xxOD72

For those who don't understand french, it's a contest where you can win Nvidia graphic card, a SSV Normandy maquette or the Mass Effect 3 game

[Denethar]

From what I can tell, Bioware has already lost, but just not realised it yet. This whole thing has never happened on this level before which makes all their usual tactics all but void. They're trying the wait and see apporach, they're trying it's a minority approach....meanwhile 50.000+ people are voting and it's all ending up on CNN. Question is how long will it take Bioware to realise that it's game over?, Before or after it's too late to fix the economical and public opinion damage to their company.

[musicaleCA]

Starscream723 wrote...

Aetius5 wrote...

Ending the trilogy like the way Bioware did is the equvilent of ending Return of the King after Frodo and Sam walk into Mount Doom....

It's more like Frodo and Sam walk into Mount Doom while all their pals fight the monsters. They throw the ring into the fires... causing all of Middle Earth to explode (in the colour of your choice) and leaving the world in a worse state than Sauron ever would have. They both die, then suddenly Aragorn and Gandalf are on a boat thousands of miles away, with no explanation as to how they got there or why they weren't at the final battle anymore.


Then it cuts to Peter Falk sat by his grandson's bed, telling him a story.

LOL. That was hilarious! And rather apt. But mostly hilarious. 

[Lyons6]

I have told five of my friends and while they want to buy it have decided to hold off to see if Bioware rectifiy this mess. Until then I will hold the line and not play the SP or MP.

[ChristianTh]

ouch, I' m sure EA/BW-Pressguys are unhappy with these analyses... To bad...

[The Divine Avenger]

Optimus J wrote...

Relwyn wrote...

As I work in a scientific field for a living, a sample of 50 000 is overkill for any scientific study when extrapolating the results of the statistics onto a larger population. Normally a study has a few hundred or a few thousand individuals participating because it is enough to make conclusions based on the statistical analysis.

A sample size of tens of thousands is simply put overkill in terms of statistics. Studies with such a sample size are on a continental or national scale. While the poll itself is simply put a poll and nothing more, it's limited in some ways - however: Anyone who sees it at Bioware is probably lighting a cigarette with shaky hands because they know that the poll is a good indication of the public's view of the game's ending. 

To do as IGN and other organizations (including Bioware) have done and call it a minority or try to downplay the size of the community which thinks the ending is terrible is to be intellectually disingenuous/dishonest. 

While they do their PR-shell game for now (which they can only keep up for so long, sooner or later they'll have to come clean), I'll shamelessely Hold the Line.

I worked in the same terms in the past, and I second your affirmations.

First the 50K sample is ENORMOUS. Second is that arithmetic is being used wrongly as you point.They are comparing the number of people that voiced their opinion to the number of people that supposedly could.

This ignores completely that some of these people are voicing their opinion IN FAVOR of Bioware. So if the against are a vocal minorinity, the in favor are a trace.

NO, that sample MUST BE EXTRAPOLATED as you point. The fact is that 98% of the people that voluntarily voice their opinions are AGAINST Bioware. There is no reason to believe that those who don't voice are the opposite in proportions than their own PR department FAITH.

So don't let this circular logic fool you guys, we SCIENTIFICALLY have no reason to believe that very few don't like the end, we have reason to believe that at least 4 out of each 5 DON'T LIKE.

And AGAIN I stress the reasoning of why Bioware should stop tto waste energy in this effort of PR: No matter what you believe you accomplished in terms of opinion, at the time you fire the DLCs on the business plan it will backfire on your face and people will not buy your content, because you made it pointless.

Indeed well said both, if indeed we are the so called "Vocal Minority" then why has Mass Effect come down in price so soon after it's release. They are just trying to get us to back down by making us think there is no hope of success, however I don't  think they realise that at least 90% of mean what we say. I for one know that I have no intention of buying another Bioware game if the endings do not get fixed. Even if they do then I proberbly still won't buy another of there games because of there insistance of annoying there loyal fanbase DA & ME have both suffered in the past few years. Untill I see some change for the better then I will not be supporting them, my faith in Bioware has completely gone.

[Nexis7]

not gonna lie this was a fun read lmao.

[Suntr0]

Twiggyrez wrote...

another proof of the PR damage control http://bit.ly/xxOD72

For those who don't understand french, it's a contest where you can win Nvidia graphic card, a SSV Normandy maquette or the Mass Effect 3 game

I don't think Bioware is involved with that contest at all. 

[kegNeggs]

fascinating read. I'll do what I can.

[Twiggyrez]

Suntr0 wrote...

Twiggyrez wrote...

another proof of the PR damage control http://bit.ly/xxOD72

For those who don't understand french, it's a contest where you can win Nvidia graphic card, a SSV Normandy maquette or the Mass Effect 3 game

I don't think Bioware is involved with that contest at all. 

It's sponsored by EA and Nvidia

[cokohpuffs41]

After catching up on some more reading on these forums and the links to outside articles within, I want to comment on a couple disturbing topics regarding what's going on currently with Mass Effect 3 and its ending.

1)  Comments from posters disagreeing on why they didn't enjoy the ending.  From a completely objective numbers standpoint, does it really matter why the ending didn't satisfy people?  According to polls, ~80% of all fans did not find the ending satisfactory.  An 80% failure rate is atrocious in any field.  This is the number that absolutely frightens EA/Bioware.  Let's focus on that without giving them a way to divide our collective.  If the developers thought that the ending would appease, at least, a small majority of people, they were obviously incorrect.  This false assessment should be the underlying message we should be trying to communicate.  Arguing internally about something insignificant to the big picture is counterproductive to what this "movement" is trying to accomplish.  Echoing what Gexora and Redknight38 have said, the fanbase needs cohesion, not bickering within the front lines.

2)  Reading some of these linked articles (many thanks to those google-detectives for keeping the fanbase aware of new articles concerning the fans' goals!), it seems as though a common theme among the media outlets is that if EA/Bioware releases "new" ending DLC, it will set a bad precedent going forward for future game endings.  Taking that argument on face value alone, you cannot argue it's validity.  Think about it a bit more analytically though, and you'll find that it's not as daunting of a precedent as they would have you believe.  

Here's the reasoning:  Let's say after EA/Bioware releases new Ending-DLC and it's a hit (more than 50% of people who bought the game also bought the Ending DLC).  All gaming companies are going to try and exploit this "new" stream of revenue, right?  I mean, it's a copycat world out there.  How many of those games will actually produce a profit from this new model?  Not many.  EA/Bioware is in a position to be able to profit from this situation because of how passionate the fans are about the fiction they provided.  If people weren't attached to the game, why waste money on creating something to please the masses?  How many developers can, in all confidence, take that gamble with all their games? Again, not many.  Disclaimer:  I personally find this hypothetical practice to be, as Brent Knowles -- former Bioware designer -- said, "tacky," but a company's ultimate goal is to make money, right?

Case in point...Prince of Persia...no one cared about the game; therefore, no one cared that they released epilogue DLC.  If there was a stink in the media regarding this tacky practice, it was washed away before the mainstream caught on. On the other end of the spectrum, Fallout 3 and it's ending/epilogue DLC was praised by both the critics and the fans. Why the difference?  People actually cared about Fallout 3 and the fantastic Bioware-esque job Bethesda did in creating a gameworld in which fans were emotionally attached.

Once again, apologies...tl;dr.  Thought I'd help in trying to narrow down our collective focus.  Keep doing what you've all been doing, let your voices be heard, and in the end, we'll all be a part of something that can change the face of developer/consumer relationships in this industry going forward.

[Fingertrip]

Not worth the read. Over-analzing so much on everything.