9972 réponses à ce sujet

[Carnage752]

vigna wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

vigna wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

ReavousX wrote...

How about we keep it simple in regards to PAX? If you attend the panel, and you're lucky enough to get to ask a question, don't say "Hey I'm RandomGuy432 from the BSN, and I'm a part of the Retake Mass Effect movement!"

Ask it as a fan, and be cool (you'll see that this is a frequent phrase of mine). We don't need a SPOKESPERSON to go and ask questions, or have questions asked to them for that matter. Please. That's silly, and probably the worst way to get the conversation between us and Bioware started.

This whole mentality I'm seeing is acting as if we're the only people on the planet who dislike the ending of ME3. I guarantee you that right now there are more people who dislike the ending of ME3 out in the world who will never touch the BSN than there will be here, or in the Facebook group. So, let's not put ourselves in this box where we pretend that only people in this thread or BSN won't like the ME3 ending, or ask questions about it.

I'm not saying that to marginalize our group, trust me on that. An organized 40k is FAR more effective than unorganized masses.

Reavous, you don't get it. We can't just let any random person speak for us. What if that FTC guy was the fan picked out? We have come too far to leave something as trivial as who will speak for us to chance.

But honestly no one has to speak for US. They can just speak for themselves.  All we want is a new ending...it will take time to figure out what is appropriate. that take charts and statistics which are being gathered. the fcat is there is no one thing we want. we all want different things. We only agree that the end ruined the game  or hurt our love for the game. Am I  wrong...maybe I am?    Calculating what people were most disappointed with will take time......Bioware will not be  able to m,ake everyone happy--if they do anything they will look at the charts, see what is doable, adn try to make the most people happy they can.

They won't see it as speaking for themselves. They will see it as speaking for all of us. That's my whole point.

Carnage, i'll end up just agreeing to disagree on that. people don't necessarily need to invoke the name. we aren't a 501c3. the movement is a feeling and what joins us is disatisfaction. What would be said beyond  "we don't like the ending"?   As I stated earlier..we all have different nitpicks about the end, where it goes wrong, at what point it jumps shark, etc.    That's just my POV....and i'm probably wrong. Just chiming in..I'm not trying to be antagonistic or trying to derail this thread at all. so, i'll leave it alone.    I appreciate those people actively working on building polls, flow charts, and gauging  consensus for us. That is what will ultimately win the war--that and media attention, and loss of revenue.

I mean outside sources Vigna. They don't see us as individuals. They see us as a movement. Any ideals we show are the movements ideals in there mind. We get the wrong fan showing the wrong ideals, the media against us will run with it. Have you watched Colin Moriarty's statement on us?

[cyrrant]

Led Guardian wrote...

I'd like to support those opposing the idea of having leaders for the movement. This isn't the same as a popular political movement, it won't benefit from having a 'face' for people to rally behind. People are rallying behind a cause, and that cause more effectively serves as the 'face.'

The strength in this movement is not having one voice speaking for an indefinite number of people, it is in having a large and definite number of people speaking with one voice.

This.  We're all here for the same reason.

[Carnage752]

Totally Not Swaggacide wrote...

I know there a retake me3 twitter but would u guys be interested starting our own sort of a bsn community one?

No.

This is exactly what I am talking about. We need to stay under one banner.

[cyrrant]

Carnage752 wrote...

I mean outside sources Vigna. They don't see us as individuals. They see us as a movement. Any ideals we show are the movements ideals in there mind. We get the wrong fan showing the wrong ideals, the media against us will run with it. Have you watched Colin Moriarty's statement on us?

I've heard rumblings that Colin's video got taken down, and that IGN now has a poll up on their facebook that is surprisingly neutral on the subject.  atghunter told us this would happen, the media switches to a more neutral ground to try and not be seen siding with the loser.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

[MajorUhlan]

Shepard needs a Vacation wrote...

This podcast says it all
http://theparanoidga...-bioware-oh-my/

Yoink, listening now... thank you for the link!

[vigna]

Led Guardian wrote...

I'd like to support those opposing the idea of having leaders for the movement. This isn't the same as a popular political movement, it won't benefit from having a 'face' for people to rally behind. People are rallying behind a cause, and that cause more effectively serves as the 'face.'

The strength in this movement is not having one voice speaking for an indefinite number of people, it is in having a large and definite number of people speaking with one voice.

Also people being organized in behavior and belief is harder to attack and misrepresent  than an actual organization.

Modifié par vigna, 19 mars 2012 - 03:05 .

[Carnage752]

cyrrant wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

I mean outside sources Vigna. They don't see us as individuals. They see us as a movement. Any ideals we show are the movements ideals in there mind. We get the wrong fan showing the wrong ideals, the media against us will run with it. Have you watched Colin Moriarty's statement on us?

I've heard rumblings that Colin's video got taken down, and that IGN now has a poll up on their facebook that is surprisingly neutral on the subject.  atghunter told us this would happen, the media switches to a more neutral ground to try and not be seen siding with the loser.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

It's still on youtube. Watch the dislike bar for a laugh XP

[Hydralysk]

cyrrant wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

I mean outside sources Vigna. They don't see us as individuals. They see us as a movement. Any ideals we show are the movements ideals in there mind. We get the wrong fan showing the wrong ideals, the media against us will run with it. Have you watched Colin Moriarty's statement on us?

I've heard rumblings that Colin's video got taken down, and that IGN now has a poll up on their facebook that is surprisingly neutral on the subject.  atghunter told us this would happen, the media switches to a more neutral ground to try and not be seen siding with the loser.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

That is not true, I saw someone show a link to the mobile page that wasn't working but the video is still live on ign.com

Modifié par Hydralysk, 19 mars 2012 - 03:06 .

[Razorsteel]

Led Guardian wrote...

I'd like to support those opposing the idea of having leaders for the movement. This isn't the same as a popular political movement, it won't benefit from having a 'face' for people to rally behind. People are rallying behind a cause, and that cause more effectively serves as the 'face.'

The strength in this movement is not having one voice speaking for an indefinite number of people, it is in having a large and definite number of people speaking with one voice.

Agreed.   We need to heed the old sage atghunter's advice.

[Tyrannis Vos]

I don't like the idea of someone being our "leader". I think the closest anyone should get to leading us is by organizing events with others. Groups of organizers would be ideal, I think.

I DO like the idea of all of us being educated on the subject enough to be able to politely and accurately define what it is we do not like and what it is we would like to see from Bioware/EA. This may be a little too optimistic, but who knows. I think we each just need to be smart enough to be able to speak for the entire group if we needed to.

The thing with a leader is that there are tons of people who feel as we do who will not visit BSN or even know about it.

I feel having a leader from BSN lessens their importance. I also feel it lessens the importance of all our voices. I feel we're all in this together as equals and we need to be represented as such - by each of us repeating our opinions, wishes and concerns to keep the word out there and the pressure on Bioware/EA.

[ReavousX]

cyrrant wrote...

ReavousX wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...
But there is a way to control it. If we designate who is speaking for us, they can't use any random angry fans opinions against us.

I can tell you right now that because of the nature of this movement, and how, remember, a key component of our complaints revolve around personal choice, and our own personal narratives, a LOT of people won't be happy with having other people "designate" someone to speak for them.

We're better off not touching this unless it becomes a real problem.

You underestimate how Bioware will play to our emotions if they find out we are letting any random fan speak his mind. They will attempt to agitate, or if they want to go too far, plant someone to make a big fuss and make us look bad.

They want our PR ruined so people don't listen to us. They will exploit any loose end we have. We can't risk that.

Carnage, I think the key point you're missing is that there will be many fans, not necessarily from the Retake movement, asking questions.  It's a big, open forum kind of thing.  Policing the fans there is...not an option. lol

So again, I'd suggest that we float around the idea of just making a statement that no one from Retake will be making any sort of statement/question at PAX, and close the book on it.  

I guess I'll join a lively discussion then.  This particular idea of disavowing any sort of official statement at PAX may need to be revised given that it's a prime place to pick up sympathetic media with a well-thought-out argument.  That being said, electing someone as a leader is not necessarily viable given just how diverse a movement we have going on here.  Might I suggest that we have the guy organizing the PAX trip distribute a list of talking points?  Maybe they meet up the day before and ask each other the hard questions to prepare the answers they will need.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

If we could do it right, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of having the people who meet up have some points/questions on hand to ask that we would all like to have addressed.  

The thing there is, if the group did tag their questions/discussions with the Retake name, what happens if media takes that chance to speak with them?  I'd like to think that all involved would be incredibly professional and mature, and do us justice.  But, who knows how it would go, and who knows how we'd look coming out of there.  

When I look at the risk/reward, I think we might be better off holding the line as is, rather than pushing in any sort of "official" manner.

[cyrrant]

ReavousX wrote...

If we could do it right, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of having the people who meet up have some points/questions on hand to ask that we would all like to have addressed.  

The thing there is, if the group did tag their questions/discussions with the Retake name, what happens if media takes that chance to speak with them?  I'd like to think that all involved would be incredibly professional and mature, and do us justice.  But, who knows how it would go, and who knows how we'd look coming out of there.  

When I look at the risk/reward, I think we might be better off holding the line as is, rather than pushing in any sort of "official" manner.

I think part of the problem picking an "official" spokesperson here on the web is that we don't have any real interaction with whoever it is.  If one of the Retakers at whatever pre-PAX meetup is highly intelligent, eloquent, and able to speak in a coherent fashion, then an on-the-spot nomination for official PAX spokesman wouldn't be too objectionable.  Then if media approaches a single member of the group at PAX, the (temporary!) spokesman can be ushered forward.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

[Captiosus77]

TheLostGenius wrote...
The ending was a disaster, but if it wasn't it would have been selling out the entire story arch for fan pandering. In real life love is often times tragic, issues with people feeling bad about losing their LIs in the game is very interesting, because this happens to everyone in actual life, and a game made you feel this loss, thats a very new thing for this medium. Real life never has happy endings, just happy times, and Shepard has these with his friends and crew mates...though you as the role player command his identity in many ways.

While I understand where you're coming from, I disagree that having the option of having a sunshine-and-rainbows ending (which would have to be undoubtedly difficult to achieve) would be construed as "pandering". In a way, I feel that our current crop of endings, where they're all forced to be "tragic", is a continued overuse of a cliche that has been used far too frequently in modern cinema, literature, and even gaming. In a sense, that is pandering, as well.

That said, if someone views their Shepard as a tragic hero, by all means, they should have an option that allows them to play as such. If someone sees their Shepard as a victorious renegade antihero (since Shep can't truly be a villain), that should be an option as well. And if someone wants to work to get the happiest possible ending, that should be accomodated, too.

As many have said, video games are equal parts entertainment and escapism. I don't need to play through 100+ hours of a series to be reminded that real life sucks and then you die. At least give me the option of continuing to play Shepard as I have throughout the other parts of the series, not just three tragic ends that all end with identical with plot hole induced cliffhangers.

Personally,  I probably would have played my Shepard to be a tragic hero, dying at the end if it meant ensuring the survival of the galaxy. While, technically, I can do that with these endings, they leave too many questions about what I actually achieved, and too few choices to determine my own fate.

[Luiginius]

Led Guardian wrote...

I'd like to support those opposing the idea of having leaders for the movement. This isn't the same as a popular political movement, it won't benefit from having a 'face' for people to rally behind. People are rallying behind a cause, and that cause more effectively serves as the 'face.'

The strength in this movement is not having one voice speaking for an indefinite number of people, it is in having a large and definite number of people speaking with one voice.

This is the viewpoint that is closes to my heart. All this thing really is people making the games judging cost / timetables / story outlines   against  possible loss of future revenue. That's all that this comes down to in the end. 
If they see a benefit in taking the many reasons why the ending dissappointed into account when the next project is started, they will. If they don't see a financial benefit for it, they won't. Period.


So stay realistic and stay positive.

[vigna]

Carnage752 wrote...

vigna wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

vigna wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

ReavousX wrote...

How about we keep it simple in regards to PAX? If you attend the panel, and you're lucky enough to get to ask a question, don't say "Hey I'm RandomGuy432 from the BSN, and I'm a part of the Retake Mass Effect movement!"

Ask it as a fan, and be cool (you'll see that this is a frequent phrase of mine). We don't need a SPOKESPERSON to go and ask questions, or have questions asked to them for that matter. Please. That's silly, and probably the worst way to get the conversation between us and Bioware started.

This whole mentality I'm seeing is acting as if we're the only people on the planet who dislike the ending of ME3. I guarantee you that right now there are more people who dislike the ending of ME3 out in the world who will never touch the BSN than there will be here, or in the Facebook group. So, let's not put ourselves in this box where we pretend that only people in this thread or BSN won't like the ME3 ending, or ask questions about it.

I'm not saying that to marginalize our group, trust me on that. An organized 40k is FAR more effective than unorganized masses.

Reavous, you don't get it. We can't just let any random person speak for us. What if that FTC guy was the fan picked out? We have come too far to leave something as trivial as who will speak for us to chance.

But honestly no one has to speak for US. They can just speak for themselves.  All we want is a new ending...it will take time to figure out what is appropriate. that take charts and statistics which are being gathered. the fcat is there is no one thing we want. we all want different things. We only agree that the end ruined the game  or hurt our love for the game. Am I  wrong...maybe I am?    Calculating what people were most disappointed with will take time......Bioware will not be  able to m,ake everyone happy--if they do anything they will look at the charts, see what is doable, adn try to make the most people happy they can.

They won't see it as speaking for themselves. They will see it as speaking for all of us. That's my whole point.

Carnage, i'll end up just agreeing to disagree on that. people don't necessarily need to invoke the name. we aren't a 501c3. the movement is a feeling and what joins us is disatisfaction. What would be said beyond  "we don't like the ending"?   As I stated earlier..we all have different nitpicks about the end, where it goes wrong, at what point it jumps shark, etc.    That's just my POV....and i'm probably wrong. Just chiming in..I'm not trying to be antagonistic or trying to derail this thread at all. so, i'll leave it alone.    I appreciate those people actively working on building polls, flow charts, and gauging  consensus for us. That is what will ultimately win the war--that and media attention, and loss of revenue.

I mean outside sources Vigna. They don't see us as individuals. They see us as a movement. Any ideals we show are the movements ideals in there mind. We get the wrong fan showing the wrong ideals, the media against us will run with it. Have you watched Colin Moriarty's statement on us?

yes, . but voices like his are getting naturally drowned out because they are untrue.  the more organized in structure we become then  the more stuff like FTC guy affects us negatively. The more organized the more that will happen. no one can stop that from happening. Irresponsible media will simply say what they want and push teh agenda they want. that can't be helped.

When I say organized..i mean presdient, treasurer,  leaders, etc.

[marshkoala]

@ReavousX and Carnage752
I have a quick question and forgive my ignorance but are either of you part of the Retake Mass Effect group?

Has anyone ever been to a PAX East event? I haven't and am not quite sure of the set-up. Is it like Comic-Con in San Diego where hundreds of fans gather in a room in front of a panel?

Also I believe NAWhisperBlade stated that he wasn't suggesting anyone follow his list but just explaining how you fight(not with fists)a solidly entrenced opponent. Bioware is a huge company and for the last week and a half have been engaging in a PR attack as described by atghunter.
I inferred he was just trying to help.

[vigna]

i would also like to take this opportunity to say Hold The Line.

And also apologize for my laptop being fried. i am typing on a noteboook and my fingers were not meant for a notebook apparently.

[MajorUhlan]

marshkoala wrote...

@ReavousX and Carnage752
I have a quick question and forgive my ignorance but are either of you part of the Retake Mass Effect group?

Has anyone ever been to a PAX East event? I haven't and am not quite sure of the set-up. Is it like Comic-Con in San Diego where hundreds of fans gather in a room in front of a panel?

Also I believe NAWhisperBlade stated that he wasn't suggesting anyone follow his list but just explaining how you fight(not with fists)a solidly entrenced opponent. Bioware is a huge company and for the last week and a half have been engaging in a PR attack as described by atghunter.
I inferred he was just trying to help.

ArmyKnifeX is organizing something for PAX East if you want to chat with him too. Here is the group link: http://social.bioware.com/group/7049/

[Hydralysk]

marshkoala wrote...
Also I believe NAWhisperBlade stated that he wasn't suggesting anyone follow his list but just explaining how you fight(not with fists)a solidly entrenced opponent. Bioware is a huge company and for the last week and a half have been engaging in a PR attack as described by atghunter.
I inferred he was just trying to help.

I don't believe anyone implied differently, we may not agree with what he's saying but we certainly didn't attack him in any way I can see.

Modifié par Hydralysk, 19 mars 2012 - 03:17 .

[ReavousX]

cyrrant wrote...

ReavousX wrote...

If we could do it right, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of having the people who meet up have some points/questions on hand to ask that we would all like to have addressed.  

The thing there is, if the group did tag their questions/discussions with the Retake name, what happens if media takes that chance to speak with them?  I'd like to think that all involved would be incredibly professional and mature, and do us justice.  But, who knows how it would go, and who knows how we'd look coming out of there.  

When I look at the risk/reward, I think we might be better off holding the line as is, rather than pushing in any sort of "official" manner.

I think part of the problem picking an "official" spokesperson here on the web is that we don't have any real interaction with whoever it is.  If one of the Retakers at whatever pre-PAX meetup is highly intelligent, eloquent, and able to speak in a coherent fashion, then an on-the-spot nomination for official PAX spokesman wouldn't be too objectionable.  Then if media approaches a single member of the group at PAX, the (temporary!) spokesman can be ushered forward.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

Again, risk/reward is brutal here.  Lots left to chance.  Something I think COULD work though, is if we drafted a statement aimed at Bioware for PAX, and let THAT be the message conveyed.  It would be a big effort that takes a great deal of time, but we could totally do that.  

Create the top points and present them concisely, in a well written format, then when the general consensus is "Hey, that's pretty good!" we can publish it on all of Retake's platforms, and the folks going to PAX can take it with them.  If they're asked anything, or ask anything, the statement should be the go to piece when it comes to Retake's stance on things when it comes to Bioware at PAX.

I've been trying to rally folks to also create a concise list of demands as well, but things get buried so fast.  That'd be figured out via Google Doc survey, I would think.

[Boceephus]

I don't know which hall PAX will hold the bioware panel at, but if it's the main one there will be hundreds if not thousands of people in there. To think you can control the questions asked in anyway is unfortunately bordering the impossible. Some people WILL make us look like fools, some people WILL be plants, you should accept that now and just focus on what you CAN control: Getting as many Retakers/PAX platooners as possible into the lineups to ask questions that are civil, intelligent, and open ended.... which might still very well be brushed off by their PR experts.

[Nightfire78]

TheLostGenius wrote...

vigna wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

I think its great that this game has riled up such a huge controversy, but at the same time I don't understand why the minority detractors to the ending (who are VERY vocal online) are so offended that some people actually really liked the ending, and thought it was very cool and high concept sci fi? That maybe after a Galactic Holocaust your LI and some decisions you made would probably be twisted into ashes in the wind?

Masterwork in emotional and expository storytelling, The ending is the real deal. I love Marauder Shields though, hes a good spokes person for you folks.

many of us are envious that people liked the ending. It would be easier than not liking it. seriously.

THe game teases the ideal ending fairly consistently throughout part 3. That what makes the ending so affecting. If you think of the level of destruction the Reaper entities pose, its hard pressed to say that the "big decisions" you made in the earlier games really were all that affective. 

Before ME3 you accomplish two major victories against the nemesis entity, The Reapers.

1. You stop Soverign the Vanguard Of The Citadel from opening up the relays, thus delaying the invasion and adding a little bit more hope to the possibility of defeating them.

2. Defeating the indoctrinated Collector's, essentially once again slowing down the beginning of the invasion, occupation, and mass holocaust/genetic harvesting of all species. 

The ending was a disaster, but if it wasn't it would have been selling out the entire story arch for fan pandering. In real life love is often times tragic, issues with people feeling bad about losing their LIs in the game is very interesting, because this happens to everyone in actual life, and a game made you feel this loss, thats a very new thing for this medium. Real life never has happy endings, just happy times, and Shepard has these with his friends and crew mates...though you as the role player command his identity in many ways.

For example on my Renegade playthrough I murdered Mordin, and so one of the most beautifully orchestrated and emotionally impactful cutscenes (from all the build up and the presentation) I've ever seen ina  video game.:happy:

I think the point for many of us is that it *didn't* make you feel the loss (and living happily ever after with the LI or not isn't really the issue), and it *didn't* make you feel the win (or loss, not really even sure which it is) over the reapers, it just made us think "WTH??!!?"

Mordin sacrificed himself in mine, and I will admit that I teared up when he died. I felt it and it was beautifully done. I don't think anyone is arguing for a change to that part even though we all love Mordin and it's horribly sad that he has to die *because* it is a powerful scene and it is amazingly well done...

If the ending had actually touched me in such a way, then I wouldn't be here posting (whether Shep dies or not, hooks up with the LI after the win or not etc.) I would perhaps think to myself "darn, I wish Shep could have lived and adopted krogan babies with Garrus" but I would accept it if I saw how the galaxy was bettered for her sacrifice and her friends were able to have good lives through her sacrifice and her sacrifice made any sense whatsoever. The ending isn't a disaster because it's a disaster and you feel loss, it's a disaster because it's a disaster that doesn't make sense and doesn't make you feel anything except confused.... for me, anyway.

I respect, of course, that people are different and that for some people it will have evoked an emotional response they approve of for the ending of an epic tale like this, I am just trying to clarify the issue as it is for me and I understand it to be for many others here because I notice that many people who post in these forums about the fact that they like the ending (and more power to you if you do) seem to think the problem is that we don't get to hang out with our LI's after or something, which it really, truly isn't.

Anyway, I'm happy for you folks who haven't felt the disappointment, saddly it doesn't and can't change the fact that we do. Any new ending content can always be optional so as not to disturb those who like the ending as is, I don't think any of us are interested in forcing what we consider a better ending on people who think the current ending is great. Really we just want the option to also feel good about the game as you apparently do with the current ending, and we just can't with the current ending.

Okay, this got longer than intended. Sorry

Holding the line with a great wall of words! :innocent:

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

Is it true EA/BW are being sued by fans for the ending?

[cyrrant]

ReavousX wrote...

cyrrant wrote...

ReavousX wrote...

If we could do it right, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of having the people who meet up have some points/questions on hand to ask that we would all like to have addressed.  

The thing there is, if the group did tag their questions/discussions with the Retake name, what happens if media takes that chance to speak with them?  I'd like to think that all involved would be incredibly professional and mature, and do us justice.  But, who knows how it would go, and who knows how we'd look coming out of there.  

When I look at the risk/reward, I think we might be better off holding the line as is, rather than pushing in any sort of "official" manner.

I think part of the problem picking an "official" spokesperson here on the web is that we don't have any real interaction with whoever it is.  If one of the Retakers at whatever pre-PAX meetup is highly intelligent, eloquent, and able to speak in a coherent fashion, then an on-the-spot nomination for official PAX spokesman wouldn't be too objectionable.  Then if media approaches a single member of the group at PAX, the (temporary!) spokesman can be ushered forward.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

Again, risk/reward is brutal here.  Lots left to chance.  Something I think COULD work though, is if we drafted a statement aimed at Bioware for PAX, and let THAT be the message conveyed.  It would be a big effort that takes a great deal of time, but we could totally do that.  

Create the top points and present them concisely, in a well written format, then when the general consensus is "Hey, that's pretty good!" we can publish it on all of Retake's platforms, and the folks going to PAX can take it with them.  If they're asked anything, or ask anything, the statement should be the go to piece when it comes to Retake's stance on things when it comes to Bioware at PAX.

I've been trying to rally folks to also create a concise list of demands as well, but things get buried so fast.  That'd be figured out via Google Doc survey, I would think.

I'll consider myself swayed by your idea.  Having an official statement lets you leave it with the media without the risk of someone shooting their mouth off.  If Bioware can have official statements, so can we.  It's all the same PR game in the end.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

[jellobell]

Totally Not Swaggacide wrote...

Is it true EA/BW are being sued by fans for the ending?

No. One guy reported them to the FTC but nobody's taking him seriously.

Modifié par jellobell, 19 mars 2012 - 03:23 .