9972 réponses à ce sujet

[komoshi]

Carnage752 wrote...

komoshi wrote...

In a way, I believe BioWare is in an amazing position right now. But only if they don't drop the (2nd) ball.

If you think about it, they can use the Indoctrination Theory (Which many agree that it's a very clever way to 'tell' a story to the gamer, like meta-clever) and give the fans a sigh of relief.

They can claim that it was their intention all along. (And all the misdirection and silence was to emphasize the point - Which honestly, I don't really know if it was REALLY intended by a 'play by the books' EA, but many seem to think that it's possible with BioWare. So, they can still kind of get away with it.)

Even if they don't use the Indoctrination Theory, they can still release something that is of quality closure (and hopefully free to show good measure) to please their hardcore fans and show them (and the press) that they are a company that really care about their relationship with their audience.

Either way they can really win this.

And I'm sure EA/BioWare is aware, and they may think they still hold most of their cards.
But what I do think is that they're underestimating how volatile the situation is actually at hand.

If they choose to delay too long, I think all of that 'upper hand' I just wrote about will not matter since they would be missing a crucial timing.

I personally think, had they have at least threw us a bone about the matter (vs. just silence), and actually made at least some statement at the not-so-kind responses from the major article websites, it wouldn't have been THIS negative... But I suppose the damage is done.

Kind of also makes me wonder if EA/BioWare got a tad impatient with this game, with the DLC, and (in my opinion) their poor handling with the majority's response with the ending.

Since it launched at early March. With the fiscal year ending at the end of the month… It must’ve been very tempting to rack up just a few more dollars in the reports. (And omit the negativity about the ending, at least until the end of March)

It’s just me speculating, but based on some of the other people’s post about how the fiscal year works… I also think being surprisingly silent about the whole matter (in the expense of more frustrated fans) is also part of it.

Bad official press must look unappealing to investors, but I don't know if they are looking at the long term matter of bad impression from their most loyal fans.

Even if they run with the indoctrination theory, the fact Shepard still runs with the Starchild's plan AFTER breaking indoctrination will be a massive plothole.

I agree. However, it be something to base off from that could potentially turn this event into their 'win'.

Having said, had it 'my' way.. I wish they went with this guy's idea: 

Thanks for reading my post!

[ahandsomeshark]

Carnage752 wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

Zero.Gee wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

It's quite easy for people to associate anyone who doesn't like the ending with the cause.

Example: The idiotic FTC guy.

The fan who filed a complaint with the FTC had every right to do so. Its rude to say that the guy is idiotic because he felt the best way for his voice to be heard was to file an online complaint with the FTC. While we may not all agree with how someone else chooses to voice his or her opinions of the ending, its never good to ridicule them on how they choose to take a stand. Some of the press has even gone as far as to berate that fan for his actions; which doesn't paint them in a good light either.

Please remember people, be civil be polite and hold the line. We wont get very far otherwise.

He brought a great deal of negative PR on us. He might have had good intentions, but the fact he did this action while identifying with us selfish. This movement has been to try and get Bioware to cooperate, not force them into this ending.

Go to the Retake Facebook page and read his message. He makes it clear he did this for us. He shouldn't have.

Yeah but an FTC complaint wouldn't force them to redo the endings. More likely it would look into whether EA/EA employees were using information that was false in order to promotions. Which, as multiple posters and a video has pointed out, seems like something that at least warrants investigation, and at worse they'll get a small fine/slap on the risk. Complaining to the FTC about questionable advertising tactics is absolutely the right and reasonable thing to do.

You are ignoring all the consequences because of his action. We are right back to "whiny fanboys" to many people. We can't have people's anger hurting what we have accomplished this early.

But you're assuming that the media wouldn't have just found some other reason to call us whiny fanboys. The fact they're blowing a fairly reasonable action out of proporiton just shows that they would take anything, and spin it into proof of us being whiny fanboys to support their arguments. 

Edit: case in point being the stories that are claiming the money raised for child's play is going towards a new ending and not for an actual cause. They're clearly not interested in the truth, because a simple google search would have cleared that idea up for them, they're interested in perpetuating a sterotype to others, and they would have found a way to do it one way or another.

Modifié par ahandsomeshark, 19 mars 2012 - 09:27 .

[Carnage752]

Mister Mida wrote...

Is that Child's Play thing still going on btw?

Site is down for maitnence, but otherwise yes.

[Dranume]

Wow that was alot of insight to take in and digest. My brain is still wrapping around to alot of what the OP had posted and updated with.

The one key message I took away from this is "Stay Strong, Stay Civil, and Stay Passionate" Its true that over time the voice can die down.. and I agree that breaks need to be taken. I just got back from taking a few days to Watch "How I met your mother" freaken hilarious btw. Now I am back and catching up on the news.

As for the MP weekend, I myself did not participate in it for two reasons. I did not think that the reward was good enough and two I wanted to hold true to my support for the movement.

[Fallenfromthesky]

Kinoru wrote...

Not to derail the thread or anything, anyone else here wondering why main stream television new shows hasn't caught up in this issue. I'm pretty sure there should be at least some mention outside from internet reviews/uproar.

Edit. Oops forgot to post that I'm still Holding the Line.

because at this time the movement is still slightly to unreletable to the general population. However the more we can support this campaign the more likely the mainstream media is to report it but im sure that somewhere on this thread someone said that Fox and CBC ect MAY be covering this issue.
 
Stand Strong and Hold the Line

[Sinnick03]

Marcin R wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

Sinnick03 wrote...





Still, a great deal of plotholes, lack of choice, and no clear statement from Bioware this is true. If they run with it I will continue on with this. They need to either refine or expand on these endings, probably both.

What plot holes do you mean exactly?  The way I'm reading the theory would mean that every event after Harbinger hit you with that beam would take play entirely inside Shepards mind.  Thus whatever is the actual ending would be taking place directly after that. 

I agree that it is time for Bioware to make a clear statement on what the ending is and was meant to be.  Chances are that what we got was all that meant it to be.  I just hope the Indoctrination theory is what they go for.

what plotholes? in large scope everything that VI child aka WHAT-THE-HELL CHILD/GODCHILD says contradicts with previous things known as true in ME series: example: Reaper[sovergin] :[...]We have no beginning and no end" [there was something about being eternal too. godchild"i've created the reapers" -something without begining cnnot be created every reaper states it is self aware and different godchild "i control ALL reapers" arrival DLC from ME2: Mass Relay explosion basically kills the system it is in-hence the mass batarian slaughter conduict scene: happy blowing in one of RGB colors thus basically KILLING EVERYTHING one part of cutscene stands against YEARS of plot in Mass Effect series -if that doesn't convince you about plotholes i dunno what will as for indoctrination-if EVERYTHING [including Normandy esscape] is halucination OK-so why BW denies vaguely everything than admit in the open THERE WILL BE MORE ON THE ENDING

I'm not arguing that the citadel scene was not moronic drivel that was completey destructive to the Cannon and to small but improtant parts of our brains.  What I am saying is that, acording to my take on the indoctrination theory, that entire sequence never happened.  From the time that Shepard is hit with the beam, to the time he/she 'wakes up'  was all a hallucination crafted as a means of indoctrinating Shepard.

[The Almighty Ali]

Mister Mida wrote...

Is that Child's Play thing still going on btw?

Yes, but the site is down for maintenance.
It'll keep going until we either get the ending DLC  or confirmed by Bioware that we get nothing.

As far as I'm concerned, even if we loose then we'll have done something good and if we get a Ending DLC I'mm donate 200 bucks as celebration.

[coolbeans]

SSV London checking in before standing down

Hold the line chaps

[shephard987]

Mister Mida wrote...

Is that Child's Play thing still going on btw?

Yeah, it's not clear of what the issue is with the donation site.
I hope they fix it soon. Time is money. Money would be going to the children. 

Hold the Line

[Dranume]

oh.. this thread should be sticked imo... has some really great insight.

[LdyBelial]

Su13perfitz wrote...

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

People have actually started protesting our protest? Why? What have we done to them?

I think some of the upset-ness comes from them thinking that if we succeed then suddenly video games aren't art. That's a pretty silly argument in and of itself because if they are art, they're corporate art. Unless it's released for free in which case the players would be incredibly silly for protesting something in it.

However, with ME3 specifically there were things we were promised that we didn't get as well as blatant marketing lies. But unlike the guy who made the FTC complaint, we want to work with BioWare to fix these things and give ME3, and the Shepard trilogy, the kind of ending it deserves!

Video games are not just "art" they are also sport. In sport you compete against something. The computer if not another player in this context.  Moreover they use the same concepts as sport which is repeating actions give a reward of some sort(you get the ball, points on the board, crowd cheers and/or boos etc...). The only video games that come close to true art are visual novels and it is even up for debate if those are video games. Remember sports that are not engaging and if the art takes away from the sport and pulls me out of an experience you have to question the "art".

We ARE NOT SETTING A PRECEDENCE here.  Fallout 3 ended tragically which was totally against the creation of the original games’ purposes.  Three months later Bethesda did right by the fan-base and released downloaded content to change the ending.

Video games as art – a movie can be called art right?  No one ever told me that I could have direct influence on the direction of a movie therefore I don’t expect one.  I can also walk out of a movie I don’t like losing very little in comparison to a video game.  A painting is art – I can view that painting in detail before I sink my money into it.  Music can be art – I can listen to the music before I purchase it.  

Video games can be art – but their first and foremost responsibility is to provide INTERACTIVE Entertainment – and if that entertainment isn’t satisfactory for the consumer they can choose to not buy anything ever again from that game company.

Is that really what BioWare wants?

I think not.  

Hold the Line -- spread the word, keep it civil.

[shephard987]

The Almighty Ali wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Is that Child's Play thing still going on btw?

Yes, but the site is down for maintenance.
It'll keep going until we either get the ending DLC  or confirmed by Bioware that we get nothing.

As far as I'm concerned, even if we loose then we'll have done something good and if we get a Ending DLC I'mm donate 200 bucks as celebration.

Hear hear.
I second that. 

Hold the Line

[supermaan]

Su13perfitz wrote...

Video games are not just "art" they are also sport. In sport you compete against something. The computer if not another player in this context.  Moreover they use the same concepts as sport which is repeating actions give a reward of some sort(you get the ball, points on the board, crowd cheers and/or boos etc...). The only video games that come close to true art are visual novels and it is even up for debate if those are video games. Remember sports that are not engaging and if the art takes away from the sport and pulls me out of an experience you have to question the "art".

Video games are an item that we purchase, a product. As a consumer buying a product I have the right to receive what I pay for based on how it's represented by the manufacturer (advertisement, etc.) and being free of manufacturing defects. As far as video games being art...you could say that housing contracters are artists as well, in that they also create (an interpretation of their vision). They "advertise" that house and make claims as to everything it comes with and can do. If that house fails to meet any of those claims through misrepresentation or manufacturing defects, you have the right to challenge it...but nobody will tell you that you're incorrectly acting entitled because this house is art. Point is, anything that could be considered art or artistic expression becomes a product once it is sold, and as a product is subject to customer approval.

Modifié par supermaan, 19 mars 2012 - 09:33 .

[Mayple]

Femlob wrote...

I was looking for that topic with the list of pre-release promises by BioWare, but I can't find it anywhere - so I'll just leave this here:

Counting the assets from the "From Ashes" DLC and the two assets that were cut from the game, the maximum Total Military Readiness you can achieve with Singleplayer alone is 7,824 - which translates to an Effective Military Readiness of 3,912. Anyone who says different is either cheating or increased their Readiness through Facebook, the iOS apps or Multiplayer.

The "best" ending (taken with bags of salt by all involved) requires an Effective Military Readiness of 4,000.

What this implies I'll gladly leave to you.

Does that include stuff you get when you start a new game (like fish and model ships etc)? I think that bioware was trying to say that you can get the best ending with single player only, IF you decide to play through a second time (which may be the reason the guides say there is a special NG+ ending).

Correct me if I'm wrong on being able to get more assets on the second playthrough.

[mxfox408]

Everything that was stated by the OP in this thread is being confirmed by all the moderators responses. The ending sucked, o think its safe to say majority amount of players can agree, even professionals from places like escapistmagazine.com can agree. But to have people from IGN and other opinionated biased people to say we don't have the right to demand something done when we feel cheated, they pretty much should back off because pissing off lots of people who are already pist off just adds gas and wood to the fire. Casey is not giving answers besides contradicting his own statements by the ending alone. So people have the right to do what they want, protest, organize, boycott, and sell thier games. Bioware needs to not just listen but do something or they will damage themselves in the long run. Something square-enix is doing and I'm sure bioware doesn't want to end up in that boat because I use to love square, and to me they are a sinking ship. Bioware better do something or they will fall from grace.

[Carnage752]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

Zero.Gee wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

It's quite easy for people to associate anyone who doesn't like the ending with the cause.

Example: The idiotic FTC guy.

The fan who filed a complaint with the FTC had every right to do so. Its rude to say that the guy is idiotic because he felt the best way for his voice to be heard was to file an online complaint with the FTC. While we may not all agree with how someone else chooses to voice his or her opinions of the ending, its never good to ridicule them on how they choose to take a stand. Some of the press has even gone as far as to berate that fan for his actions; which doesn't paint them in a good light either.

Please remember people, be civil be polite and hold the line. We wont get very far otherwise.

He brought a great deal of negative PR on us. He might have had good intentions, but the fact he did this action while identifying with us selfish. This movement has been to try and get Bioware to cooperate, not force them into this ending.

Go to the Retake Facebook page and read his message. He makes it clear he did this for us. He shouldn't have.

Yeah but an FTC complaint wouldn't force them to redo the endings. More likely it would look into whether EA/EA employees were using information that was false in order to promotions. Which, as multiple posters and a video has pointed out, seems like something that at least warrants investigation, and at worse they'll get a small fine/slap on the risk. Complaining to the FTC about questionable advertising tactics is absolutely the right and reasonable thing to do.

You are ignoring all the consequences because of his action. We are right back to "whiny fanboys" to many people. We can't have people's anger hurting what we have accomplished this early.

But you're assuming that the media wouldn't have just found some other reason to call us whiny fanboys. The fact they're blowing a fairly reasonable action out of proporiton just shows that they would take anything, and spin it into proof of us being whiny fanboys to support their arguments. 

Your right. They still might have. But that doesn't mean we can all throw caution to the wind because , oh well, someone else will probably screw us up anyways.

Analogy: 3 guys are carrying a heavy load. One guy thinks the others are about to drop it, so he lets go anyways, bringing the whole load down on the other's feet.

We have to all be careful to always set a good PR for the movement if we want to succeed.

[Kinoru]

rvayda141 wrote...

Snip (my part of the conversation)

We were mentioned on CNN (not negatively I might add), the link is buried in this thread somewhere. I also heard we were mentioned on Fox, but I don't know the details on that one.

Yeah I remember the Mass Effect mentionon CNN however that was part of their computer game review segment. I would think that the fact that a large chunk of people are asking for a change should be newsworthy. I dont mean the whole timeslot should be used for it just wished there was more attention brought to it. The more attention we have the better chances we will have in having others understand our point of view.

Holding the Line.

[Sharkey1337]

Just read the latest update from atghunter, man I love this guy's input! Keep holding the line people, and thanks for all the insight!

[Mister Mida]

Just checking since I was planning on donating the money I saved on the CE by pre-ordering at the right time.

[mythlover20]

It's been hard enough getting my other gaming friends to understand this cause, and filing a complaint with the FTC is going to make it bloody impossible to be viewed as "whiny butthurt ****es" and all the other crud I have to deal with from them.

Trying to get people to understand that no, this is not just about the game, but about the notion that we are not going to let large companies sadle us with inferior products while they've been promising all along a superior one. The "art" debate doesn't come in to it in that matter, (though as an artist myself, like a large number of us on here are, if you really want to get into the art debate they had better be prepared for a bitter defeat). This is really all about consumer fraud. It's very difficult to get people to understand that.

[Scoob]

-Something went wrong, ignore please -

Modifié par Scoob, 19 mars 2012 - 09:33 .

[Marcin K]

mxfox408 wrote...

Everything that was stated by the OP in this thread is being confirmed by all the moderators responses. The ending sucked, o think its safe to say majority amount of players can agree, even professionals from places like escapistmagazine.com can agree. But to have people from IGN and other opinionated biased people to say we don't have the right to demand something done when we feel cheated, they pretty much should back off because pissing off lots of people who are already pist off just adds gas and wood to the fire. Casey is not giving answers besides contradicting his own statements by the ending alone. So people have the right to do what they want, protest, organize, boycott, and sell thier games. Bioware needs to not just listen but do something or they will damage themselves in the long run. Something square-enix is doing and I'm sure bioware doesn't want to end up in that boat because I use to love square, and to me they are a sinking ship. Bioware better do something or they will fall from grace.

not critisising anyone but for me some of the reviews [let me underline the word SOME] look like they are were paid $ for presenting a PR image instead of review -but again not all

[Scoob]

Scoob wrote...

pavi132 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...


"End of line" predates "hold the line"  by approximately 25 years. I have been using it for at least 9 years, since before Mass Effect 1. It is an homage to the Mster Control Program in the 1982 Disny movie "Tron," not a dig at anyone's cause or protest movement. If you believe it is inflammatory, then I would suggest that you're overthinking things and should perhaps learn a little more about me and the movie I am referencing.

Threads are locked if they are not story and campaign related. Since we already have a couple of threads discussing the protest movement, new threads discussing only the protest movement or addressing the protest movement will likelt be locked. This is not decret information, and I would have gladly told you all of this had you but asked in a private message. Jumping to conclusions and crafting conspiracy theories based on half-considered circumstantial evidence does none of us--least of all your "cause"--any good.

thank you.

And thank you for the condescension about this "cause" as you say! It's much appreciated!

Well to defend mister Woo here, "cause" is a word that is usually used in more severe cases, such as a "cause" to fight cancer or aids or whatever, this is more a protest, to me at least. So you know, i can at least understand why some might not like the word, not that it bothers me personally.

Hold the line!

[Carnage752]

mythlover20 wrote...

It's been hard enough getting my other gaming friends to understand this cause, and filing a complaint with the FTC is going to make it bloody impossible to be viewed as "whiny butthurt ****es" and all the other crud I have to deal with from them.

Trying to get people to understand that no, this is not just about the game, but about the notion that we are not going to let large companies sadle us with inferior products while they've been promising all along a superior one. The "art" debate doesn't come in to it in that matter, (though as an artist myself, like a large number of us on here are, if you really want to get into the art debate they had better be prepared for a bitter defeat). This is really all about consumer fraud. It's very difficult to get people to understand that.

I agree. The FTC complaint might be legal, but it's not smart nor practical.