9972 réponses à ce sujet

[Carnage752]

wheelierdan wrote...

the reality is from my point of view, they issued statements they knew to be false about their product, in order to entice consumers to purchase their product. seems pretty clear to me.

This isn't about that. It's about our image. We are now once again seen as whiny fanboys. He did not think this through when he linked his move to us.

[Marcin K]

wheelierdan wrote...

the reality is from my point of view, they issued statements they knew to be false about their product, in order to entice consumers to purchase their product. seems pretty clear to me.

still the choice is between what is done already but you CAN do now

[wheelierdan]

i agree with what you are saying and i don't personally think it was that helpful to go that route, but do you really think there's any scenario where we wouldn't be portrayed as whiny fans?

[ahandsomeshark]

Carnage752 wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

Zero.Gee wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

It's quite easy for people to associate anyone who doesn't like the ending with the cause.

Example: The idiotic FTC guy.

The fan who filed a complaint with the FTC had every right to do so. Its rude to say that the guy is idiotic because he felt the best way for his voice to be heard was to file an online complaint with the FTC. While we may not all agree with how someone else chooses to voice his or her opinions of the ending, its never good to ridicule them on how they choose to take a stand. Some of the press has even gone as far as to berate that fan for his actions; which doesn't paint them in a good light either.

Please remember people, be civil be polite and hold the line. We wont get very far otherwise.

He brought a great deal of negative PR on us. He might have had good intentions, but the fact he did this action while identifying with us selfish. This movement has been to try and get Bioware to cooperate, not force them into this ending.

Go to the Retake Facebook page and read his message. He makes it clear he did this for us. He shouldn't have.

Yeah but an FTC complaint wouldn't force them to redo the endings. More likely it would look into whether EA/EA employees were using information that was false in order to promotions. Which, as multiple posters and a video has pointed out, seems like something that at least warrants investigation, and at worse they'll get a small fine/slap on the risk. Complaining to the FTC about questionable advertising tactics is absolutely the right and reasonable thing to do.

You are ignoring all the consequences because of his action. We are right back to "whiny fanboys" to many people. We can't have people's anger hurting what we have accomplished this early.

But you're assuming that the media wouldn't have just found some other reason to call us whiny fanboys. The fact they're blowing a fairly reasonable action out of proporiton just shows that they would take anything, and spin it into proof of us being whiny fanboys to support their arguments. 

Your right. They still might have. But that doesn't mean we can all throw caution to the wind because , oh well, someone else will probably screw us up anyways.

Analogy: 3 guys are carrying a heavy load. One guy thinks the others are about to drop it, so he lets go anyways, bringing the whole load down on the other's feet.

We have to all be careful to always set a good PR for the movement if we want to succeed.

Oh I completely agree on that point. I'm not saying people should start making death to bioware youtube videos. Just that we also shouldn't allow them to box us in to a point that even perfectly reasonable reactions become villified. 

If it can cause damage, than ya, I classify it as not reasonable. His move was little gain and a lot of loss.

It's not really true it's of little gain. The FTC actually has the power to fine companies, something we as consumers don't have. And companies are a lot more likely to change behavior if there is a high enough risk of a hurt to profits/money. Now in the current state of the internet consumers have a lot more power to organize mass boycots and what not that can affect sales giving more power than we had before but at this point, FTC investigations are more proven in amended behavior. To me the FTC complaint is less about the Mass Effect ending and more about the fact that a lot of games have come out over the last few years lacking features that were specifically mentioned in interviews and promotions, and regulation from an FTC type organization is the only thing that's really going to result in a mass change in that.

[c3pu2]

remember those great heros of past battles
marauder shields who died trying to save us
shepard who suffered the most in this story
did they break the line no
now is our time
we raised money for a charity but before that we held the line
we crossed the 40k like on facebook but before that we held the line
we became legion to fight for our conviction but before that we held the line
we fought amoughst ourselves to come out stronger but before that we held the line
we were fed false information but did not take the bait but before that we held the line
we were offered a mp event to distract us and it did not work but before that we held the line
so until we get what we want
WE WILL HOLD THE LINE

[Carnage752]

Fallenfromthesky wrote...

Scoob wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

mythlover20 wrote...

It's been hard enough getting my other gaming friends to understand this cause, and filing a complaint with the FTC is going to make it bloody impossible to be viewed as "whiny butthurt ****es" and all the other crud I have to deal with from them.

Trying to get people to understand that no, this is not just about the game, but about the notion that we are not going to let large companies sadle us with inferior products while they've been promising all along a superior one. The "art" debate doesn't come in to it in that matter, (though as an artist myself, like a large number of us on here are, if you really want to get into the art debate they had better be prepared for a bitter defeat). This is really all about consumer fraud. It's very difficult to get people to understand that.

I agree. The FTC complaint might be legal, but it's not smart nor practical.

The FTC complaint was legal and valid. Bioware/EA falsy advertised their game and lied about what content was on the disc. Stop complaining about someone using their perfectly legal rights to file a complaint to an agency that was MADE for these type of situations, you know, consumer fraud....

Besides, sitting on a forum to complain can also be seen as not very smart nor practical, so respect how others deal with it. The only reason people are using this FTC complaint against the protest is because

A. They were paid #IGNorant
B. They are BioBots
C. They do not understand what the FTC does

I agree that the FTC complain may not have been in the movements best interest but what done is done if we can show that we are big enough to accept that and move on then we send the message that we are not just whiny, entitled fanboys and girls

You might be right. But I'm speaking out against others who might want to do the same thing, THEN link it to us.

[ahandsomeshark]

Carnage752 wrote...

wheelierdan wrote...

the reality is from my point of view, they issued statements they knew to be false about their product, in order to entice consumers to purchase their product. seems pretty clear to me.

This isn't about that. It's about our image. We are now once again seen as whiny fanboys. He did not think this through when he linked his move to us.

But people were saying we were whiny fanboys before the news about his ftc complaint even broke. 

[Kinoru]

LdyBelial wrote...

Snips* (Dont Like Qoute Pyramids)

We ARE NOT SETTING A PRECEDENCE here.  Fallout 3 ended tragically which was totally against the creation of the original games’ purposes.  Three months later Bethesda did right by the fan-base and released downloaded content to change the ending.

Video games as art – a movie can be called art right?  No one ever told me that I could have direct influence on the direction of a movie therefore I don’t expect one.  I can also walk out of a movie I don’t like losing very little in comparison to a video game.  A painting is art – I can view that painting in detail before I sink my money into it.  Music can be art – I can listen to the music before I purchase it.  

Video games can be art – but their first and foremost responsibility is to provide INTERACTIVE Entertainment – and if that entertainment isn’t satisfactory for the consumer they can choose to not buy anything ever again from that game company.

Is that really what BioWare wants?

I think not.  

Hold the Line -- spread the word, keep it civil.

If I can remember correctly the reason Bethesda had to fix Fallout 3 was because if you finished the orignal part of the game you could not finish any other quests that you had prior to going to the story's conclusion. Basically the fix was to allow you a more sandbox type adventure after the game ends. 

Currently with the way ME3 ends its the same way, and Bioware stated before that their DLC were focused on stuff that will occur prior to the Battle of Earth. (I dont really mind that portion, and I am ambivalent to the sandbox portion that might come afterward if they do copy what Bethesda did.) We as the fans do kinda like a lot of stuff to happen, but that is because our expectations for this wonderful series was dashed by the last 5-10 minutes of the game. The arbitrary loss of choice and the lack of real closure are a few of the reasons why I personally want the ending to be changed. In Fallout 3 I didnt really feel that way, maybe I am just more invested in this series compared to it, but that's the real driving force for all of the people out there, they care about the franchise and that's why we should keep voicing our opinion and hold the line.

Edit: Was trying to see if I fixed my quote pyramid issue... Still Holding the Line.

Modifié par Kinoru, 19 mars 2012 - 09:50 .

[Carnage752]

wheelierdan wrote...

i agree with what you are saying and i don't personally think it was that helpful to go that route, but do you really think there's any scenario where we wouldn't be portrayed as whiny fans?

They have to work for it if they want to call us whiny. I don't want them handed all they need to disregard us on a silver platter.

[SkaldFish]

mythlover20 wrote...

It's been hard enough getting my other gaming friends to understand this cause, and filing a complaint with the FTC is going to make it bloody impossible to be viewed as "whiny butthurt ****es" and all the other crud I have to deal with from them.

Trying to get people to understand that no, this is not just about the game, but about the notion that we are not going to let large companies sadle us with inferior products while they've been promising all along a superior one. The "art" debate doesn't come in to it in that matter, (though as an artist myself, like a large number of us on here are, if you really want to get into the art debate they had better be prepared for a bitter defeat). This is really all about consumer fraud. It's very difficult to get people to understand that.

Actually, I don't think we even have to deflect the "art" debate. Creative works must adhere to standards of quality just like any other type of product. If a creative product that is driven by storytelling has incoherent narrative content, that's not "creative license," it's a defect. If it had been flagged by BioWare QA prior to release, it would be an item in their defect tracking system just like any other bug. (Why such things apparently weren't flagged is a valid question, but beside the point here.)

Modifié par SkaldFish, 19 mars 2012 - 09:48 .

[Carnage752]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

wheelierdan wrote...

the reality is from my point of view, they issued statements they knew to be false about their product, in order to entice consumers to purchase their product. seems pretty clear to me.

This isn't about that. It's about our image. We are now once again seen as whiny fanboys. He did not think this through when he linked his move to us.

But people were saying we were whiny fanboys before the news about his ftc complaint even broke. 

And they were turning around. Now we are right back where we started.

[Soban]

Just popping in quickly, I'm one of them that is not talking much. However, I just want to restate that I feel dissatisfied with the endings. I'm watching to see how things develop. I will hold the line.

[ahandsomeshark]

wheelierdan wrote...

i agree with what you are saying and i don't personally think it was that helpful to go that route, but do you really think there's any scenario where we wouldn't be portrayed as whiny fans?

this I don't think there's any real reason to think the FTC complaint=> us being called whiny fans. They were going to call us whiny fans regardless.

[ahandsomeshark]

Carnage752 wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

wheelierdan wrote...

the reality is from my point of view, they issued statements they knew to be false about their product, in order to entice consumers to purchase their product. seems pretty clear to me.

This isn't about that. It's about our image. We are now once again seen as whiny fanboys. He did not think this through when he linked his move to us.

But people were saying we were whiny fanboys before the news about his ftc complaint even broke. 

And they were turning around. Now we are right back where we started.

Who was turning around? I haven't seen one site that was neutral turn to the entitled fanboy argument post ftc complaint and most of the sites who are using those arguments where doing the same thing before.

[punkenjunki3]

Carnage752 wrote...

*snip*

That's the point Scoob. Yes, it is legal and valid. But you are looking at the face value of what he did.

People will use this as a ammunition against us. It might have gained him short term gain. But in the long term? People will classify us as Whiny Fanboys. You are right. They don't understand. And we HAVE to take that into account.

I'm more pissed that he wanted to link what he did to us. It may be legal and valid. But it was short-sighted.

Very true, the biggest enemy with this is (for want of a better word) the ignorance of Joe Public on the subject. TO us we know why very intimatley the cause for the complaint. The rest of the world wont, especially when it comes to gaming which is still a very young media.

They wont see it as a ligitimate complaint just a pointless case that shouldnt allow to be raised, and it will cast us in very unflattering light. 

[Carnage752]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

Zero.Gee wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

It's quite easy for people to associate anyone who doesn't like the ending with the cause.

Example: The idiotic FTC guy.

The fan who filed a complaint with the FTC had every right to do so. Its rude to say that the guy is idiotic because he felt the best way for his voice to be heard was to file an online complaint with the FTC. While we may not all agree with how someone else chooses to voice his or her opinions of the ending, its never good to ridicule them on how they choose to take a stand. Some of the press has even gone as far as to berate that fan for his actions; which doesn't paint them in a good light either.

Please remember people, be civil be polite and hold the line. We wont get very far otherwise.

He brought a great deal of negative PR on us. He might have had good intentions, but the fact he did this action while identifying with us selfish. This movement has been to try and get Bioware to cooperate, not force them into this ending.

Go to the Retake Facebook page and read his message. He makes it clear he did this for us. He shouldn't have.

Yeah but an FTC complaint wouldn't force them to redo the endings. More likely it would look into whether EA/EA employees were using information that was false in order to promotions. Which, as multiple posters and a video has pointed out, seems like something that at least warrants investigation, and at worse they'll get a small fine/slap on the risk. Complaining to the FTC about questionable advertising tactics is absolutely the right and reasonable thing to do.

You are ignoring all the consequences because of his action. We are right back to "whiny fanboys" to many people. We can't have people's anger hurting what we have accomplished this early.

But you're assuming that the media wouldn't have just found some other reason to call us whiny fanboys. The fact they're blowing a fairly reasonable action out of proporiton just shows that they would take anything, and spin it into proof of us being whiny fanboys to support their arguments. 

Your right. They still might have. But that doesn't mean we can all throw caution to the wind because , oh well, someone else will probably screw us up anyways.

Analogy: 3 guys are carrying a heavy load. One guy thinks the others are about to drop it, so he lets go anyways, bringing the whole load down on the other's feet.

We have to all be careful to always set a good PR for the movement if we want to succeed.

Oh I completely agree on that point. I'm not saying people should start making death to bioware youtube videos. Just that we also shouldn't allow them to box us in to a point that even perfectly reasonable reactions become villified. 

If it can cause damage, than ya, I classify it as not reasonable. His move was little gain and a lot of loss.

It's not really true it's of little gain. The FTC actually has the power to fine companies, something we as consumers don't have. And companies are a lot more likely to change behavior if there is a high enough risk of a hurt to profits/money. Now in the current state of the internet consumers have a lot more power to organize mass boycots and what not that can affect sales giving more power than we had before but at this point, FTC investigations are more proven in amended behavior. To me the FTC complaint is less about the Mass Effect ending and more about the fact that a lot of games have come out over the last few years lacking features that were specifically mentioned in interviews and promotions, and regulation from an FTC type organization is the only thing that's really going to result in a mass change in that.

We need to focus on one thing at a time. First, we get our endings. We can worry about that later. Bioware is too strong to try and divide and conquer.

[sabasebatyne]

Carnage752 wrote...

Fallenfromthesky wrote...

Scoob wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

mythlover20 wrote...

It's been hard enough getting my other gaming friends to understand this cause, and filing a complaint with the FTC is going to make it bloody impossible to be viewed as "whiny butthurt ****es" and all the other crud I have to deal with from them.

Trying to get people to understand that no, this is not just about the game, but about the notion that we are not going to let large companies sadle us with inferior products while they've been promising all along a superior one. The "art" debate doesn't come in to it in that matter, (though as an artist myself, like a large number of us on here are, if you really want to get into the art debate they had better be prepared for a bitter defeat). This is really all about consumer fraud. It's very difficult to get people to understand that.

I agree. The FTC complaint might be legal, but it's not smart nor practical.

The FTC complaint was legal and valid. Bioware/EA falsy advertised their game and lied about what content was on the disc. Stop complaining about someone using their perfectly legal rights to file a complaint to an agency that was MADE for these type of situations, you know, consumer fraud....

Besides, sitting on a forum to complain can also be seen as not very smart nor practical, so respect how others deal with it. The only reason people are using this FTC complaint against the protest is because

A. They were paid #IGNorant
B. They are BioBots
C. They do not understand what the FTC does

I agree that the FTC complain may not have been in the movements best interest but what done is done if we can show that we are big enough to accept that and move on then we send the message that we are not just whiny, entitled fanboys and girls

You might be right. But I'm speaking out against others who might want to do the same thing, THEN link it to us.

I kinda have to agree, here. For now, it seems wise to distance the fan response here from other movements for legal action, etc. Regardless of whether such measures are warranted or ultimately effective, I think the majority of our actions should remain focused on civil discussion and social media awareness.

[kegNeggs]

Still loving this thread even more with every update.
there's not much I can do to support but I do hope there will be a good outcome to all this

hold that line

[Carnage752]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Carnage752 wrote...

wheelierdan wrote...

the reality is from my point of view, they issued statements they knew to be false about their product, in order to entice consumers to purchase their product. seems pretty clear to me.

This isn't about that. It's about our image. We are now once again seen as whiny fanboys. He did not think this through when he linked his move to us.

But people were saying we were whiny fanboys before the news about his ftc complaint even broke. 

And they were turning around. Now we are right back where we started.

Who was turning around? I haven't seen one site that was neutral turn to the entitled fanboy argument post ftc complaint and most of the sites who are using those arguments where doing the same thing before.

The fact the media was reporting on us more than whiny fanboys should have been a clue.

[Salyut]

Carnage752 wrote...

That's the point Scoob. Yes, it is legal and valid. But you are looking at the face value of what he did.

People will use this as a ammunition against us. It might have gained him short term gain. But in the long term? People will classify us as Whiny Fanboys. You are right. They don't understand. And we HAVE to take that into account.

I'm more pissed that he wanted to link what he did to us. It may be legal and valid. But it was short-sighted.

Both sides have a valid point. He had every right to file a complaint, but it was ill-advised from a PR point of view.

However, I think we should stop discussing this matter. What's done is done and we can't change that know. I think it's better if we stand united and pretty much ignore it when someone else says they filed a complaint too. Let's make it clear that it's their right to do so, but our movement as a whole will not endorse it.

Modifié par Salyut, 19 mars 2012 - 09:51 .

[Carnage752]

[quote]Salyut wrote...

[quote]Carnage752 wrote...

[/quote]
That's the point Scoob. Yes, it is legal and valid. But you are looking at the face value of what he did.

People will use this as a ammunition against us. It might have gained him short term gain. But in the long term? People will classify us as Whiny Fanboys. You are right. They don't understand. And we HAVE to take that into account.

I'm more pissed that he wanted to link what he did to us. It may be legal and valid. But it was short-sighted.

[/quote]

Both sides have a valid point. He had every right to file a complaint, but it was ill-advised from a PR point of view.

However, I think we should stop discussing this matter. What's done is done and we can't change that know. I think it's better if we stand united and pretty much ignore it when someone else says they filed a complaint too. Let's make it clear that it's their right to do so, but our movement as a whole will not endorse it.
[/quote]
Salyut, I'm trying to stop this from happening again. We can't take another hit like this.

[sabasebatyne]

[quote]Salyut wrote...

[quote]Carnage752 wrote...

[/quote]
That's the point Scoob. Yes, it is legal and valid. But you are looking at the face value of what he did.

People will use this as a ammunition against us. It might have gained him short term gain. But in the long term? People will classify us as Whiny Fanboys. You are right. They don't understand. And we HAVE to take that into account.

I'm more pissed that he wanted to link what he did to us. It may be legal and valid. But it was short-sighted.

[/quote]

Both sides have a valid point. He had every right to file a complaint, but it was ill-advised from a PR point of view.

However, I think we should stop discussing this matter. What's done is done and we can't change that know. I think it's better if we stand united and pretty much ignore it when someone else says they filed a complaint too. Let's make it clear that it's their right to do so, but our movement as a whole will not endorse it.
[/quote]


Precisely.

[Kinoru]

Carnage752 wrote...
(Snips Qoute Pyramid)

We need to focus on one thing at a time. First, we get our endings. We can worry about that later. Bioware is too strong to try and divide and conquer.

Let's try to use less of these (Qoute Pyramids) it kinda gets distracting no offense.

Hold the Line.

Modifié par Kinoru, 19 mars 2012 - 09:53 .

[c3pu2]

remember those great heros of past battles
marauder shields who died trying to save us
shepard who went against all ods after being told so many times it was useless
did they break the line no
now is our time
we raised money for a charity but before that we held the line
we crossed the 40k like on facebook but before that we held the line
we became legion to fight for our conviction but before that we held the line
we fought amoughst ourselves to come out stronger but before that we held the line
we were fed false information but did not take the bait but before that we held the line
we were offered a mp event to distract us and it did not work but before that we held the line
so until we get what we want
WE WILL HOLD THE LINE
sry this is the real one

Modifié par c3pu2, 19 mars 2012 - 09:53 .

[DetailedSubset]

why are people building pyramids?