9972 réponses à ce sujet

[Radwar]

atghunter wrote...

Good Morning (here), Afternoon, Evening All,
 
Taking a few quiet moments here at work to briefly check in. As always, my compliments to everyone for keeping a civil and very interesting thread going. Only a couple of things really to look at atm:
 
New Developments vs Miscues: Late last night, Bioware had to head off a minor PR storm when one of their employees posted there were no plans for a new ending. First, could this have been the truth or another ruse de guerre by some clever PR guy wanting to stick his toe in the water to see how quickly they’d get a response? Anything is possible and without more data, my opinion is as good as the next. The response by the fan base was (putting it mildly) a touch negative. The Bioware/EA response was the real fascinating thing to watch. Bioware almost immediately scrubbed the post, sent their arguably most well-liked spokesperson (Ms. Merizan) out to quell the crowd personally, apologized on Facebook, and sent sweepers into the forums to quickly lock a number of associated threads all in the space of roughly one hour in the middle of the night on a Sunday here in the States! 
 
In short, while the message was probably a miscue, the response tells you that they are watching this whole thing like hawks and reacting to things almost in real time. That just isn’t easy to orchestrate. While Bioware is certainly still mostly in “bunker” mode evaluating data from the weekend, reviewing projections, etc, they are clearly ignoring very little atm. Does it mean change will come? Not necessarily (But as a dissatisfied consumer, I personally remain hopeful). Does it mean you should keep letting your voice be heard? Absolutely. New week, new news cycle, and more analysis of data.
 
Silence isn’t Always Golden: Someone touched on this last night and it jogged my memory (remember folks, I’m older and occasionally prone to forget). Rudimentary PR response is deflection and bunker (as mentioned before) to tamp down the outcry and protect to corporate core. That said, silence isn’t always golden. Does the negative consumer reaction currently sweeping the social media represent a majority of the customer base? Not sure if even Bioware/EA knows atm and I sure don’t. But the outcry does pretty clearly represent the majority of vocal (and invested) fans (i.e. the loyal base). The retake message here seems mostly consistent (i.e its the product folks are dissatisfied with, they want the company to fix the product, and re-establish a good consumer/business relationship). 
 
Casual consumers may buy your product, but are often less inclined to purchase pre-order, buy memorabilia, and sing your praises to anyone who will listen. The loyal base will. They will buy models, talk the game up at conventions, and act as an incredibly strong advertising resource. As the bunker mentality wears on, the noise may die down, but it also stands a good chance of turning galvanized unhappy consumers who hope for a dialogue and compromise into disenfranchised former customers who loose faith in the consumer/business relationship. At best those people become casual potential customers of your future products. At worst, they’ll become adversaries. Someone once said:
 
The worst enemy a man can face is a former friend.
 
Why? Because it’s personal. At some point, people will no longer care about the deflection-style public overtures to listen by Bioware and faux olive branches. They’ll take their bags (and loyalty) and move on. Does Bioware/EA wish this whole thing would go away? You don’t have to be a PR guy to know the answer to that is of course. Do they want to try and find some way to salvage this disconnect and protect the bottom line? Again, of course. 
 
I can only extol everyone to stay involved in this dialogue no matter what side you are one and use your voice (as long as you individually wish of course). Take breaks, but keep on keeping on. Why? Because you are consumers and just as this is ultimately about the bottom line for Bioware/EA, its about where you spend your money and interest in the future as well. As a very dissatisfied consumer, do I still hope Bioware/EA will address this? Absolutely. But even if the end of this becomes “Brokering Solutions but Delivering Stonewalls” this outcry will be talked about in various circles for years. The social media has been amazing in letting people come together from around the world, a charity has benefited, I watched people on this thread engage in some of the most insightful and supportive discourse I’ve ever seen, and each of your who have spoken up have sent a clear message to the gaming industry that will likely become a cautionary tale in PR circles. /salute  
 
Stay strong, stay civil, stay passionate no matter what side you favor and keep well!  Time to get back to work.
       

Another great post,
keep it up guys, hold the line!

[Ytook]

I for one feel that Bioware could quite easily use the 'indoctrination' theory for the ending, no need to change whats there just follow on from the end showing that it was a ploy by harbinger. The theory works so well, particularly with the extra scene that the 'destroy synthetics' option gives, it almost make me wonder if it was not the intention all along.

Hold the Line!

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

Hold the line for as long as it takes people.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

PR probably won't announce anything important or non-noncommittal today, but nevertheless, I'm probably not going to get much done at work today due to keeping my eyeballs glued to the forums.

[Xandurpein]

I think it's important to note that most of us genuinely care for the Mass Effect Universe and by extension for Bioware who created it. I have always been one of Bioware's greatest fans and I would like nothing better than to broker some kind of peace with them. Hell, I would respect Bioware more if one of the lead designers explained why they thought this ending was good, than if I just get stonewalled. As long as Bioware is just in bunker mode there's no dialogue. I know it's ultimately a business and they have a lot of money invested in this, but at some point Bioware has to open a serious dialogue with their fanbase about this or, as atghunter wrote, we will move on. Personally I think that as long as this and similar threads keep growing here, it's because the fans still have hope to salvage things. If the movement dies and the threads go silent, it may look good for the PR guys, but in reality everybody loses, because it will just mean that Bioware truly lost their fans.

[vigna]

byzantine horse wrote...

Drasoini wrote...
Going from memory, not from fact, so lets make that clear up front.

But I believe the Best Buy associate's response was "Hold the Line."

Sorry, but I don't get it.

I think it was 2 days ago. A guy returned his copy of ME3 to Best Buy. The CSR asked why? Did he not like it, did he already play it? He replied  both...then the CSR said "Hold The Line!"

[Xivai]

This is an insightful post with a new look at the situation.

[Mr Indivisible]

Saved from another thread.


1) Remain polite and positive, but firm on your positions. Don't flame or rant, even when you want to. We're right about the endings. They really are incoherent, underdeveloped, and unworthy of the franchise we love. We don't need to rail at the unfairness of it all, or make personal attacks to get that point across. Being reasonable is almost always the best way to win an argument.
Many of the people supporting the endings on BSN are probably doing so for amusement value. Disagree, logically, and then move on. If you want to make a point and are willing, consider donating just a few bucks (or quid, or euros, or whatever) to the Child's play protest charity project (http://retakemasseff...ect-childs-play). As of the time of this writing, it was approaching $70k in donations. If we can get to $100k, there will almost certainly be a whole new round of media coverage (media like round numbers).

2) Don't feed the trolls. People post outrageous statements like "ending is best ever!!!" just to provoke responses. If those threads stay at the top of the page because everyone is flaming back, that give the false impression that people support this perspective. It also makes us look extreme and silly when we get angry in our responses. Instead, just consider roll your eyes and downgrading the star rating, or reporting the post as trolling.

3) Impact Bioware's Bottom Line. Bioware will try to make money from us in three ways: buying new games, buying DLC, and purchasing things with Bioware points. Try not to do any of those things, and make a point whenever possible of telling Bioware *why* you aren't doing those things. Right now, there are three things you can do easily: 1) either don't play multiplayer or play it, and don't buy packs with Bioware points, 2) Don't buy DLC until they fix the end, and 3) don't recommend the game to friends (for now).

4) Make your voice heard elsewhere, especially on Metacritic. When I worked for EA we were very sensitive to metacritic reviews, both player and press. As fans, we can directly affect player reviews by going and giving nuanced, specific critiques and low, but reasonable, scores. If you felt that the ending ruined the game, say in your review what you *would* have given the game had the endings not sucked. We can also affect press reviews by making our voices heard on youtube and whenever press coverage of the issue occurs. Note the downward trend in reviews since we started getting attention. There's a strong herd mentality among reviewers (for lots of reasons, some good, some not). If we make it clear that a lot of people are unhappy, future reviewers are likely to make more nuanced judgments about the overall experience of the game, instead of drinking IGN's kool-aid.

5) Don't swear eternal vendetta on Bioware. Stay focused on what you *want* to happen, not what's happened in the past. A "win" for us is if Bioware recognizes their error and responds to fan feedback by addressing our concerns with new or revised content. If they do that, they should be rewarded with our loyalty, approval, and cash. Saying "I'm never buying another Bioware game," even if they believe you, isn't productive. If you're out of the market, there's no reason for them to care about you or your opinions. Instead, consider saying that you'd "love to buy more Bioware products, just as soon as they recognize and correct previous mistakes with ME3."

6) Be active when it's easy to do so. Be sure to support threads you like, even if it's only an "/agree" or "^this." Active threads stay at the top of the page and tend to drive discussion. You don't have to write a ten page tome in response to a thread, just keep it active so it stays at the top. If you've already invested the time to read a thread, take ten extra seconds to make your opinion known.

7) Don't get burned out. This is a long-run kind of effort. Realistically speaking, even if Bioware decided internally that they were going to release an "ending fix" DLC, It'd take weeks or months to prepare. Our staying power is going to be really important. That doesn't mean you have to post here every day, but check back regularly from time to time and chip in. If you do lose interest, remember to check back in and make your displeasure known when Bioware *does* release DLC, unless it addresses the concerns we've raised. Do the same whenever they say something officially that doesn't acknowledge our concerns.

[Chronor]

musicaleCA wrote...

IchikoSakura wrote...

musicaleCA wrote...

Chronor wrote...

Just an observation with respect to the Mass Relays.

The lore, as presented, always alluded to the Mass Relays and derivative technology therefrom as being a restricting element for the galactic species as a whole. Meaning, mass relay technology directs you to a certain path of development dictated by the Reapers.

In a sense, the destruction of the mass relays can be seen as a liberating element for all civilization to live/develope into their full potential.

This is not to say that the ending (singular) is good. Far from it, and it has plenty of other plot holes. But I just wanted to point that out before people state "destruction of Mass Relays" is in and of itself a fatal flaw to the ending (singular).

Choices Matter - Holding the Line

Maybe, but it's not like anyone has any viable alternatives. The Protheans almost figured-out how to build their own, and that would've allowed them to develop in different, possibly unpredictable ways. There are even some in this cycle who wanted to build their own relays (Matriarch what's-her-name on Illium...the barkeep). Breaking the mold would happen eventually, and without the "boom, HAHAHAHA PRETTY COLOURS, whoops...guess that means mass holocaust..." ending.

@musicaleCA
You are the first to mention it on this thread I believe, but after the first shockwave of the "ending" died in me I was thinking the same, there might be a way to rebuild the relays
But if Arrival is cannon then the relays just whiped out big parts of the known and colonized/inhabited solarsystems ... which bugs me really that BioWare had to end it that way

I was suggesting that without the current endings, maybe they could've built their own eventually and the cycle could be broken. Civilization would evolve in different ways than the Reapers planned.

But, the galactic economy has gone boom with these endings. It'd make our current recession look like a cakewalk. Everyone dies, then end, roll credits. The absurdity of it all...is why BW needs all this PR damage control in the first place... </obvious attempt to get back on track>

What you guys are discussing is to me one of the plot holes in the this whole debacle.  For me, this journey had always been about HOPE, as frail as that may be.  My Shepard, being who he is, is always striving for that glimmer of hope that "By God, I will do my damndest to make sure the galaxy lives!"  This craptastic ending did not even give the player any sort of satisfaction.  The destruction of the Mass Relays is just one of the reasons.  It might have been different if they somehow explained that this raindow god-ray did not in fact destroy the mass relays but used them to transmit a Reaper death ray, I could buy that.  It would also be more poignant if the relays "died" (as in not explode) after transmission.  This way, there's still a glimmer of hope except that the relays themselves would not be operational for the foreseeable future.

[Optimus J]

OK, seriously Bioware, using the turtle strategy isn't working. Your opposition is not getting tred, it's multiplying while you try to hide under a shell. You will suffocate and die under that.You know the saying "if you can't beat them, join them".

Quickly, it's already late for some of you, but not for all.Those who already know they will sink must show at least SOME respect for those who can stay.

[Captiosus77]

Thornne wrote...
This is really one of the most fascinating aspects of this debacle, for me.  I think it exposed just how shallow many industry game reviews really are.

In all honesty, I stopped following "game journalists" when they started giving GTA4 10's/100's while downplaying legitimate issues with the game that would have, if it had been any other game, dropped the score down.

Remember years ago when movie studios got busted "creating" reviewers to shill for their movies? They'd create these blurbs and attach them to the advertising for the movie - until it was discovered that they weren't real at all. The state of game journalism is in a much worse place than that. Publications like GameInformer and OXM/OPM (I guess I also have to mention the laughable Best Buy @Gamer) exist by companies who have a direct interest in promoting games: It's their bread-and-butter profits. GameInformer has a vested interest in giving highly anticipated games high scores and then directing people to GameStop to buy them.

So that leaves these internet sites and print publications that are not tied to the industry. Yet they, overwhelmingly, exist on advertisement revenue, and that revenue comes from targeted sources. Since the sites discuss video gaming, the preponderance of advertisements come from publishers and developers of video games. Now these sites are stuck in a situation where their continued existance relies on the good graces of the publishers they're trying to review, because if they are overly negative, advertising dollars dry up and they fizzle out of existance. Back to GTA4 and when I realized how bad it had become: IGN, while simultaneously giving GTA4 a perfect score (even as they pointed out its flaws), had converted their entire background to a GTA4 advertisement.

To complicate these sites further is this (relatively) new "review embargo" system where publishers force reviewers into NDAs or face punishments. This puts reviewers behind the 8-ball because now they can't really discuss the game until a given date (usually the day the game launches; earlier if they curry favor from the publisher), thus forcing them into rushing to meet their deadlines. See the point above: They can't be overly negative or they risk losing future review opportunities and advertising revenue.

"Game journalism", as a whole, is a corrupt mess.

Modifié par Captiosus77, 19 mars 2012 - 04:24 .

[RogueFreer]

I've got to say, I've been keeping tabs on this thread, or rather the opening post as it has been updated, it's been genuinely interesting, well written and has given me a useful insight into the world of PR.

I'm more than impressed by the responses people have given, atghunters analysis and the entire campaign. It's certainly kept my interest for the last few days!

[MinatheBrat]

MDT1 wrote...

I don't get it why people insist we have a bittersweet ending?
What is sweet in galactic mass genocide?

That is a damn good question!!

[Tirranek]

{Messed up format.}

Modifié par Tirranek, 19 mars 2012 - 04:26 .

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

Hold the line for as long as it takes people.

[ffreak00]

German fleet holding the line!

[Tirranek]

I ask of you one question:

Does the end taint the moments that came before it? Do you see yourself replaying this game knowing your choices do not matter in the end? Is it the journey, the destination, or both that matter?

Those arguments against the ending are very rational, and I agree with most of them. Introducing a new power so late in the game was largely unnecessary, though I wouldn't say it undermined things all that much. You get the impression it's a dormant power that set things in motion, only activated when circumstances came together to prove that method didn't work.

At the very least the ending is what I'd call 'disposable', the kind of thing you'd accept at the end of a film, but lacking when it comes to a story you've shaped. It's too cinematic when it shouldn't be, and not enough (in my opinion) when it would benefit from it.

As for your question, I felt reluctant to start a new game initially, for a number of reasons.

1) The game, regardless of flaws in the ending moments, is a very emotional experience. As much as I thought I was ready for a space-apocalypse conclusion, ME3 did an amazing job of surprising me. I didn't really feel like jumping back in to it right away because I was still processing it from the first time.

2) For all the characters I created, I realised that I only really had 1 definitive Shepard. She was the first one I made in ME1 back in 2007, when all the choices and consequences were unknowns, and therefore all the more meaningful. I made lots of other characters in 1, while waiting for 2, and in 2, while waiting for 3. Yet when I finished 3, I honestly felt finished. Tom Francis explained it really well:

"Shepard is the best game character I’ve ever played. She’s been an ongoing improv collaboration between me and BioWare to build a hero that works for their plot, but suits my tastes. Since we composed her first inspiring speech to the crew when she took charge of the Normandy, a commanding, brutally effective woman has emerged through 60 hours of tough decisions. She’s killed thousands who got in her way, hung up on the interstellar Council four times, punched the same reporter in three different interviews and shot people mid-sentence. But she has also formed conflicted, quiet, sometimes touching relationships with some of the alien weirdos dragged along on her mission. Relationships that gave her character a gentler side I didn’t expect, but which made sense of the person I had in my head."

With prior games in the series, there was always that element of 'what will happen next?' Now that I've completed the trilogy, I know what leads to what and there is a certain magic, both narratively and technically, that any other playthrough won't have.

3) With the state of the ending in flux as a result of efforts to change it, and the possibility that it might, I'm not particularly invested in playing through again until a definitive state is reached.

4) It's been a long journey, and rather than wrap things up with a bow, a whole new world of 'what ifs, what abouts, and huh?s' have opened up. It's knackering, quite frankly . Those same questions will be there no matter what Shepard I play, so beyond a certain point I feel I'll just be repeating myself.

But does it taint the series for me? Honestly, I would say no, because in my opinion the final choice feels like the first decision in a new series, instead of the last one of the old. Sort of like how Robert E. Howard's Conan series marks the fall of Atlantis as the starting point of a new age, the fall of the relays etc feels like the origins of how a new society is started.

Yes it's basically the same ending (visually) for each outcome, and yes, the war asset mechanic makes little difference aesthetically to things (which I would have liked a lot), but for me, every choice in the series was about how my particular Shepard was able to get to that ending. It was about being strong enough to affect a change of some sort, and that strength manifested through all sorts of choices I'd made. I felt it faithfully reflected that, and the only problem is that there is no immediate Mass Effect 4 to see the long-term consequences of her actions.

Modifié par Tirranek, 19 mars 2012 - 04:30 .

[Qctavian]

@atghunter

Thank you for all of your feedback and insight into everything happening. Personally I have only been reading forums and watching everything fold out since I beat the game within the first few days of release, but after reading everything you have said I felt like I needed to post. I have been a long time fan of BioWare for years now (Jade Empire,kotor, etc) with Mass Effect being by far my favorite series possibly since Star Wars, and you are right (at least in my opinion) that the worst enemy a man can face is a former friend. Spending so many hours of my life to play such an engaging and fun game is like a bonding experience. You grow to know the characters and care about them and the story. It has been painful knowing how ME3 ended with so many plot holes, when it could have ended on such a positive note(not like a happy ending or anything but one that actually makes sense, no space magic) for myself and I am sure many others.

Again, thank you for your continued feedback and insight into all of this. I will make sure to keep my eye out for anything else you have to say.

Hold the line!

Modifié par Qctavian, 19 mars 2012 - 05:54 .

[Razorsteel]

Some one brought up the fact that they didn't like me quoting Sun Tzu. I shall attempt to explain why I did so. Sun Tzu's blueprint on how to run a campaign are tried and true. You would ignore them at your own peril. The sales guy ,PR guys all read this stuff and put these into practice. In business, it's all about profit, not pink ponies and lets be nice to them. You can be respectful, but the PR machine will use Sun Tzu's methods to be triumphant. I probably sound pretty militant( I was a career Soldier for eons). I not saying that we need to break out the grenade launchers. But you need to realize the methodology that is being used against us. Is it pretty, no but these methods are successful.

[dreaming_raithe]

Still loving this thread. I wonder how long Bioware's gonna stay down in the bunker. Can they outlast this?

[tettenjager]

Belgian Fleet holding the line!

[marshkoala]

@Hydralysk

Great response!

@Jamie9 I realize that the comment about witchhunt could've been a joke but thought I would remind posters how easy it is to get on started. Your posts are very thoughtful.

@atghunter
Thanks so much for dropping in and commenting!!!!

[Tony Redgrave]

I just wanted to add my support for this.

An excellent thread.

I will hold the line for however long it takes. Until our beloved trilogy gets the conclusion it truly deserves!

[Theb82]

hmm they just locked the facebook conspiracy post

[The Almighty Ali]

Walked by a table durring lunch at work where some co-workers from the sales and administration department were talking about the ending of Mass Effect 3 and how they didn't like it, when I walked past it again I stopped and put a note down with a link to the Facebook and Twitter page along with our motto.

Got mail from them before I left work, just six little words.
"We will hold the line aswell."

So..What'd I miss here?